Any tips for singing while you are playing?

[romvert]

I think there is more...things seem simple but I think that if you analyze it well you'll notice thew perfect "expressive" control and a certain independence of the voice accentation from the simple, but perfect sounding strumming. That playing and that singing sound like they are playing with each other with the freedom of two minds....not difficult things, but very high class in the way the two elements are tied, none of which is "following". That's just the first example that came in my mind, but there are many who can do a great job in that sense, for whom the playing doesn't steal anything from the vocal interpretation....Ray Charles? Obviously the role of the parts, even if two separate performers are playing, is that one thing leads and the other supports. But just stating that it can't be done seems a bit excessive to me.

 

 

If you go back and read my original post I did not say that it can't be done, it's just a difficult task to be expressive while rhythmically bound to another instrument. And yes people have done it, to an extent but even Stevie will quit playing whilst in the middle of one of his smooth as honey ascending or descending pentatonic runs. Do you think M. Jackson's delivery would have been the same with a guitar in his hand? Not likely.

Notice that I'm shooting just a bit higher on the soul and feel departament than Jethro with my examples.

[romvert]

I disagree with the poster who said you can't sing expressively while playing. It can be done. The aforementioned: Stevie Wonder Ray Charles Ian Anderson (I saw him in concert and he did much more than that utube video) And what about: Diana Krall Elaine Elias Doctor John (not a great singer, but expressive) Shirley Horn Buddy Greco (Check out "My Buddy" CD - recorded live - it's excellent) Jimmy Smith BB King (OK he plays fill-ins to his vocal lines) Little Richard Muddy Waters Johnny Winters etc. etc. etc. Sure, there is something special to singing without having to play, and it's easier for most of us to do it that way, but it CAN be done with an instrument in your hands. I still haven't figured out how to sing and play sax at the same time though Insights and incites by Notes

Go back and read it again; you're a bit short on comprehension...

[alfonso]

If you go back and read my original post I did not say that it can't be done, it's just a difficult task to be expressive while rhythmically bound to another instrument.

Ok then. That's fine for me.

[Iamtheblues]

Yes, Notes. My little sister's business partner named me that. He had a nickname for everybody and loved alteration. So since I'm a musician, he decided Notes Norton was right for me. He has since retired and nobody much calls me that anymore. When I got on-line and started talking to people on the Internet, forums like this weren't here yet, and we did all this on the newsgroups (Usenet). There were so many Bobs on the alt.saxophone and other newsgroups I visited, and there was a slew or Roberts as well, so another Bob or Robert just added to the confusion. So I decided to use the Notes nickname. Now everybody knows me as that, so although there is no longer a need for it, I keep it around for familiarity. I guess I could have picked a better or worse nickname, but Notes was already given to me (my sister's partner was still working back then, so I heard myself being called that often). I guess I could have called myself "IAmTheMusic" or something like that Notes

Whatever, it sounds kinda hokey to me in a Borcht Belt kinda way, but if it works for you.....

Mine is from a guy who actually said that at an open mic, who took himself waaay too seriously. I figure if you're a good musician you don't need a corny nickname to let people know what you do.......

[flemtone]

A few observations:

'Notes' Norton - I like it! It's very 'noir', kinda like a gangster in the '30s. Wasn't there a character in Cagney's 'Public Enemy' named 'Nails' Nathan? 'tis a coolness.

Regarding singing expressively while playing an instrument - it seems that opinions vary. I know I've heard it done (Levon Helm comes to mind, as do people like Richard Thompson, Richard Shindell, Patty Larkin). Isn't that the goal, after all? Nobody wants to sacrifice one type of proficiency for another but it seems that you have to choose a side in order to be 'right' or 'wrong' on this forum.

I'd like to propose a survey. Are you:

[ ] A singer who plays an instrument
[ ] A player who sings
[ ] A lead singer or backup singer or both
[ ] A 'multi-instrumentalist' who gives as much practice to playing a given instrument as you do in vocal excercise and practice.

Let's see where this takes us. No opinion is 'wrong' - that's the nature of an opinion - it's yours regardless of other peoples' feelings in the matter. Let's see how this shakes down and matches up with people's opinions about the difficulty of playing vs. singing.

I'll go first:

I've sung all my life, but took up piano as a child, then went to drums, then guitar, then bass. I became proficient on bass before singing publicly with my band, though I already knew how to sing. In this reference, I'd say I was:

option 4 - 'multi-instrumentalist', because I put approximately the same amount of time in to both instruments, my voice and bass. I'd also have to go with option 3, as I sing lead or backup harmony on pretty much every song we do in the bands in which I participate.

Of course, I don't want to think that it's nigh-on impossible to be an evocative singer while being a good player - that just rubs me the wrong way, probably because that's exactly what I try to do. Whether I succeed or not, I'm not to judge - that's the audience's job. No complaints so far...

How about the rest of you? Pony up, y'all - let's hear your opinions!

[Jersey Jack]

If you go back and read my original post I did not say that it can't be done, it's just a difficult task to be expressive while rhythmically bound to another instrument. And yes people have done it, to an extent but even Stevie will quit playing whilst in the middle of one of his smooth as honey ascending or descending pentatonic runs. Do you think M. Jackson's delivery would have been the same with a guitar in his hand? Not likely. Notice that I'm shooting just a bit higher on the soul and feel departament than Jethro with my examples.

Well, okay, but the original comment belongs methinks in the exaggeration hall of fame! In fact, one can always make the case in the abstract that doing one thing is more efficient than doing two things. Perhaps great lead singers shouldn't dance around and gyrate erotically, as that would detract from their vocal performance? Wouldn't Michael Jackson or Elvis sing better if they just stood still?

Anyway, what's wrong really with the "soul and feel" of Jethro Tull? You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I suspect that your views about singing/playing reflect your taste in music rather than some fact of life. Let me guess--metal. pop/metal, soul, jazz? All of these genres emphasize both vocal chops and the lead singer.

My tastes go the other way--country, folk, blues, which emphasize playing and singing simultaneously. (Note: I don't like new country, which celebrates the lead singer on vocal steroids.) Would I want Hank Williams or Woody Guthrie or Robert Johnson to put down the guitar and just sing? Not so much.

I personally wouldn't be comfortable singing without a guitar or piano in front of me. But that's me, and it's certainly a crutch, because, well, I'm not that good!

[romvert]

A 'multi-instrumentalist' who gives as much practice to playing a given instrument as you do in vocal excercise and practice. Let's see where this takes us. No opinion is 'wrong' - that's the nature of an opinion - it's yours regardless of other peoples' feelings in the matter. Let's see how this shakes down and matches up with people's opinions about the difficulty of playing vs. singing. I'll go first: I've sung all my life, but took up piano as a child, then went to drums, then guitar, then bass. I became proficient on bass before singing publicly with my band, though I already knew how to sing. In this reference, I'd say I was: option 4 - 'multi-instrumentalist', because I put approximately the same amount of time in to both instruments, my voice and bass. I'd also have to go with option 3, as I sing lead or backup harmony on pretty much every song we do in the bands in which I participate. Of course, I don't want to think that it's nigh-on impossible to be an evocative singer while being a good player - that just rubs me the wrong way, probably because that's exactly what I try to do. Whether I succeed or not, I'm not to judge - that's the audience's job. No complaints so far... How about the rest of you? Pony up, y'all - let's hear your opinions!

 

OK, I'll bite. I'm all of 1,2 and 3. I play 4 instruments - guitar, violin, piano and of course, the larynx - and there's no way in hell I can devote practice time to all of that. Violin I've played in a music school for 12 years, so that'll always be there for ressurection; piano is a kind of marginal accompaniament instrument for me, but if I practice I can do almost anything with it; it was my secondary inst. in school... Guitar I practice the most as I am the only gtr players and one of the singers in my band. Voice is a life long journey of learning and adjustment, and it interests me the most.

[romvert]

Well, okay, but the original comment belongs methinks in the exaggeration hall of fame! In fact, one can always make the case in the abstract that doing one thing is more efficient than doing two things. Perhaps great lead singers shouldn't dance around and gyrate erotically, as that would detract from their vocal performance? Wouldn't Michael Jackson or Elvis sing better if they just stood still? Anyway, what's wrong really with the "soul and feel" of Jethro Tull? You're entitled to your opinion, of course, but I suspect that your views about singing/playing reflect your taste in music rather than some fact of life. Let me guess--metal. pop/metal, soul, jazz? All of these genres emphasize both vocal chops and the lead singer. My tastes go the other way--country, folk, blues, which emphasize playing and singing simultaneously. (Note: I don't like new country, which celebrates the lead singer on vocal steroids.) Would I want Hank Williams or Woody Guthrie or Robert Johnson to put down the guitar and just sing? Not so much. I personally wouldn't be comfortable singing without a guitar or piano in front of me. But that's me, and it's certainly a crutch, because, well, I'm not that good!

Thanks for the "hall of fame attack" there, folk boy! Kidding, of course... Dancing around is not a valid point; one can move us much as they want as long as it doesn't affect their performance. There's the few that have done it impecably, and then some that should never ever try it (like some Broadway people for example).
There's nothing wrong with Jethro, I'm just stepping above and debating here, not trying to step on people's feelings. Nothing personal. You're attempt at pigeon-hole-ing me is valiant - you can read and remember, which is good for a start. Yes, I'm a child of the 80's, so I like metal, hard rock and all that, but I really went to school for classical music and grew up on the Beatles; I like and ocasionally love anything from ABBA to Brujeira (mexican death metal, ha!), and can throw a proverbial left hook from anywhere at anytime.
If I have a problem, it is with some folk singers that claim to be singers; the same with death metal barkers and rappers.
I'll get back to you, I have to attend business.

[romvert]

One other valid reason would be using the diaphragm, which is the instrument in itself, becomes cumbersome and somewhat distracting from the other instrument (especially guitar, which hangs right over the breath support apparatus). Especially certain techniques, like a reset or diaphram "shake" (tremollo) are difficult if not impossible to do.
Otherwise, one good simple example is playing guitar and singing ac/dc's You Shook me, which is all possible but since they were not meant that way, very difficult to match rhythm and delivery without changing anything.

[herbie d]

OK... I don't like to give out secrets, but... I'm a guitar player/singer in a Power Trio, and have had the same problem. When I sing, I have to detach my mind from the guitar. So I guess you would say, my guitar goes into automatic mode.
Rather than spending alot of time going over and over the song, singing and playing, and waiting for the day I got it right, I started doing this... I practice scales alot. Really boring. Over and over, and over. I started playing my scales, while trying to read a book, or a magazine artical out loud. It took me a while to be able to do this, but i got it down. Now, I do this as well as, practice different rythms doing the same thing. I just detach the guitar from my mind. Its sort of a thing you train your head to do.
For me, none of it works unless I tap my foot. If you want me to add a wah pedal in... its not going to happen, plus if anyone is around looking, I have to say it looks pretty stange. I guess no stranger than when I practice singing in my car, at the top of my lungs, while driving around. He,he.

[hassanzubair786]

HEllo Every one

[hassanzubair786]

anyone like me

[hassanzubair786]

hey

[hassanzubair786]

hey

[Phait]

I still dont' have a knack for performing a song, but I amazed myself by covering Tom Petty's "Learning To Fly" - the chords are a simple progression (although changing to 1 particular chord took some practice). The vocal melody is easy. I got it down within maybe 15, 20 minutes in time to record a video for a girl I loved

[Notes_Norton]

OK... <...snip...> So I guess you would say, my guitar goes into automatic mode. <...> I practice scales alot. Really boring. Over and over, and over. <..>

 

 

I can't agree more, and I can't emphasize the practice of fundamentals over and over again - you cannot overdo them.

 

Not only for singing, but on your "other" instrument for improvising either answer parts to your singing or your ad lib solo in the middle of the tune.

 

Your ear and fingers will eventually get synchronized so that what you hear in your head comes out of your fingers without even thinking about it. And while you are singing, you can play your instrument in the auto-play mode.

 

Even though I play/sing for a living and have been doing so for decades, I practice scales on my instrument every practice session. It is how I warm up my fingers.

 

Notes

[Lee Knight]

I played bass and sang for years. It was hard at first but a musician friend helped me solve the mystery. As everyone has point out, you must be proficient in both parts. You won't be able to pull both off if you can't pull one off. Obviously.

Now, play both very slow. Stop at your 1st train wreck and analyze what should happen. Is it a played rhythm then the vocal starts on the downbeat... whatever. Analyze that tough spot and work it. Just it. Take note of where the rhythm is the same. Even if it's just one note. Look for the spots where the rhythm lines up. Those are your guide posts. Then take note of where one plays a rhythm while the other is sustained.

By breaking it into little sections and just practicing those sections. Noting when you land together, when you don't, etc. You'll get it.

AND THE BEST PART...

Once you start doing this you find you get an ear for it and it requires less and less of this type of work. And it's a blast.

By the way, Sting is very, very good at this. He plays some of the most counterintuitive bass rhythms against tough vocal phrasing.