Using my own delay live-what does the soundman need from me?

[Mr.Skellington]

Hello Ever-so-helpful Harmony Folk,

 

I'm a singer and I like to use a specific delay on my voice. It's in my Midiverb II and I love it!

 

When I've tried taking it to gigs in the past, the soundmen have not really known how to or just not wanted to have been bothered to hook it into the system.

 

I want to put it in a rack and take it to the gig with everything I need so the sound person can just plug it in and go. But, I haven't figured out what kind of connector I need.

 

Everything I've found is going to leave me with 1/4" outs and I think that's the problem. The sound guy needs an XLR out.

 

Can anyone recommend an effective and hopefully affordable, rack-friendly solution?

 

Thanks in advance.

 

Mr.Skellington

[dboomer]

Bringing in outside gear can pose all kinds of problems when trying to intregrate it to existing systems. When you become a big star they'll do it for you but until then maybe learning how to get by might be a better solution . Learn what's happening within your favorite preset so the house's system can be set to your preference. Duplicating delay is not very difficult.

[Mr.Skellington]

I appreciate that advice, but I am determined to use this delay live. I've had one soundman accomodate me and it worked wonderfully. It sounded great. It's a very specific delay. Sound men always say, "Oh, I've got delays, what kind do you need...?" But, that just doesn't cut it.

 

So, I'm trying to show up and make it VERY EASY on them. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. But, I want my effects just like any guitar player would want to use his.

 

So, if anyone can tell me a way to:

 

1. Put the stage mic into the Midiverb II

2. Go out of the Midiverb II to the mixer

 

That would be awesome.

 

Thanks again.

 

Mr. Skellington

[Scodiddly]

You need a mic preamp to feed the delay. These are incredibly common right now in the recording side, so you'll be able to find something. At the cheapest is probably one of those little Behringer mixers with the one mic input.

 

For the output you need a DI box. These are quite common, and probably the sound tech will have a few for plugging in keyboards and basses and such. The DI will take the 1/4" down to a mic-level XLR.

[dboomer]

It's kinda like taking your kid to work!

 

OK ...

 

Buy a mic preamp. Plug your mic into the preamp and the preamp into the line in of the delay.

 

Run the output of the delay into a DI. Run the DI into the snake. Use the pad to drop the level to mic level cuz that's what the soundman will expect.

 

Sometimes it will go smooth, sometimes not. Mixer's hate to give up control because they are responsible for it, not the performer. Be prepared with plan B!

[soul-x]

 

Originally posted by Scodiddly You need a mic preamp to feed the delay. These are incredibly common right now in the recording side, so you'll be able to find something. At the cheapest is probably one of those little Behringer mixers with the one mic input. For the output you need a DI box. These are quite common, and probably the sound tech will have a few for plugging in keyboards and basses and such. The DI will take the 1/4" down to a mic-level XLR.

 

 

He'll still need to split the signal somewhere upstream of the midiverb, otherwise there'll be effects in the monitors.

 

The midiverb is a pretty run-o-the-mill echobox. I think if he writes down the parameters of the delay that he is fond of (they're probably in the manual), a soundman would be more than willing to accomodate him. Adding it to the mic signal chain sounds like a pain in the ass.

[dboomer]

my point exactly!

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by Mr.Skellington I appreciate that advice, but I am determined to use this delay live. I've had one soundman accomodate me and it worked wonderfully. It sounded great. It's a very specific delay. Sound men always say, "Oh, I've got delays, what kind do you need...?" But, that just doesn't cut it. So, I'm trying to show up and make it VERY EASY on them. I'm not trying to be a pain in the ass. But, I want my effects just like any guitar player would want to use his. So, if anyone can tell me a way to: 1. Put the stage mic into the Midiverb II 2. Go out of the Midiverb II to the mixer That would be awesome. Thanks again. Mr. Skellington

It sounds like a total PITA for a soundperson,but if you really need it,do you need it on stage or can it be out at the desk? If it can be out at the desk,make sure you bring an insert cable and just put it in your channel. What makes it so special,though?

[Dark Ice]

I once saw a death metal band in a local bar try to convince the sound guy to put a distortion pedal in the microphone channel...

 

...its not relevent I know but I thought it was funny

 

Steve.

[soul-x]

 

Originally posted by tlbonehead It sounds like a total PITA for a soundperson,but if you really need it,do you need it on stage or can it be out at the desk? If it can be out at the desk,make sure you bring an insert cable and just put it in your channel. What makes it so special,though?

 

 

He'd still likely have the less-than-ideal situation of effects in the monitors.

[ATOMICDOG1]

Besides that, most of the time from stage he would have no idea how that delay was interacting with the room, it could really screw up the FOH mix. And the wierd interaction from delay on the monitor would really suck for the overall mix. bottom line: bad idea. Just get the parameters and tell the soundman thats what you want on vocals. Its easier and much cleaner that way.

[ATOMICDOG1]

if you insist on doing it from stage, then I'd do this:

 

1) get a mic splitter (whirlwind makes a good one)

2) get a mic preamp

3) get a direct box

 

What you do is split the mic before it goes to the snake, the first leg goes to the snake direct for monitor and dry FOH, the other leg goes to the mic pre, with output going to the Midiverb () and then from the midiverb out to the DI and into the snake for the wet vocal channel (make sure that the mix is 100% wet) the balance between the delay and the dry can then be adjusted by the mixer, and he can mute the delay when you talk so that you don't sound silly.

[Mr.Skellington]

"It sounds like a total PITA for a soundperson,but if you really need it,do you need it on stage or can it be out at the desk? If it can be out at the desk,make sure you bring an insert cable and just put it in your channel. What makes it so special,though?"

 

If it's easier for the sound person I'd be happy to leave it up at the desk. Would I just need a couple of extra cables at that point?

 

As far as what's so special about it? It's the EXACT sound that I want. It's a very integral part of my vocal sound and I want to reproduce it live. It's sort of a reverse delay. I've tried to just take whatever the soundguy can conjure up, but it's always a real generic, simple, repeating delay and it's just not what I want.

 

I'm willing to build a little rack case with a small mixer like the Behringer and a preamp if that'll work. If leaving it at the desk with a couple of cables works that sounds even better/easier and sounds like it would give the sound guy even more control.

[ATOMICDOG1]

With my suggestion you could leave it wired in a rack with one cable in and two out... and leave it on the stage.

[Mr.Skellington]

"He'd still likely have the less-than-ideal situation of effects in the monitors."

 

Why would this be "less than ideal"?

 

"With my suggestion you could leave it wired in a rack with one cable in and two out... and leave it on the stage."

 

I like this suggestion, but the point about not knowing how it's working FOH makes sense. Ultimately, though, your suggestion is probably what will work best more often than not.

 

 

[The_Idiom]

well your going to get some soundguys who will have no problem adding the extra effect unit...

 

if they have an open aux send and an open channel it reallly should be no problem... as long as you supply them with the extra patch cables

 

but thats a big if

 

 

Brandon

[soul-x]

Originally posted by Mr.Skellington "He'd still likely have the less-than-ideal situation of effects in the monitors." Why would this be "less than ideal"? "With my suggestion you could leave it wired in a rack with one cable in and two out... and leave it on the stage." I like this suggestion, but the point about not knowing how it's working FOH makes sense. Ultimately, though, your suggestion is probably what will work best more often than not.

 

Effects in the monitors will prevent you from hearing your performance, increase feedback, muddy the overall sound on stage, and spill into the house, causing problems with the sound there. I think AtomicDog did a pretty good job explaining some of the reasons that its "less than ideal".

 

If you must have your own effects processor, AtomicDog's solution probably works the best, giving the soundman control over the routing of the effects. Make sure to communicate with the soundman your intent, and don't be too suprised if some of the more rigid guys will not accomodate you.

 

[ATOMICDOG1]

BTW, that is also the way we used to do a vocal distortion for a techno band I was on tour with (though it was easier since the vocalist used in ears), we just had a mic pre on one leg that was peged to distort, it worked very well for that, and we could mute it when he wasn't using it. ANd it beat the hell out of the CB mic he was using before that for distortion.

[tlbonehead]

Originally posted by Mr.Skellington "He'd still likely have the less-than-ideal situation of effects in the monitors." Why would this be "less than ideal"? "With my suggestion you could leave it wired in a rack with one cable in and two out... and leave it on the stage." I like this suggestion, but the point about not knowing how it's working FOH makes sense. Ultimately, though, your suggestion is probably what will work best more often than not.

You'd need an insert cable,not a couple of cables for the soundperson to just insert it in your channel. As for effects in the monitors,of course that is far less than ideal. You don't want vocal effects going through the monitors. Its a mess.

[Dookietwo]

Hello

 

You want to have a delay with you because the soundman doesn't use the correct delay time for tempo so you want to change it yourself?

 

If not , I am sure you realize that every song has a different tempo or "speed" If you use just one delay all night it might match tempo on a few songs and make you sound like donald duck on others. Its very important to match delay time to song tempo. The wrong delay time will "Slow" the band down or speed it up in relation to the correct tempo.

 

Try singing a fast song with a 350 ms delay and you will find yourself slowing down. Or a slow song with a short delay.

Also if its in the monitors for the whole band to hear most bands will become what I call effect Locked. Every song is -played-at-the-same-speed...........Yuck.

If the delay is to loud in relation to dry you may lack clarity as others have mentioned.

 

Find a good sound person or get good at showing them what you want. You might end up making things worse than you think

Dookietwo

[IsildursBane]

If all the aux sends are occupied, you could use the vocal channel's direct out (or 1/2-way plugged in insert) to feed the midiverb, and run the output of the midiverb into the line input of another channel. That would eliminate the need for any DI boxes and available auxes.

 

-Dan.

[ATOMICDOG1]

 

Originally posted by tlbonehead You'd need an insert cable,not a couple of cables for the soundperson to just insert it in your channel. As for effects in the monitors,of course that is far less than ideal. You don't want vocal effects going through the monitors. Its a mess.

 

 

I suggested the set up the way that I did to save trouble for the soundman. With the midiverb on a insert, the whole vocal is fed through it, not a good situation at all. The easiest way and the best way in my opinion is to send the soundman both a wet and a dry signal so he can mix it and kill the delay inbetween songs. The best way to do that is to split the mic signal before it goes to the snake. That way Mr.S still has control over the delay he wants and sound man can still send just the dry to monitors and adjust the level of delay to the mix.

 

By the way, I agree that he'd be better off writing down the parameters of the delay he likes and letting the soundman do it, but if he insists on doing it himself, the idea of having the splitter, mic pre, the midiverb, and the DI all racked up together is the easiest way to do it. You would have everything in the rack already wired up, so you just need one cable from the mic to the splitter and two cables out, one from the splitter for dry mic signal and one from the DI for the 100% wet signal from the midiverb.

Easy as pie. Even easier if you have your own wireless racked up too!

[ATOMICDOG1]

Originally posted by IsildursBane If all the aux sends are occupied, you could use the vocal channel's direct out (or 1/2-way plugged in insert) to feed the midiverb, and run the output of the midiverb into the line input of another channel. That would eliminate the need for any DI boxes and available auxes. -Dan.

 

Dan thats true, but it's still more of a hassle for the soundguy. I'm all about less hassle for the soundguy, lol

[IsildursBane]

Originally posted by ATOMICDOG1 Dan thats true, but it's still more of a hassle for the soundguy. I'm all about less hassle for the soundguy, lol

 

As a fellow soundguy, I'm all about reducing my hassle, too.

 

But....

 

When it comes time to figure out why something isn't working, especially if it stops working in the middle of a show, my way makes it much easier to debug problems. Everything is the same as it always is, except you've got one new piece of gear sitting on top of the board w/ a couple cables dangling from it.

 

The less on-stage gear to potentially fail, the better.

 

-Dan.