Members TIMKEYS Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 Yes, this is the point I was making about my area. It doesn't matter how good you are, how much added value you bring, etc, if a mediocre band or act can get enough bodies into the club to make the guy money for less, they get the gig. In fact, undercutters don't have to do as well-if I bring in 100 people who spend an average of 10 bucks each but I get 200 dollars as a solo, the club nets 800 dollars after I'm done. Now, if a mediocre guy agrees to do the same gig for 80 bucks, and can attract a crowd to spend the same amount per head, he can get by with about 12 people less to net the same amount for the club. The thing is, a lot of these guys who play for less get all their friends and family to come out and see them when they play, and can ring out a tidy sum at the end of the night. And so can I but if the club has to pay me $120 more than the other guy, well...having me play, even if I'm a better player and entertainer, isn't added value for the owner if it doesn't make him more money. The best solo acts down here still get paid the most money and can get any stage they want to play. They can make 300 a night. They can also work 5 nights a week or more. The second and third string solo acts are getting 50 to 75. You can hire a third stringer for 50 bucks a night. These top acts have a following. Full band gigs are rough because of the number of seats in the clubs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 The best solo acts down here still get paid the most money and can get any stage they want to play. They can make 300 a night. They can also work 5 nights a week or more. The second and third string solo acts are getting 50 to 75. You can hire a third stringer for 50 bucks a night. These top acts have a following. Full band gigs are rough because of the number of seats in the clubs. That would be nice to see here. Unfortunately, we have no venues that seat more than about 200 people, and those are very few. Most seat 50 to 125. There's not a solo around here who could get 300. I have to go out of town to get 200. Weeknights won't pay a solo more than 100 bucks tops; most are in the 40 to 75 dollar range. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TIMKEYS Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 That would be nice to see here. Unfortunately, we have no venues that seat more than about 200 people, and those are very few. Most seat 50 to 125. There's not a solo around here who could get 300. I have to go out of town to get 200. Weeknights won't pay a solo more than 100 bucks tops; most are in the 40 to 75 dollar range. Our top solo acts are exceptional entertainers ,, they can draw like a band. They are also full time professional entertainers. The key to it is be able to have as good a following as a band. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted October 18, 2011 Members Share Posted October 18, 2011 Our top solo acts are exceptional entertainers ,, they can draw like a band. They are also full time professional entertainers. The key to it is be able to have as good a following as a band. Thats how it was/is in south FL. The key was to get a crowd, and keep them drinking there somehow. I would do it by basically making it a party; drinking joking carrying on. Made alot of cash. Still do that at certain gigs, but the liver is killin' me! Hahahaha Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted October 19, 2011 Members Share Posted October 19, 2011 Pardon me for not reading all the posts and perhaps repeating what has already been said (I'm short on time today).We are not union employees, even if we belong to the AFofM. We are all separate small businesses. We "sell" our wares, our entertainment to others.As a small business, we have to figure out ways to make our living. There are several different 'formulas'. You can take the "Wal Mart" approach or the "Saks Fifth Avenue" approach or anything in between.And remember, the person hiring you has his/her/their needs as well. A bar/lounge/restaurant needs to make a profit. A private party can be on a budget or want something of high quality (which they may be willing to pay for). Some people drive a Kia and others a Benz.I don't need to tell you that right now the economy is hurting. Wall street and corporate greed have taken 25% of the money in the USA and put it in the hands of the upper 1% (who pay almost no tax). That means the rest of us are hurting.Since over 90% of us are hurting, we aren't willing to spend as much money as we did in the Clinton years when the economy was booming. Everything is down. Collectible guitars have lost half their value, people are going out to eat and drink less frequently, most people are searching for the best deals for their hard earned dollars. That unfortunately applies to our industry as well Most of us are guilty as well. Did you look on the Internet for a better price on strings or reeds when you could have purchased them at your local ma and pa music store? Did you get that microphone on the 'net as well to save a few bucks?What can we do?I had to lower my prices to keep working - I do this to make a living, and we are one of the best duos in the area. We have a quality product, we work hard, we are very entertaining, we are talented, and we are professional see http://www.s-cats.comBut we have our limit. We played in a particular yacht club for about 20 years. A trio came in and charged one third of what we were charging. We don't play their anymore. But we found another yacht club to play for, at slightly less per night less than we were charging the other one. The people in this club appreciate quality more than economy. We feel lucky.There are other gigs we turn down simply because they won't pay enough. If they want someone inferior, they can have Wal Mart entertainment. There is nothing I can do about that.On the other hand, there are other gigs on "off nights/days" for people who hire us often that we play for short money. One particular gig has had numerous spin-off parties that make it worth our while to play for the short money. Besides, it's a week-day that we can't book readily anyway. Another entertainment purchaser hires us in the slow season as well as the busy season, so the lower pay averages out over the course of the year. We make less when the living is good but more when the living is lean. There is a balance to be maintained and each gig has to be weighed on its own merits.It's getting harder and harder to make a decent living as a musician. And the part-timer who just wants to get his/her kicks out and is willing to play for almost nothing makes it more difficult. But you can't stop that (I wish we could).Thanks to wide-screen TV and a hefty cable subscription price each month, people are entertaining themselves more at home. That means fewer dollars for the night clubs and restaurants. That means fewer places to play. That decreases the demand while the supply of musicians stays the same.It's a very unfortunate fact of life. But it's one we have to deal with.I can't tell you how to compete with your fellow musical acts. You have to figure out that for yourself.Somewhere there is a balance of quality (being better than your competitors) and price that is the correct balance for you in your local area. You have to find it.If it makes it any easier for you, we made our most money when Clinton was president of the US. The illegal and unnecessary war that was financed on our country's credit card has hurt all but the richest of the rich (who profit on lending us the money and supplying the war consumables). The Bush era destroyed our economy, and it isn't going to get better for a long time. Until then, everybody has to tighten our collective belts.Insights and incites by Notes ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Howie22 Posted October 20, 2011 Members Share Posted October 20, 2011 Getting everyone together to set prices is called collusion and is illegal in the United States (I Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pikappant82 Posted October 20, 2011 Members Share Posted October 20, 2011 Alright, here's the scoop. I'm going to describe the area I play, and then I'll get to the problem and you can lend me your thoughts... Scene: Fairly large city with approximately 7 live music venues on the downtown strip that relies heavily on the local college for bar patronage. There are approximately 10-11 amazing musicians (myself included - not to sound egotistical, you'll understand in a minute) who work together to try and get fair rates as we all play the same places and help each other out with gigs when we can. We all work solo gigs for nothing less than $150/4hr gig on a weekend and $200 (minimum) on Thursday through Saturday. We all get along for the most part, and we consider ourselves almost to be a musical union of sorts. Problem: There is a couple of new musicians on the scene who have been going around undercutting the veterans. In fact, one of these acts actually totally edged out one of our longest standing musicians who was the biggest advocate for getting fair pay. Example of this? They're doing 4hr gigs for $80 on a weeknight at one of the bigger downtown venues. This has caused a significant pay decrease at a couple of the venues that hire us because this guy will play for nothing even though we fill their bars with drinking customers. Many of the vets have tried to be cool about it and talk to the main instigator of all this but this person continues to lie and brush everyone off. I'm fairly new at the gigging and so I haven't said anything because I don't want to build a bad reputation, but I never let myself get less than whats fair, nor do I offer. I try and talk to the other musicians in town who play at the same places I do and we work together. I'll get a gig somewhere I know so-and-so has played and I'll call and ask, "Hey, whats the pay like here? Is it worth it/fair?" and vice versa. This guy however just charges whatever he pleases and isn't even to the caliber that many of the big draw musicians are, yet he's taking over the market and pissing a lot of people off to the point were some of my friends won't even play downtown anymore unless it's venue this lowballer doesn't play. When is enough enough? I know that people undercut all the time and it's not uncommon but it's destroying my livelihood and seriously killing the amount of people who are going out to the live music venues. I've noticed a significant decrease in the last six months since he started playing and on a Thursday night, where I'll usually end up staying an extra hour on a gig because the bar is rammed to the ceiling, it's crickets chirping an hour before I'm supposed to end. Has anyone ever dealt with someone like this before? Is there anything you can do? I'm trying to get out of town gigs that pay fairly like many of the other vets have because they've all but given up. I want to tell this guy where to go and how to get there but I also don't want to ruin the good report I have with all the downtown industry staff. Conundrum? I think so. I understand your frustration. But you have to keep in mind, some of these folks may not be trying to "undercut" you. They may be starting out and just trying to market themselves. They have to start somewhere. And since these venues may not know as much about what they have to offer, they may not be willing to pay them what they are giving you (their reliable musicians). Also realize that most venues value providing a variety of entertainment for their customers. I'm sure they value your talent, and thats why they keep you coming back. But from time to time (from a customer standpoint) I like to hear different bands sometimes. You and your group of 7 musician friends can't completely dominate, or your customer base may dry out after a while. Not to say that they don't enjoy seeing/hearing you perform. But how many times can you go and hear the same band (over and over again). You had to start somewhere too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pikappant82 Posted October 20, 2011 Members Share Posted October 20, 2011 You are providing a service to a customer (venue and listeners). How bad do they need you or want you to perform? Will the amount they invest in you boost their sales profits enough to make it worthwhile? Supply and demand (more musicians=less pay, or no pay) go to Nashville.....musicians EVERYWHERE=much harder to get a job Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bigboy78 Posted October 21, 2011 Members Share Posted October 21, 2011 In my area, 500k is not rich. I'm sorry, it's just not. It's well off. The gov will give you a very effective haircut on that 500k and after paying a million or two for a house, 13-26k a year in property tax, 1,000. a month for pre school(if you can ur kid get in) you'd be surprised how un rich that is in these parts. Not that I'm crying for people who make 500k, not at all. But I have an idea what it takes to make that, and it ain't easy. I have a friend who does that well. He started out as a truck driver for a very small company and now, thirty years later, owns the company. He earned every dime. I don't consider him rich. He's in his fifties, and you can see the thirty years of ass busting on his face. . 500K is $10,000 a week. Even if you are working 24hours a day you're still on more than $400 an hour. That is an immense amount of money, anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MartinC Posted October 21, 2011 Members Share Posted October 21, 2011 I agree, it's a lot of money. Rich? I guess it depends. If you live in South Carolina, probably. San Francisco, I don't think so. The taxes will take close to half for openers leaving you with 250k, or 21k a month to spend or save. You could spend 5-6k on a home loan here easy without buying something anywhere near the most expensive places, which can go for tens of millions. I've worked in homes that rent for 25k a month, so that gives you an idea of what kind of money some people have here. I'd agree if you can afford 25k for rent, your probably rich. 500K is $10,000 a week. Even if you are working 24hours a day you're still on more than $400 an hour. That is an immense amount of money, anywhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted October 21, 2011 Moderators Share Posted October 21, 2011 thread has been 'pruned' to remove heady discussion of taxes, which is not related to the topic of the thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fingerpicker Posted October 22, 2011 Members Share Posted October 22, 2011 If it makes it any easier for you, we made our most money when Clinton was president of the US. Me too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 We'd been asked about doing a Christmas gig for a local church; not a fundraiser, just entertainment. I insisted that we get $100 each, so $200 for both of us--they're not poor and we'd have to supply all the equipment. They wound up hiring a woman for $50 in credits at the local grocery store. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Notes_Norton Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 Some people buy at K-Mart and others at Saks. Some buy a Ford Focus others a Ferrari. Some people think saving money is more important than getting quality or style. Some people buy at their local M&P store to get better service, others buy on-line for the best price. Some buy a cheap Strat knock-off, others need the Signature model Fender Strat. We all have to balance between price, convenience, service, style, quality and numerous other factors when making a purchase. If the entertainment purchaser would prefer to save money instead of getting a quality act, there is nothing you can do about that. They got what they paid for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pogo97 Posted December 1, 2011 Members Share Posted December 1, 2011 What's a bit ironic is that I've strongly supported her playing (she's quite loony but a good player and entertaining) even to having a local service club buy and give her a decent electric piano. She needs this much more than I do. But, damn! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members charlie13 Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Well, since we all are in the same boat as far as the economy vs. gigs, let me impart my 2 cents of wisdom. There are a couple of things I do that help me when I'm dealing with a restaurant owner or prospective customer to land a gig. First, I explain to the owner how I can help bring in business. I tell the owner that I am very experienced in performing in restaurants and know my way around a crowd. I back that up with references to other places I've played and can produce recommendations and referrals on the spot, if need be. I explain that I can cover a wide variety of music and can pretty much satisfy just about anybody that walks through the door. Now, here's where I may do something that others may not agree with. I offer to "audition" for a couple of hours for a meal if I see that the owner is hesitant to try me out because he's not sure if he can afford entertainment. I did that last May at a local seafood restaurant and ended up playing on the deck all summer long up to November, and at a rate that was worth my while. Gig started at 6:30PM until 9:30PM. During this time, I honed my skills as a solo artist, made a steady gig paycheck, bought some gear I needed to improve my solo gig setup, and gave away a ton of biz cards, which led to more gigs...the sweet private party types. Sometimes, it's like they say...."the proofs's in the pudding" I had to show the owner by audience response that they were enjoying me being there. Well, that's what happened. Customer after customer was remarking to the owner (listening while breaking down equipment) what a good idea he had by having "live" entertainment in the restaurant. They said they would come back and bring friends. After that, the owner was calling me to see when I would be available and we worked out a good, but flexible schedule which allowed me to take off and do private parties where the real money is. The second thing I would do is to use an online booking agency such as Gig Masters or Gig Salad. I joined "Gig Salad" over a year ago and I usually get a several gig leads once a week. I have a free account and I have already played over a dozen gigs from my leads from Gig Salad. Best paying solo work I have done thus far. No comissions to pay. You set the rate. Sometimes prospective customers will provide a budget they would like to stay in. As a solo artist you generally have more "wiggle" room with pricing than would a band. But, it has been my experience to set the rate high at first, then if price is the issue...you know who you're dealing with. I never cut my price any more than $50The way I see it, if $50 is standing in the way of getting booked or not, then I'll take that gamble. If they want to knock my price down further, I generally walk away. Some folks just have to feel they are getting a bargain. But, remember...my price is high from the start and I have already figured in my "wiggle" room. Another thing I do especially on out of town gigs is to charge for two persons. The first being me, and the second being my gear and transportation. That way if I blow a speaker, have a flat tire, drop a laptop, whatever...I have funds left over to pay for those items. Now, the only thing left to do is "dress the part", "act the part", and stand and deliver. Charlie Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members toddkuen Posted December 14, 2011 Members Share Posted December 14, 2011 Funny, my son-in-law started a successful lawn care business by doing it "cheaper" than the competition: He started with a home lawnmower in the trunk of a Hundya - advertised on craigslist - hustled a lot... Guess he couldn't be a musician... BTW: Where would new musicians come from if they weren't allowed to get cheap gigs? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TieDyedDevil Posted December 15, 2011 Members Share Posted December 15, 2011 When is enough enough? I know that people undercut all the time and it's not uncommon but it's destroying my livelihood and seriously killing the amount of people who are going out to the live music venues. I've noticed a significant decrease in the last six months since he started playing and on a Thursday night, where I'll usually end up staying an extra hour on a gig because the bar is rammed to the ceiling, it's crickets chirping an hour before I'm supposed to end. I skimmed the entire thread looking to see whether anyone had picked up on this paragraph. I didn't see anything, so... I'm unclear on the relationship of cause and effect implied here. You seem to be saying that the lowballer has driven away the client Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Izolde-Asia Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Alright, here's the scoop. I'm going to describe the area I play, and then I'll get to the problem and you can lend me your thoughts... Scene: Fairly large city with approximately 7 live music venues on the downtown strip that relies heavily on the local college for bar patronage. There are approximately 10-11 amazing musicians (myself included - not to sound egotistical, you'll understand in a minute) who work together to try and get fair rates as we all play the same places and help each other out with gigs when we can. We all work solo gigs for nothing less than $150/4hr gig on a weekend and $200 (minimum) on Thursday through Saturday. We all get along for the most part, and we consider ourselves almost to be a musical union of sorts. Problem: There is a couple of new musicians on the scene who have been going around undercutting the veterans. In fact, one of these acts actually totally edged out one of our longest standing musicians who was the biggest advocate for getting fair pay. Example of this? They're doing 4hr gigs for $80 on a weeknight at one of the bigger downtown venues. This has caused a significant pay decrease at a couple of the venues that hire us because this guy will play for nothing even though we fill their bars with drinking customers. Many of the vets have tried to be cool about it and talk to the main instigator of all this but this person continues to lie and brush everyone off. I'm fairly new at the gigging and so I haven't said anything because I don't want to build a bad reputation, but I never let myself get less than whats fair, nor do I offer. I try and talk to the other musicians in town who play at the same places I do and we work together. I'll get a gig somewhere I know so-and-so has played and I'll call and ask, "Hey, whats the pay like here? Is it worth it/fair?" and vice versa. This guy however just charges whatever he pleases and isn't even to the caliber that many of the big draw musicians are, yet he's taking over the market and pissing a lot of people off to the point were some of my friends won't even play downtown anymore unless it's venue this lowballer doesn't play. When is enough enough? I know that people undercut all the time and it's not uncommon but it's destroying my livelihood and seriously killing the amount of people who are going out to the live music venues. I've noticed a significant decrease in the last six months since he started playing and on a Thursday night, where I'll usually end up staying an extra hour on a gig because the bar is rammed to the ceiling, it's crickets chirping an hour before I'm supposed to end. Has anyone ever dealt with someone like this before? Is there anything you can do? I'm trying to get out of town gigs that pay fairly like many of the other vets have because they've all but given up. I want to tell this guy where to go and how to get there but I also don't want to ruin the good report I have with all the downtown industry staff. Conundrum? I think so. Before reading anyone elses replies, which may cause a repeat, sorry, $80 for 4 hours ??? And you are charging $150 to $200?? Maybe I'm not understanding what it is you do.... But it sounds like you are already under cutting the rates. Maybe you should start asking for door and charge $5 a head Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BlueStrat Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Before reading anyone elses replies, which may cause a repeat, sorry, $80 for 4 hours ??? And you are charging $150 to $200?? Maybe I'm not understanding what it is you do.... But it sounds like you are already under cutting the rates. Maybe you should start asking for door and charge $5 a head Maybe you aren't understanding the situation. Undercutters are playing for 20 bucks an hour. She and her friends are getting $37.50 to $50/ hour each . How can she be undercutting the rates when she's getting twice what the undercutters are getting? And by the way, where I live, $ 75 for a 3 hour solo gig is standard, $100-150 is a weekend price for 4 hours. I can get $200 if I go out of town. I have never seen a place with a solo performer getting a cover charge unless it's for a national act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members pikappant82 Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Welcome to the USA, where supply and demand rules the economy. We all choose our professions, and regardless of what our professions are, we are all expendable and can be outsourced. Business owners are not concerned about our livelihoods. They are in it to make a dollar. If they spend X amount of $ for your service, they expect XX amount increase in their returns for their investment in you. When I lived in Washington State, my roomate owned a bar. The bar packed itself with customers most every weekend with or without live music. But he enjoyed having music sometimes. He got really sick and tired of musicians setting their demands and complaining to him about how much they should get paid, getting free food and drinks, how long they should play, etc. What they had to realize is that he did not need them. They need him for work. He finally set his terms and said hey I like what you do, but if you want to play here this is what you get. Take it or leave it. He was always fair, I think. Usually compensated based on number of musicians in band and length of play. So a 4 piece band would make more than a solo act. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 Welcome to the USA, where supply and demand rules the economy. We all choose our professions, and regardless of what our professions are, we are all expendable and can be outsourced. Business owners are not concerned about our livelihoods. They are in it to make a dollar. If they spend X amount of $ for your service, they expect XX amount increase in their returns for their investment in you. ^^^^THIS. Pretty much, anyway. If you want to get paid well, provide a product the client has a reason to want to pay more for. If all you are is just "live music"....that's a pretty low bar and there are hundreds of people around who can meet that. If you're just "something to dance to".... heck, then you don't even have to be 'live' to fill that demand. Be something special. Otherwise you're of not much more value than the dishwashers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members MattMayfield Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 ^^^^THIS. Pretty much, anyway.If you want to get paid well, provide a product the client has a reason to want to pay more for. If all you are is just "live music"....that's a pretty low bar and there are hundreds of people around who can meet that. If you're just "something to dance to".... heck, then you don't even have to be 'live' to fill that demand.Be something special. Otherwise you're of not much more value than the dishwashers. If anything, a not-special musician is of less value than a dishwasher. A restaurant can't operate at all without clean dishes! If dishwashers all agreed not to undercut each other and insist on $30 per hour, the restaurants would find a way to pay them. Musicians? The restaurants would just do without. To people resenting undercutters: it's not going to help to eliminate undercutters - we musicians are mostly screwed. It's a race to the bottom, except for the few special ones. All you can do is try your hardest to be special and hope it works. :-/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators daddymack Posted April 12, 2012 Moderators Share Posted April 12, 2012 but, going back to the OP....if the undercutter is killing the business at the venue, across the other nights, by 'injuring the reputation' of the room, you have to think the owner would figure that out. In the other case of the owner who already had a packed room, and added music because he liked it, there is nothing wrong with the owner setting his value on the music and paying what he felt it was worth....in fact, in the olden days, the symbiosis between the venue and the musician mainly rested on the venue, not the entertainment, except in those rare cases where the act was just that good... I know in vitually all of the rooms I worked in my early years, we were not the reason there was a crowd in the bar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members glepko Posted April 12, 2012 Members Share Posted April 12, 2012 hmmmm - no offense to the OP but there is a fair amount of externalizing and blame going on in your words. not to be all metaphysical, but if all you want to see through your rosie glasses is the bad stuff leaking in from the peripherals - that's all you're going to see, and you'll get a lot more of it. as humans we have the built in capacity to adapt, advance, or alter course. best wishes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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