Members RoboPimp Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 ok ok ok.. wot's the deal here? Is MDF (medium density fiberboard) total crap?Is it going to fall apart into sawdust in 5.239 years?Is it going to make me sad? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 A little bit of all 3. There are different grades of the stuff. Some MDF survives when rained on. Some will crumble if merely dampened. Overall MDF: - Is heavier than wood- Brittle and prone to breaking if dropped- Doesn't take kindly to reinserting screws (for instance changing a driver or lense)- Does not like water If you subscribe to "buy once cry once",wood or injection molded cabs are better as far as longevity. Not a big deal if it's just going to sit in a basement (unless yours floods), but if you're a giggin' band or want something for the long haul it's a fairly important consideration. MDF has decent acoustic properties, but that's not why it's used. It's used in lower grade cabinets because it's cheap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by RoboPimp ok ok ok.. wot's the deal here? Is MDF (medium density fiberboard) total crap? Is it going to fall apart into sawdust in 5.239 years? Is it going to make me sad? #2 YOU MIGHT BE A LITTLE HIGH ON! Did you not do your research until after the purchase? Don't get it wet or allow it to spend a lot of time in high humidity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoboPimp Posted July 9, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by tlbonehead #2 YOU MIGHT BE A LITTLE HIGH ON! Did you not do your research until after the purchase? Don't get it wet or allow it to spend a lot of time in high humidity. hey now... I am STILL doing research. Haven't bought anything yet. thanks for your input though, it's really helpful to be able to talk to people who've been though all the stuff I'm getting into!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 You have probably already had some experience with MDF. Ever buy cheap ready-to-assemble furniture? Sauder is one of the biggest manufacturers of the stuff. TV stands, little cabinets, computer desks, etc. Notice how an MDF TV stand will get rickety after being moved around? The wood gets really weak around the screws and after awhile they'll just pull out. You can't really redrill the things because they'll break and crumble. That is the world of cheap MDF. I'm an apartment caretaker and the dumpster out back always has the remnants of some old crap furniture that a previous tenant left behind because it fell apart (although I shouldn't talk, because I'm pretty sure the computer desk I'm sitting in front of is a cheapie Sauder unit!). Audiophiles use MDF in speaker construction because of its acoustic properties, but then again audiophile bookshelf speakers aren't meant to be lugged around like pro audio gear is. Most MI and pro gear is made of plywood, which is a very nice compromise. It's very durable yet has pretty good acoustic properties at the same time. Keep in mind there are many, many grades of plywood out there as well, from cheap to pricey. Some manufacturers will couple an MDF baffle with plywood back and sides. Then there's OSB, which stands for oriented strand board. I haven't seen this used much in speaker construction although I'm sure it's out there. It's generally better than MDF but not quite as good as plywood (again, generally speaking). The price of OSB has skyrocketed since the whole Iraq thing though - at least that's what the guys at the lumberyard give as the reason. My dad's an experienced carpenter and he says it's really changed the overall bill for getting certain home improvement work done. Of course the price of plywood has jumped correspondingly, since they know people will opt for plywood certainly if it's less than OSB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 What'cha looking for and what kind of budget? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoboPimp Posted July 9, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by tlbonehead What'cha looking for and what kind of budget? well, I'm lookin' for mains, monitors... what about the polypropelene (sp) molded cabinets. how does that compare to plywood? I am looking to spend $3-400 a piece on them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by RoboPimp well, I'm lookin' for mains, monitors... what about the polypropelene (sp) molded cabinets.how does that compare to plywood? I am looking to spend $3-400 a piece on them. $3 seems kind of cheap,but $400 is pretty good. Do you want subs,or aren't you playing rock/popular music? You might want to look at those Cerwin Vega 3-way speakers with the small horn-loaded cone mid. Can't recall the exact model name. They also have a 12" co-ax monitor. They are birch ply. Oh ya,I think they are called Pro Stax. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 9, 2004 CMS Author Share Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by J. Then there's OSB, which stands for oriented strand board. I haven't seen this used much in speaker construction although I'm sure it's out there. It's generally better than MDF but not quite as good as plywood (again, generally speaking). The price of OSB has skyrocketed since the whole Iraq thing though - at least that's what the guys at the lumberyard give as the reason. My dad's an experienced carpenter and he says it's really changed the overall bill for getting certain home improvement work done. Of course the price of plywood has jumped correspondingly, since they know people will opt for plywood certainly if it's less than OSB. When compared with plywood, OSB is actually a very good product for it's typical use....building construction. For speaker cabinets it doesn't fair quite so well, as it is generally heavier and it's ability to hold screws driven into the edge is not a good....but that's a poor construction practice to begin with. ALL wood-product sheet good prices have skyrocketed the past 6-8 months, but this is not something to blame on the Iraq conflict (what the hell would that have to do with it anyway???) The reason is worse, actually.....the major wood products companies have essentially cut their production because they all decided to rebuild their plants at the same time, and there are only a handful operating until this work is done. How convenient for them. A sheet of 3/8" OSB was $4.38 at HD last year....today it's about $18.00. 3/4" Sturdi-floor OSB is now $34.00. Proof of how bull{censored} this is....3/4" oak veneer plywood hasn't changed....it's still about $40/sheet, but 3/4" AC fir plywood has gone from $28 to over $36. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by J. You have probably already had some experience with MDF. Ever buy cheap ready-to-assemble furniture? Pricing for wood has jumped because the war has really dug into Iraq's ability to export huge quantities of lumber products. The whole Iraqi forestry industry is in the {censored}ter...if we don't end our dependence on middle eastern wood pretty soon, we're screwed. That's why I'm voting for Ronald McDonald. OSB has steadily improved over the years. In the construction industry, it's gone from being seen only as 'cheap but not so good' to 'about the same price but better quality' for some products. In particular, if you look at the joists in most new homes, they're bascially wooden "I-beams" made out of OSB with a solid wood plate on the top and the bottom. This stuff is supposedly preferable to using good ol' 2x lumber because it's usually dead straight (no warping), and the I-beam design makes it much easier to nail into. From what I've been told, the big jump in quality is due to improvements in both the manufacturing process and the chemicals that are used to bond the strands together. As for MDF, or as I like to call it "future wet sawdust", I've had more than enough experience with it. An old roommate left me a free standing closet thing that I used for storage for a few years. It's last days were spent in the garage and I used it as my "golf locker"...kept a couple sets of clubs, some shoes, and some other paraphenalia in it. Eventually after a couple of winters, when every day a couple of big slush chunks fall off the car and keep the garage floor nice and damp, the thing started to get really moldy and generally funky. Then one day I noticed it leaning forward like the tower of Pisa. When I pushed on it, I noticed that the bottom 14" or so...all the way around...was only being supported by the cheesy wood veneer that was applied to the outside of the MDF. Not exactly structurally sound. The biggest pain in the butt was all of the sweeping I had to do after I dragged it to the curb. It started the journey about 78" tall, and after dragging it about 50 feet across a blacktop driveway, it was at least a foot shorter. The best part was that later that night, I saw a couple of guys in a pickup truck come by and 'steal' this 'treasure' off the garbage pile. Who knows, maybe they were in the sawdust business. I can't imagine that MDF would be my first choice for PA gear. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members B. Adams Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 With the war, we are unable to export Iraq's many lush forests, the lumber industry in the US was bound to suffer. The fact is, we live in a country with very few natural resources. It's unfortunate that we don't have billions of acres of forests, billions of acres of fertile farmland, billions of gallons in oil reservoirs that we never use, large deposits of iron and other metals, and the labor force to turn these raw materials into usable products. Instead, we are forced to import everything we use. We rely on countries like Iraq for everything from raw cotton to uncut granite. Actually, I believe the rebuiding the plant thing a lot more than the war in Iraq excuse. Since when does anybody need that much wood in a desert? Don't those guys all live in tents anyway? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 Originally posted by B. Adams Don't those guys all live in tents anyway? Except for the ones who have underground spider hole hideouts. But those are lined with stolen cash. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members TexasJim Posted July 9, 2004 Members Share Posted July 9, 2004 I like Old Steve's term: "future wet sawdust". My partner has always called particle board "GLIT"; Glue & {censored}! Texas Jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Preacher Will Posted July 10, 2004 Members Share Posted July 10, 2004 Originally posted by B. Adams Actually, I believe the rebuiding the plant thing a lot more than the war in Iraq excuse. Since when does anybody need that much wood in a desert? Don't those guys all live in tents anyway? There's also a third reason (I personally think it's number one--I haven't heard the rebuilding plants thing). Interest rates for the last couple of years have been at their lowest point in decades. This has led to a nationwide boom in the housing industry. Increased demand for construction materials has led to increased costs. Simple law of supply and demand. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted July 10, 2004 Members Share Posted July 10, 2004 Originally posted by Craigv When compared with plywood, OSB is actually a very good product for it's typical use....building construction. For speaker cabinets it doesn't fair quite so well, as it is generally heavier and it's ability to hold screws driven into the edge is not a good....but that's a poor construction practice to begin with.ALL wood-product sheet good prices have skyrocketed the past 6-8 months, but this is not something to blame on the Iraq conflict (what the hell would that have to do with it anyway???) The reason is worse, actually.....the major wood products companies have essentially cut their production because they all decided to rebuild their plants at the same time, and there are only a handful operating until this work is done. How convenient for them.A sheet of 3/8" OSB was $4.38 at HD last year....today it's about $18.00. 3/4" Sturdi-floor OSB is now $34.00. Proof of how bull{censored} this is....3/4" oak veneer plywood hasn't changed....it's still about $40/sheet, but 3/4" AC fir plywood has gone from $28 to over $36. Well, I don't have any idea what Iraq would have to do with the prices of OSB, but kid you not that's what the dudes at the lumber yard said. Maybe they were smoking crack behind the sheds or something. I wonder how the escalating wood prices have affected speaker cab manufacturers. I haven't seen a big jump in prices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members B. Adams Posted July 10, 2004 Members Share Posted July 10, 2004 Well, the difference in price for a full sheet of plywood is somewhere around $20, and most speakers probably use around 3/4 of a sheet, so even if they raise the cost of the cab by $15 for the more expensive materials, you'll probably just blame it on inflation anyway. But it probably costs them less than it costs me, so it's even less than $15. And the cheapo's don't use real wood anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted July 10, 2004 Members Share Posted July 10, 2004 Originally posted by Preacher Will There's also a third reason (I personally think it's number one--I haven't heard the rebuilding plants thing). Interest rates for the last couple of years have been at their lowest point in decades. This has led to a nationwide boom in the housing industry. Increased demand for construction materials has led to increased costs. Simple law of supply and demand. Great, just what we needed...a serious response based in reality! I'm sticking with my Iraqi forestry industry exports concept. As for price increases impacting the speaker industry, I'm sure it'll have some effect, but remember that these guys are buying on a lot more volume than the typical home depot customer. If you amortize the price differences over an extended amount of time (which is what they probably do) the differences aren't as dramatic. Also, the lumber suppliers probably have contracts with the big users that lock them into pricing for a certain time period, whereas Home Depot can be more reactionary with their pricing. As for the comment about the kids smoking something at the lumber yard, my guess is that you could catch a pretty wicked buzz if you rolled a joint out of some damp MFD dust....not that I've had any personal experience in the matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members B. Adams Posted July 10, 2004 Members Share Posted July 10, 2004 Actually, wood dust is one of the worst carcinogens known to man. Sawdust causes cancer, and it's pretty bad at that. Anybody that works around sawdust constantly has a huge chance of getting cancer at some point. Sounds weird, but it's true, and not many people realize it. People think that because it's natural, it's not bad for you, but mother nature is a bitch sometimes. Just thought I'd share that little bit of trivia with you. It's crazy what you can learn at OSHA safety meetings... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members J. Posted July 10, 2004 Members Share Posted July 10, 2004 Originally posted by Old Steve As for the comment about the kids smoking something at the lumber yard, my guess is that you could catch a pretty wicked buzz if you rolled a joint out of some damp MFD dust....not that I've had any personal experience in the matter. Maybe that's why all these kids are buying those cheap Nadys... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members IsildursBane Posted July 11, 2004 Members Share Posted July 11, 2004 As for the comment about the kids smoking something at the lumber yard, my guess is that you could catch a pretty wicked buzz if you rolled a joint out of some damp MFD dust.... Let's not forget all the cyanide in the pressure treated wood. I'm sure that would make for some good times. -Dan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoboPimp Posted July 11, 2004 Author Members Share Posted July 11, 2004 Originally posted by B. Adams Actually, wood dust is one of the worst carcinogens known to man. Sawdust causes cancer, and it's pretty bad at that. Anybody that works around sawdust constantly has a huge chance of getting cancer at some point. Sounds weird, but it's true, and not many people realize it. People think that because it's natural, it's not bad for you, but mother nature is a bitch sometimes. Just thought I'd share that little bit of trivia with you. It's crazy what you can learn at OSHA safety meetings... ... puts still smoking bowl of MDF down quickly... {censored}... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Old Steve Posted July 12, 2004 Members Share Posted July 12, 2004 Yeah, smoking MDF would be pretty unhealthy...that's why I just shoot it up now. Nothing better for the old ticker than some sawdust and glue...makes cholesterol look like WD-40! My bass player should be dead. He's got his life very together nowadays, but he was telling us about his younger days when they smoked, snorted, and otherwise ingested any and everything they could get their hands on. They were even dipping joints in fermaldahyde (sp??) back then....that's gotta be against the manufacturer's recommendations, eh? The best part was that he was telling us his old drug war stories with an antesthesiologist (my god, what is it, spelling torture day?) sitting at the table. The doc (nice young lady at the show) just sat there bug-eyed in disbelief that this fine upstanding guy survived his formative years to become a 'normal' adult. Just like the OSHA meeting, her actual knowledge of the facts gave her an even better understanding of the medical marvel that is our bassist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted July 12, 2004 CMS Author Share Posted July 12, 2004 Originally posted by J. Well, I don't have any idea what Iraq would have to do with the prices of OSB, but kid you not that's what the dudes at the lumber yard said. Maybe they were smoking crack behind the sheds or something. I wonder how the escalating wood prices have affected speaker cab manufacturers. I haven't seen a big jump in prices. The fact that we haven't seen cabinet prices rise might be because most manufacturers don't pay retail and have supply contracts that could span this short-term price bump. Edit: And now I see Old Steve said the exact same thing many posts previous to mine..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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