Speakers

[richardmac]

I was out and about today and one of the things I did was check out the new EV ELX112 speakers. I'm satisfied with what I already have, but I was curious, because EV stuff is normally not "inexpensive" (a relative term) and the ELX112 are two way 12 inch woofer-based speakers for $299 each, which is a lot cheaper than any of their other two way 12 inch speakers. So I gave them a listen today, and I think they sounded GREAT for the money. I think they sounded like the best $299 two way I've heard. Thinking that if I ever need to build a bigger PA I'd buy them. AND they're slanted and can be used as monitors.

 

The sound guy, while I was there, talked a customer out of buying the Mackie Thumps. He said that the amps inside them were failing left and right, and you can find a ton of them reconditioned on ebay for that reason. I haven't verified, but I thought it was kind of interesting.

 

If anyone else has auditioned the ELX112's, I'd be interested in your take on them - I really liked them.

[Telecruiser]

First off, I would never consider a non powered speaker. EV makes great equipment but passive cabs are not for me. It also weighs the same as my JBL PRX 612 cab and the JBL has a 1000w class D amp designed and EQ'd just for that cab. Not quite in the same price area as the EV though. The $299 price isn't a bad price point though if it sounds as good as you say.

[BlueStrat]

Well, to each his own, but I have avoided powered speakers because I like to mix and match my system for whatever gig I'm doing. I have 3 sets of speakers, (all different sized), plus a pair of 18 subs, two powered mixers and a rack with two power amps and a 4 channel board and a 16 channel board. If I have powered speakers, they're the ones I have to use for all my gigs.

[TIMKEYS]

 

Well, to each his own, but I have avoided powered speakers because I like to mix and match my system for whatever gig I'm doing. I have 3 sets of speakers, (all different sized), plus a pair of 18 subs, two powered mixers and a rack with two power amps and a 4 channel board and a 16 channel board. If I have powered speakers, they're the ones I have to use for all my gigs.

 

 

I think if you are starting from scratch ,, powered speakers is the way to go. If you have amps already ,, then passive is your best bang. You can still mix and match with powered speakers. the big thing is are you starting from scratch or do you already have some of the stuff from other systems.

[richardmac]

I'm with BlueStrat - I'm kinda old fashioned about it. I have my main speakers, lil' subs, and combo mixer, but I also have a pair of Peavey PR12's, a 12 ch Yamaha unpowered board, and a Mackie rack mount power amp in a case. So no matter what breaks I can swap out a replacement. AND, if I decide that I need the ELX's, I can save money because I don't have to buy the powered version. And passive speakers don't require a power cable being run to them.

 

But the powered speakers are nice in that you don't have to worry about what amp to use with them. And you usually get a crap load of power.

 

But if you're at a gig and your two mains are powered and you blow a woofer, you can't just slap another speaker up, unless you've got a spare powered speaker.

 

Actually, I'd like to get a powered small speaker to use as a monitor. I'm using the Mackie amp and PR 12 speakers as a monitoring system right now and it's a pain. A nice two way powered cab that is slanted would work very well for me.

[Voltan]

i'm interested in the same cabs... i currently run an older set of jbl SR4722 that kick ass but i think the specs are better on the EV's... i'm happy with my power and mixer/etc.. and would hate to trade everything out and start from scratch...

[richardmac]

Well, I was asking because I have a bias in favor of EV speakers, and to me they sounded better than any $299 speaker I've ever heard. But like I said, I'm not impartial. You should check them out - every major music chain is going to have them.

[BlueStrat]

The speakers I use for my solo gig are some 80s Fender speakers I bought in a pawn shop for 75 bucks for the pair. They are 30 degree boxes and the exteriors were in really good shape. Each has a 10" speaker and a horn. I tore the old speakers and horns out and bought some new Eminence 250 watt 10s for 160 dollars for the pair in an online sale, and some used 400 watt horns for another 100. So I got a new set of speakers that sound really nice for around 335 dollars.

[Voltan]

understood rmac... i have a set of 15" EV sro's in a set of cabs too big to haul around... and after all the years spent in bands i like EV's as well as anything else out there... better than most... i think they compare favorably to turbosound, real JBL stuff, or the yorkville elite...

[Notes_Norton]

I'm currently using Carvin LM15s - non-powered with a QSC power amp. I did A/B testing with dozens of brands of passive speakers (Peavey, Mackey, JBL, Samson, EV), and the Carvins blew everything away except for a pair of EV Zx4's that cost twice as much.

 

 

I've been using the non-powered speakers forever (I remember hauling around "voice of the theater" cabinets - of course I was in a bigger band back then and was much younger).

 

 

Non-powered speakers give you flexibility and fewer cables to run. They are also lighter (each LM15 weighs only 32 pounds).

 

However, if I were to start all over again, I'd consider powered speakers for one thing and one thing only. If you lose a power amp, you can probably limp through the rest of the gig using one speaker.

[Vito Corleone]

 

Non-powered speakers give you flexibility and fewer cables to run.

 

 

I guess. But you're hauling around less stuff. Personally I'd rather run an extra power cable or two than deal with a heavier amp rack.

 

They are also lighter (each LM15 weighs only 32 pounds).

 

 

Not necessarily. The JBL PRX 612Ms weight 32.5 lbs each. And again, no power amps.

 

And as far as the "what do you do if you blow a speaker?" stuff---it's much harder to blow a speaker in a powered cab. Of course, there's always the possibility of equipment failure, but that exists with everything. Like you said, with the powered speakers, it's easier to limp by with one side, or one less monitor if you have to. Although that's never happened for us yet in 4 years.

[TIMKEYS]

 

I guess. But you're hauling around less stuff. Personally I'd rather run an extra power cable or two than deal with a heavier amp rack. Not necessarily. The JBL PRX 612Ms weight 32.5 lbs each. And again, no power amps. And as far as the "what do you do if you blow a speaker?" stuff---it's much harder to blow a speaker in a powered cab. Of course, there's always the possibility of equipment failure, but that exists with everything. Like you said, with the powered speakers, it's easier to limp by with one side, or one less monitor if you have to. Although that's never happened for us yet in 4 years.

 

 

we have guys down here turning solo and duo gigs on a single 15 inch powered speaker. It sound find for a patio gig or small bar. These guys all have more gear but like to travel light.

[TIMKEYS]

I'm currently using Carvin LM15s - non-powered with a QSC power amp. I did A/B testing with dozens of brands of passive speakers (Peavey, Mackey, JBL, Samson, EV), and the Carvins blew everything away except for a pair of EV Zx4's that cost twice as much. I've been using the non-powered speakers forever (I remember hauling around "voice of the theater" cabinets - of course I was in a bigger band back then and was much younger). Non-powered speakers give you flexibility and fewer cables to run. They are also lighter (each LM15 weighs only 32 pounds). However, if I were to start all over again, I'd consider powered speakers for one thing and one thing only. If you lose a power amp, you can probably limp through the rest of the gig using one speaker.

 

the voice ,,, you had arrived back in the day when you were running those monsters lol

[Vito Corleone]

 

I think if you are starting from scratch ,, powered speakers is the way to go. If you have amps already ,, then passive is your best bang. You can still mix and match with powered speakers. the big thing is are you starting from scratch or do you already have some of the stuff from other systems.

 

 

I gotta go with Tim on this one, Pat. I'm sure you built your system over a long period of time, so it makes sense to have what you do, but for someone just starting out? You'd get a lot more simplicity, less size and weight, and at least the versatility out of a powered system. Of course, the best stuff costs a lot, but what doesn't these days?

 

And I think the fears of durability of over-stated. Most of those fears seem to come from people who don't own powered speakers. I've been using a pair of Yamaha powered speakers for my keys since 2002 and those things are ugly and beat-to-{censored} at this point. They been dropped, rolled, kicked and basically treated no better than any passive cabs I've ever owned (even though I've tried to be nice to 'em!) and the only things I've ever had wrong with them is I somehow managed to blow a horn (which I very-easily replaced myself) and a had a hum in one that I had to take in for repair. All in all, probably no worse than I would have gotten out of a pair of Yamaha Clubs and a decent power amp over the same period of time. And I would imagine the newer stuff is even more durable.

[TIMKEYS]

 

I gotta go with Tim on this one, Pat. I'm sure you built your system over a long period of time, so it makes sense to have what you do, but for someone just starting out? You'd get a lot more simplicity, less size and weight, and at least the versatility out of a powered system. Of course, the best stuff costs a lot, but what doesn't these days? And I think the fears of durability of over-stated. Most of those fears seem to come from people who don't own powered speakers. I've been using a pair of Yamaha powered speakers for my keys since 2002 and those things are ugly and beat-to-{censored} at this point. They been dropped, rolled, kicked and basically treated no better than any passive cabs I've ever owned (even though I've tried to be nice to 'em!) and the only things I've ever had wrong with them is I somehow managed to blow a horn (which I very-easily replaced myself) and a had a hum in one that I had to take in for repair. All in all, probably no worse than I would have gotten out of a pair of Yamaha Clubs and a decent power amp over the same period of time. And I would imagine the newer stuff is even more durable.

 

 

we have a couple mackie 450s that I picked up for 400 a piece pulling house duty at the bar. they have been in service 7 days a week at the bar for over a year , and I used them in my jam room and with all the little music projects I had in the zoo for a couple years. They are still pluggin away. The eons we use have been around for years in a 5 night a week act. Powered speakers are hell for stout. Those little mackies sound good and they are not what you call top of the line stuff. Decent gear for what they costs me.

[Terry Allan Hall]

Well, to each his own, but I have avoided powered speakers because I like to mix and match my system for whatever gig I'm doing. I have 3 sets of speakers, (all different sized), plus a pair of 18 subs, two powered mixers and a rack with two power amps and a 4 channel board and a 16 channel board. If I have powered speakers, they're the ones I have to use for all my gigs.

 

Agreed...I'm told we're "Old School", BlueStrat, but I, too prefer passive speakers and powered mixers, for the convenience factor and excellent sound.

[fingerpicker]

you are saying those carvins blew the BETTER JBL, Peavey, and EV stuff away??? C'mon what models are we talkin here that is really not believable.

 

EDIT: I use passive speakers because of my current set-up, but for convenience and excellent sound you can make an argument for either set-up. Really does anyone have an open mind on this &*%*%&* forum????

 

(No way those carvins blew away the Prx series--- I have A/B'd them)

[Terry Allan Hall]

you are saying those carvins blew the BETTER JBL, Peavey, and EV stuff away??? C'mon what models are we talkin here that is really not believable. EDIT: I use passive speakers because of my current set-up, but for convenience and excellent sound you can make an argument for either set-up. Really does anyone have an open mind on this &*%*%&* forum???? (No way those carvins blew away the Prx series--- I have A/B'd them)

 

Carvin LM12's (the slightly smaller version of the LM15s) are EXCELLENT cabs, and, IMABO, blow away the competion.

 

I wouldn't use them if they didn't.

[Vito Corleone]

Agreed...I'm told we're "Old School", BlueStrat, but I, too prefer passive speakers and powered mixers, for the convenience factor and excellent sound.

 

Everyone is entitled to their personal preferences for sure, and everyone has their own opinions of what is the most excellent sound as well. But you lose me on "convenience factor". I'm not sure what's more convenient than a powered speaker and the built-in processing that's perfectly tuned for them.

[richardmac]

(in response to fingerpicker) Musicans? Open minds? Bwa ha ha ha ha!!!

 

I don't think anyone will change anyone else's mind on the powered vs. unpowered debate, so you're right. No open minds here. How different is that from Live Sound, where I've seen the exact same debate, though?

 

People will debate in favor of what they already own, usually. But let's do an exercise. I really liked those speakers, so let's assume I'm starting out, price the whole thing out, then discuss convenience and versatility. I have lots of input requirements - I need a decent mixing board, too. What would I buy?

 

UNPOWERED

 

1 pair of EV ELX112 speakers = $600

Yamaha EMX512SC 12 ch mixer, 500 wpc = $570

 

Total = $1,170

 

POWERED

 

1 pair of EV ELX112P active speakers (1,000 watts per speaker) = $1,200

Yamaha 12 ch mixer (MG124c) = $240

 

Total = $1,440

 

 

Trying to do an exact comparison is folly, though. I paired the passive speakers with the 512 because that's what I'd buy in real life. If you wanted to match the 2,000 watts of power you get from the powered EV's, you'd end up spending a lot more on the passive side. PLUS, the MG124c is a better mixing board than the board in the EMX unit. All I could do is spec out what I would actually buy in each case.

 

The above scenario shows that if I were just starting out, I would save some money going unpowered. But the powered system would definitely sound better - there's no doubt in my mind. The EMX amps are not bad, but they're not great sounding.

 

If I have to put a speaker in for repair - in the unpowered situation, I need a replacement speaker. In the powered situation, I need a POWERED replacement speaker. Of course, if my EMX amp croaks, I need an amp AND a mixer as replacement. So it probably evens out.

 

In powered speakers, you don't have a choice as to the power. "You don't actually NEED 1,000 watts? Too bad! You're paying for it! Mwa ha ha! Left to your own devices, you'd probably power this speaker with some 80 watt Behringer piece of push. Now take the power and LIKE it!"

 

There's pros and cons to both sides for sure. I just like that I'm not "all in" on one thing. I could buy a pair of these speakers for only $600 and start using them immediately. I could almost afford that. But I could not almost afford spending double that on the powered versions. I feel like I can be more flexible unpowered.

[richardmac]

 

Everyone is entitled to their personal preferences for sure, and everyone has their own opinions of what is the most excellent sound as well. But you lose me on "convenience factor". I'm not sure what's more convenient than a powered speaker and the built-in processing that's perfectly tuned for them.

 

 

I'm pretty close to buying a powered monitor because of convenience, actually. Right now I'm using a Mackie rack mount amp and a PR 12 for monitoring. It would be soooo much simpler (and not kill my back) to have a nice little powered monitor.

[fingerpicker]

Regarding those Carvins:

I'm not saying they are a bad speaker.

But to say they blow away the competition tells me you have not compared them directly with the better powered speakers out there. I do REALLY like the mixer options on the Carvins, and for a mid-priced speaker they sound decent.

[Louis Schwartz]

 

(in response to fingerpicker) Musicans? Open minds? Bwa ha ha ha ha!!! I don't think anyone will change anyone else's mind on the powered vs. unpowered debate, so you're right. No open minds here. How different is that from Live Sound, where I've seen the exact same debate, though? People will debate in favor of what they already own, usually. But let's do an exercise. I really liked those speakers, so let's assume I'm starting out, price the whole thing out, then discuss convenience and versatility. I have lots of input requirements - I need a decent mixing board, too. What would I buy? UNPOWERED 1 pair of EV ELX112 speakers = $600 Yamaha EMX512SC 12 ch mixer, 500 wpc = $570 Total = $1,170 POWERED 1 pair of EV ELX112P active speakers (1,000 watts per speaker) = $1,200 Yamaha 12 ch mixer (MG124c) = $240 Total = $1,440 Trying to do an exact comparison is folly, though. I paired the passive speakers with the 512 because that's what I'd buy in real life. If you wanted to match the 2,000 watts of power you get from the powered EV's, you'd end up spending a lot more on the passive side. PLUS, the MG124c is a better mixing board than the board in the EMX unit. All I could do is spec out what I would actually buy in each case. The above scenario shows that if I were just starting out, I would save some money going unpowered. But the powered system would definitely sound better - there's no doubt in my mind. The EMX amps are not bad, but they're not great sounding. If I have to put a speaker in for repair - in the unpowered situation, I need a replacement speaker. In the powered situation, I need a POWERED replacement speaker. Of course, if my EMX amp croaks, I need an amp AND a mixer as replacement. So it probably evens out. In powered speakers, you don't have a choice as to the power. "You don't actually NEED 1,000 watts? Too bad! You're paying for it! Mwa ha ha! Left to your own devices, you'd probably power this speaker with some 80 watt Behringer piece of push. Now take the power and LIKE it!" There's pros and cons to both sides for sure. I just like that I'm not "all in" on one thing. I could buy a pair of these speakers for only $600 and start using them immediately. I could almost afford that. But I could not almost afford spending double that on the powered versions. I feel like I can be more flexible unpowered.

 

 

I'm no expert on these things, but from what I've been reading on other threads around here, one more evening-up thing you're leaving out here is the fact that those "1000 watt" powered speakers are not really more powerful than the passive version of the speakers with a well-matched power amp. There are two 500 watt amps in those speakers, but the speakers don't use most of those watts.

 

For more knowledgable comments and details on this matter see threads like this one:

 

http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2840440-Oh-dear...-Yorkville-now-publishing-peak-specs-on-powered-speakers-(

 

But I agree, otherwise, that the choice between the two kinds of system is more or less a wash. You have to choose based on a combination of your sense of what features and abilities you want, what you wnat to pay, what's available to you at the time, and what drawbacks you are prepared to live with. The bottom line is that both will do the job, assuming that the particulars are matched to a given context.

 

Louis

[richardmac]

 

I'm no expert on these things, but from what I've been reading on other threads around here, one more evening-up thing you're leaving out here is the fact that those "1000 watt" powered speakers are not really more powerful than the passive version of the speakers with a well-matched power amp. There are two 500 watt amps in those speakers, but the speakers don't use most of those watts. For more knowledgable comments and details on this matter see threads like this one: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/showthread.php?2840440-Oh-dear...-Yorkville-now-publishing-peak-specs-on-powered-speakers-( But I agree, otherwise, that the choice between the two kinds of system is more or less a wash. You have to choose based on a combination of your sense of what features and abilities you want, what you wnat to pay, what's available to you at the time, and what drawbacks you are prepared to live with. The bottom line is that both will do the job, assuming that the particulars are matched to a given context. Louis

 

 

That is a really good point. I just went to the EV website to get more info on the "1,000 watt amp" in the powered version, and I couldn't find a damn thing. Downloaded the PDF brochure, same deal. They don't tell you anything other than "it's 1,000 watts." You just have to trust that EV has matched the amp with the speaker, which I do.

[richardmac]

Regarding those Carvins: I'm not saying they are a bad speaker. But to say they blow away the competition tells me you have not compared them directly with the better powered speakers out there. I do REALLY like the mixer options on the Carvins, and for a mid-priced speaker they sound decent.

 

I haven't heard or seen any Carvins around here in years. I see a ton of JBL JRX, Peavey PR 12 and 15, and Yamaha BR crap speakers and the better ones (clubs I think they're called.) And JBL Eon's. The places around here are lousy with cheap speakers. The other thing I see a lot of are the cabinets with two 15's and a horn. Usually Peavey. And they almost always sound like mud.

 

We could start a separate thread on speaker brand preferences. If I walk into a venue and see a brand speaker, I usually form a quick opinion based on previous experience.

 

Peavey PR12's - I hope this won't be loud or I'm in trouble.

JBL JRX - This is gonna suck.

JBL PRX - This is gonna rock!

EV SX100 - This should sound good.

Bose L1 - This should sound OK.

Peavey PV215 - I'm not gonna hear the vocals. At all.

Mackie SRM 450 - This should sound pretty good.

 

A really good engineer can make a bad speaker sound pretty good. You can get a good sound out of the JRX speakers, for example - I've heard it done. But flat they sound like a bullhorn. IMHO, that is.

 

I think I'm a closet audio engineer at heart. I love audio recording, I love live sound, I love talking about this stuff, I love hearing speakers cranked up and sounding great.