Members WynnD Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 Wonder why a band would invest a couple of thousand into a video and matching outfits when nearly half of it's members use the band income as additional real income. If we were making $20K each a year I would think differently, but this year we haven't broken $4K. (And we don't have a NYE gig for the first time in 5 years.) All the talk about taking it the next level while pushing the PA towards failure but only recognizing increasing volume as the answer to all PA problems. (Come on. How can turning up reduce feedback issues?) This is quickly becoming a train to jump off of. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 You need them to turn down. I don't know what it will take. Maybe someone else should take over supplying the PA. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted November 21, 2013 Author Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 Used to think that becoming louder was the only problem. Now they want to tap into the band's income for videos and new outfits. Won't be easy for 3 of us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 WynnD wrote: Wonder why a band would invest a couple of thousand into a video and matching outfits when nearly half of it's members use the band income as additional real income. If we were making $20K each a year I would think differently, but this year we haven't broken $4K. (And we don't have a NYE gig for the first time in 5 years.) All the talk about taking it the next level while pushing the PA towards failure but only recognizing increasing volume as the answer to all PA problems. (Come on. How can turning up reduce feedback issues?) This is quickly becoming a train to jump off of. just say no, you are not interested in that. If other bandmates feel the same way ,, they join in and say no. Dont make a big deal about it. even if you are out voted. stick with a firm no. Refuse to fight or debate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kevin T Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 First time ever i refused to help pay for studio time for lead singer/songwriter tunes.i did donate my plauing time and help mix down to the recording.I have waisted hundreds on orig rrcordings only to get bubcus back ...never again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLScott86 Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 With what ends in mind? You're doing covers, right? Not that it's that important, but you shouldn't exactly be going for artistry in the video. It just needs to represent what you do. is there a plan for these investments, or is it just throwing crap against the wall? Having a video does nothing on its own, but it's a tool you can use. Are other bands in the area making money? Are you competing against bands who do have these things and are making more money? Are they a better package? There are just a ton of chicken and egg questions, but one thing that is almost a certainty, more volume is going to do more harm than good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Professor Tom Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 For proper players who love proper music it's over and has been for a while now. I have now retired from playing music and it's sad but I still have some wonderful memories. Maybe that's all any of us have a right to expect. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members New Trail Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 WynnD wrote: Wonder why a band would invest a couple of thousand into a video and matching outfits when nearly half of it's members use the band income as additional real income. If we were making $20K each a year I would think differently, but this year we haven't broken $4K. (And we don't have a NYE gig for the first time in 5 years.) All the talk about taking it the next level while pushing the PA towards failure but only recognizing increasing volume as the answer to all PA problems. (Come on. How can turning up reduce feedback issues?) This is quickly becoming a train to jump off of. It sounds to me like the other guys in the band want to push for greater success, and you don't for some reason. I don't know what the cost of a video and matching suits is, but if having those things means you make $5 or 6, or 10K each next year would it not be money well spent? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SpaceNorman Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 WynnD wrote: Wonder why a band would invest a couple of thousand into a video and matching outfits when nearly half of it's members use the band income as additional real income. If we were making $20K each a year I would think differently, but this year we haven't broken $4K. (And we don't have a NYE gig for the first time in 5 years.) Hopefully you realize you've laid out a classic "chicken and egg" conundrum. Whenever I talk to guys in what I know to be competent bands that are struggling to find gigs - it almost always ends up that they have virtually zero marketing plan and even less marketing material to sell themselves with. If you don't have a quality video today - you've got a very likely explanation as to why you're not gigging much. In today's market, if you can't provide prospective clients with quality audio / video - you simply can't compete with bands that can. Sure, what "quality video" should cost can be debated all day long ... however in the end it's always a sum greater than zero. WynnD wrote: All the talk about taking it the next level while pushing the PA towards failure but only recognizing increasing volume as the answer to all PA problems. (Come on. How can turning up reduce feedback issues?) This is quickly becoming a train to jump off of. Having never heard any of your projects in person - I can't offer an objective opinion regarding your band's volume. I can say however, that over the 6 years I've been a forum regular -nobody comes close to you when it comes to expressing issues with volume. I'm not passing judgement as to whether you're right or wrong - simply pointing out that you're in a class by yourself in terms of volume being a "hot button". Whenever I find myself in situations where everybody around me is OK with something and I'm the only one having a problem with it - I tend to tread lightly and look to see why I am so different. There are times when you simply gotta go with what you feel and stand alone ... but, you best be certain that it is them and not you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 SpaceNorman wrote: WynnD wrote: Wonder why a band would invest a couple of thousand into a video and matching outfits when nearly half of it's members use the band income as additional real income. If we were making $20K each a year I would think differently, but this year we haven't broken $4K. (And we don't have a NYE gig for the first time in 5 years.) Hopefully you realize you've laid out a classic "chicken and egg" conundrum. Whenever I talk to guys in what I know to be competent bands that are struggling to find gigs - it almost always ends up that they have virtually zero marketing plan and even less marketing material to sell themselves with. If you don't have a quality video today - you've got a very likely explanation as to why you're not gigging much. In today's market, if you can't provide prospective clients with quality audio / video - you simply can't compete with bands that can. Sure, what "quality video" should cost can be debated all day long ... however in the end it's always a sum greater than zero. WynnD wrote: All the talk about taking it the next level while pushing the PA towards failure but only recognizing increasing volume as the answer to all PA problems. (Come on. How can turning up reduce feedback issues?) This is quickly becoming a train to jump off of. Having never heard any of your projects in person - I can't offer an objective opinion regarding your band's volume. I can say however, that over the 6 years I've been a forum regular -nobody comes close to you when it comes to expressing issues with volume. I'm not passing judgement as to whether you're right or wrong - simply pointing out that you're in a class by yourself in terms of volume being a "hot button". Whenever I find myself in situations where everybody around me is OK with something and I'm the only one having a problem with it - I tend to tread lightly and look to see why I am so different. There are times when you simply gotta go with what you feel and stand alone ... but, you best be certain that it is them and not you. I think the best tool to fight the loud issue with a band is just measure it. Phones have aps that will put the loud thing into a format that its pretty hard to ingnore. We had a shift mgr at the home dig on our butts hard about our volume with the classic rock trio. We knew we were not too loud. We shut her up with a read out of the numbers. I knew it was just a matter of she had a little power when the owners were on their day off and she was going to use it. We were down so low that pretty well nothing was going out the mains so we knew she was full of crap. It was fun to march her ass over by the blender at the bar and show her what those numbers were reading out after she saw the reading from the band.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 21, 2013 Members Share Posted November 21, 2013 I just think matchy matchy looks kinda sharp. We have a couple Christmas parties coming up. Everyone will be dressed up, so to dress similar, makes us look like a band. I liked it last time. I dunno. That doesn't mean matching Armani suits. Just going with a common color or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 Maybe you can refer to that night. I know I generally can't "hear myself" through the FOH. If my solo is cranked and I can "hear it" through the FOH, I KNOW it's pretty much too loud, and ill back myself down a bit. Are you building your monitor mix around the drums? What is the loudest instrument on stage? It's almost like you have to sit the band down and hold a Stage Sound 101. Lesson number one, every member of the band has to think about the band first, and themselves second. They have to realize and understand their part in the mix. It's not the ME ME ME show, it's the US show. Everyone (I assume) will have their chance to shine and take their solos. When they aren't playing a solo or lead, they have to sit back down in the mix. Guitar amps should be used as a personal monitor, not to feed the crowd at large. Maybe heard somewhat by the people in front of the stage, but not trying to get sound to the back of the room. We mix from the stage a lot of the time, both guitarists have volume pedals. We set our lead volumes, with myself out front via wireless. Then we back off the volume for rhythm. When its my turn to solo, I hit the gas and I'm out front. The main thing is, once things are set, don't turn up during the night. If anything I can put more guitar in my monitor without affecting anyone else. Drums & bass should try to lock up together. Our keyboard player uses a small amp, and a volume pedal as well. She is DI'd into the board, and is our "more me" person in the band, if anyone. I do have to explain that not every song had lead keys. Lol every time. But I think she gets it. I have to get after her to SING when she sings. She doesn't project as good as she could, and her mic is usually running pretty hoy, juuuuuuuuuust a little under feeding back. I tell her she has 3 choices. 1: SING LOUDER. I know if myself or the other guitarist/singer were to "check check" her mic we'd blow our heads off. 2: move around less with the mic, because of the null points it can hit hit spots if she moves around too much. 3: we always have to mind her monitor placement since the keys can end up in the way. Our monitors are 300W YX15's for bass and drums and 200W YX12's for the rest. So it's not like we are running 800W per monitor. Our drummers nick name is BamBam, he used to be a REALLY heavy hitter but he's reined himself in in the past fee years, more dynamics, playing for the room. When we practice we use Marshall CD10's, tiny practice amps and it works, because we are in a basement room, and he doesn't have to kill the kit to be heard. Again, he's thinking of the band first, and how he fits in. When I'm playing rhythm, ill back it off to where I'm above "barely hearing it" but not much. There's a definite difference between my lead and rhythm volumes. I've never measured it, so I can't say there's a 3db difference. But there is a difference. Same with tone. I love chorus when I'm practicing, but it cuts through and fits in the mix better if I run my tone dry, so that's what I do. Again, putting the band and overall mix first. I pride myself on not having feedback, and having enough rig for the gig for what we do. I don't use feedback eliminates, and I don't totally carve up the monitor mixes to get the ultimate GBF. I find sometimes by doing that, you can end up losing a lot of the meat. I'll back down the last 3 or 4 GEQ faders just a bit on the monitors which buys me a bit of leeway. I had a video of me dialing in my monitors and I was pointing a line 6 XD-V75 at the monitor with no squealing. It wasn't at full gig volume but it was pretty dn loud. I might have the video somewhere. But yeah. The first step is understanding that you guys are a team, and you have to work together for the good of the band, or else you're just working against each other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 the bottom line with instruments is ,, if you can hear yourself real well on stage you are too loud. You want to be able to everyone in the mix about the same as you hear yourself which means you wont be able to hear yourself real well. Lead vocals are on top of the mix with back ups stacked just under the lead vocals. With solos you can either dig in a little harder to get up on top , or turn up a touch. Loud is not where its at ,, its stage mix and a good balance where the vocals and lyrics are the focal point of the band. rolling your own sound and playing big stages are the same.. A good stage mix is just rolling your own ,, sound re enforcement is just pumping the stage mix out front. Some guys never get this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members New Trail Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 StratGuy22 wrote: .......1: SING LOUDER. I know if myself or the other guitarist/singer were to "check check" her mic we'd blow our heads off. ....... How do you do that? Not to sidetrack this thread but some people just don't have a loud singing voice (I don't). How do you just sing louder? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 I tell her to think about when she's yelling at her kids. Just like that, but back it off a touch. Then I sing into my mic quietly, and then I SING into my mic. It's an ongoing process though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLScott86 Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 Sounds like a stage volume issue, not one out front. Turn down the amps and let the PA work. Then you can use your monitors the way they're intended and it will free up FOH. If there are tone snobs get an a ttenuator or something. Just turn your amps down. That is the most basic and important aspect of getting a good mix. With to much stage volume no amount of PA is going to fix the problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 Like I said. A fairly quiet voice that requires her monitor so loud it's pretty much on the edge of feeding back. Other than that, all I can do is back her monitor off a bit, and it is what it is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 StratGuy22 wrote: Drums & bass should try to lock up together. Our keyboard player uses a small amp, and a volume pedal as well. She is DI'd into the board, and is our "more me" person in the band, if anyone. I do have to explain that not every song had lead keys. Lol every time. But I think she gets it. I have to get after her to SING when she sings. She doesn't project as good as she could, and her mic is usually running pretty hoy, juuuuuuuuuust a little under feeding back. I tell her she has 3 choices. 1: SING LOUDER. I know if myself or the other guitarist/singer were to "check check" her mic we'd blow our heads off. 2: move around less with the mic, because of the null points it can hit hit spots if she moves around too much. 3: we always have to mind her monitor placement since the keys can end up in the way. Might be time to consider IEMs. At least for her anyway. That way she can blast herself as loud as she needs to in her monitor without causing feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 True enough. We have reasonable volumes. I mean projecting, and getting up and personal on the mic. More mic technique. I'm not saying to become Wendy O. Williams by any means but project, and to watch that she's not dropping the mic down, accidentally pointing them at the monitors etc. And she likes the reverb on 11. Great gal though, love her to bits. Baby steps. We're getting there. It's just little things. It's definitely not a dancing with feedback all night ****-show. By any means. Mainly projecting and greatly getting up on the mic. And I'm probably describing me being harder on her than I am. Mainly when she's doing leads. Here's a quick snippet from a wedding. The drummer monkeys it up a bit while I'm videoing him, as soon as the cameras off, you can hear he's backed off. She sounds good in this video on backups. (Old light rig) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLScott86 Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 Getting coaching to learn to project is one thing- a sound guy telling you to "sing louder" is another. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 True enough. Sometimes it's hard to get something across in words. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 StratGuy22 wrote: True enough. We have reasonable volumes. I mean projecting, and getting up and personal on the mic. More mic technique. I'm not saying to become Wendy O. Williams by any means but project, and to watch that she's not dropping the mic down, accidentally pointing them at the monitors etc. And she likes the reverb on 11. Great gal though, love her to bits. Baby steps. We're getting there. It's just little things. It's definitely not a dancing with feedback all night ****-show. By any means. Mainly projecting and greatly getting up on the mic. And I'm probably describing me being harder on her than I am. Mainly when she's doing leads. Here's a quick snippet from a wedding. The drummer monkeys it up a bit while I'm videoing him, as soon as the cameras off, you can hear he's backed off. She sounds good in this video on backups. (Old light rig) Na you guys are not that loud. I could not hear the keys though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLScott86 Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 By the way, StratGuy, I totally got what you were saying. You can't mic up a pin dropping on a stage full of horns and expect to hear anything but feedback. Just piling on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted November 22, 2013 Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 I loooove guitar in some of those songs as well. Definately helps to fill out the soundscape. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WynnD Posted November 22, 2013 Author Members Share Posted November 22, 2013 guess if I can get my bass and guitar into the PA we could drop the stage volume. That would help there and we might be able to drop the FOH volume without freaking anyone out. That would allow safer output levels and drop us way out of feedback range. The end result will have to be a full time sound engineer. With already having 7 pieces, it wouldn't cost us much per person. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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