Members u6crash Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 I haven't quite figured out how stage montiors work and what an appropriate setup is for live shows and practice. What would make the most sense to me is to have the signal from the mixer go to an amp, and then to individual monitors for each band member. However, I get the impression that it isn't quite as simple as that. Why might one want a powered monitor instead? I've seen things labeled "vocal monitors". Why would you only want to hear vocals through one, and not the rest of the band? If there were a guide I could read or some diagrams to look at, that would be great. Any other help is appreciated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ctardi Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Need details about the band so we can help you find a setup right for you. Budget idea would be good also. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kevin Mc Carthy Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Here's a couple great resources to give you the basics. No offense intended if your more advanced than the info these get into. http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/other/pabasics.pdf http://www.yorkville.com/downloads/other/paguide.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted March 23, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Originally posted by ctardi Need details about the band so we can help you find a setup right for you. Budget idea would be good also. Well, this is theoretical at the moment. I'm just curious. I've been wondering about it for a while. However, after reading the PA basics and guide, I think I have a general idea. For example, my mixer is a Yamaha MG12/4. It has Aux1 and Aux2 send and returns. If I had a four person setup and wanted everyone to have a monitor with the same mix, the signal could be sent to another stage monitor amp with four monitors connected. Probably two montiors per channel. If you wanted each member to be able to control their individual montior volume, you might want to go with powered monitors, correct? However, in that situation you'd have to split the signal at some point. What is the best way to do that? Another option would be to use the Insert I/O jacks to send individual channels to a monitor, right? What I can't figure out is why you'd only want one instrument coming out of a single monitor. Don't you need to be able to hear everyone? Like I said, this is all out of curiosity and will be a while before I need to know this stuff for a purchase. I play guitar and sing with a drummer friend of mine. Since it's just the two of us, we have a pretty simple set up. I have a speaker cab in front of me, he's got one next to him. I send vocals to both channels and mic the guitar and send it to his as well. The amp facing me is plenty for me and I don't need it in my "monitor" as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Originally posted by u6crash I haven't quite figured out how stage montiors work and what an appropriate setup is for live shows and practice.What would make the most sense to me is to have the signal from the mixer go to an amp, and then to individual monitors for each band member.However, I get the impression that it isn't quite as simple as that. Why might one want a powered monitor instead? I've seen things labeled "vocal monitors". Why would you only want to hear vocals through one, and not the rest of the band?If there were a guide I could read or some diagrams to look at, that would be great. Any other help is appreciated. Powered monitors just put the amp in the speaker cab instead of having it upstream somewhere. As for what you put in the monitors,that's up to you. In smaller settings I try and have the stage setup so that you can get by with vocals only in them(and the acoustic guitar) Set your amps up so that everyone one stage can hear everyone else. That way,it is easier to hear your singing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Originally posted by u6crash Well, this is theoretical at the moment. I'm just curious. I've been wondering about it for a while.However, after reading the PA basics and guide, I think I have a general idea.For example, my mixer is a Yamaha MG12/4. It has Aux1 and Aux2 send and returns. If I had a four person setup and wanted everyone to have a monitor with the same mix, the signal could be sent to another stage monitor amp with four monitors connected. Probably two montiors per channel.If you wanted each member to be able to control their individual montior volume, you might want to go with powered monitors, correct? However, in that situation you'd have to split the signal at some point. What is the best way to do that?Another option would be to use the Insert I/O jacks to send individual channels to a monitor, right? What I can't figure out is why you'd only want one instrument coming out of a single monitor. Don't you need to be able to hear everyone?Like I said, this is all out of curiosity and will be a while before I need to know this stuff for a purchase. I play guitar and sing with a drummer friend of mine. Since it's just the two of us, we have a pretty simple set up. I have a speaker cab in front of me, he's got one next to him. I send vocals to both channels and mic the guitar and send it to his as well. The amp facing me is plenty for me and I don't need it in my "monitor" as well. You don't need powered monitors for each bane member to control their own volume. Most amps have volume controls on them. Powered monitors usually have pass through jacks so you can take the signal in and pass it to another amp or monitor down the line. If you have the bucks, a mixer that gives you more than one mix is preferable so that each member can get as much or as little of what they need in their own monitor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Never_Grew_Up Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Why different mixes? The guitar player on stage left may have a ton of his own guitar hitting him in the butt (hopefully he's tipped it up so it's hitting his ears) right from his amp, so having his guitar in HIS monitor mix isn't necessary, but putting some vocals and some of the OTHER guitar player in the mix gives him something to play along with. Same rules apply for guitar #2. Maybe you'll get lucky & have guitar players that use a POD or something elsae that goes direct into the board. Then each guitar player needs more of their own guitar in their mix because it's the only way they'll hear it. The lead vocalist might only want his own voice & something to sing along with (rhythm guitar &/or keyboards). Backup singers need the same thing as the lead singer, but they also need some of their own voice (and maybe each other's voicees as well) so they hear the harmonies & blend. This is why looking at boards with multiple pre-fade auxes is desirable so you can mix each monitor send individually and separately from the main (FOH) mix. Whether you do that with amps in a rack connected to passive speakers or with line signals from the board to powered speakers is just semantics. Powered speakers are more flexible in that they can all be daisychained to the same signal source & all play the same mix, OR they could each be connected to a separate send (subject to the # of sends your board has) and have individual mixes. To do that with rackmount amps & passive speakers you need a separate amp channel for each mix. OTOH, powered speakers require more cabling because they need AC power as well as signal cabling so you could have more cables on stage to risk tripping on or stepping on. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 First, aux sends are from the aux mix bus, the aux returns, even though they are labeled in a similar way (1&2) have nothing to do with monitors or the aux bus. They could be labeled aux input a & b... they are just another line level input with very limited features. Second, the insert point is not an appropriate place to get a monitor mix from. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members u6crash Posted March 23, 2006 Author Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Originally posted by GCDEF You don't need powered monitors for each bane member to control their own volume. Most amps have volume controls on them. Powered monitors usually have pass through jacks so you can take the signal in and pass it to another amp or monitor down the line. I guess in the scenario I was thinking, a two channel amp was being used with passive monitors. In that instance you could only change the volume of the individual channels, correct? It's starting to make a little more sense. It would help a lot if I had more hands on experience with this stuff. Reading manuals only takes you so far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted March 23, 2006 Members Share Posted March 23, 2006 Originally posted by u6crash I guess in the scenario I was thinking, a two channel amp was being used with passive monitors. In that instance you could only change the volume of the individual channels, correct? Correct. You'll probably want to step up to a mixer with individual control over each monitor though. Sharing a monitor mix sucks. I played a gig this weekend with a crappy PA with a single mix. It wasn't much fun. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted March 24, 2006 Members Share Posted March 24, 2006 A single mix is fine with me. I always like to have eveyone singer in the monitor mix at about the same volume anyway so that you can feel for the correct volume when singing lead or backup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted March 24, 2006 Members Share Posted March 24, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead A single mix is fine with me. I always like to have eveyone singer in the monitor mix at about the same volume anyway so that you can feel for the correct volume when singing lead or backup. The main problem I have with a single mix is that I'm usually on stage right, the singer is kind of in the middle but slightly left and the bass player is far left. On a bigger stage you can't hear my guitar at all over by the bass player, and bigger stages, particularly with drum risers, the drummer can't hear me either. I can either turn up to ear-splitting levels so they can hear me, or run a bit of guitar in their monitors but leave it off in mine and the singer's. When I'm singing, I like my voice a little louder in the mix so I can pick myself out of the harmonies. Others are the same way. You can't do that with a single mix either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted March 24, 2006 Members Share Posted March 24, 2006 Usesally Aux. 1 and 2 is for your rack effects such as reverb and delays but you can use them as a monitor send but most boards do dedicate at least 1 or 2 monitor sends. I use PV RQ2318 that has 2 Aux. sends and 2 Monitors sends. I use the Mon. 1 for lead and backup vocals and Mon.2 for guitars, I mix my lead vocals as loud as possible with out feedback issues and that varies from place to place then mix evrything underneath the lead vocals. I,m using 4 -12" w/horn wedges 3 up front 1 for the drummer.So far everything sounds great I do have to remind the guitar players you can't turn your half stacks louder then the monitors because I want to be able to hear the vocals. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rxnet Posted March 24, 2006 Members Share Posted March 24, 2006 twostone..just to clarify....you run 2 monitor mixes through 4 monitors..one vocals and one guitars....how do you divide this up on stage...drummer gets? guitar player gets?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted March 24, 2006 Members Share Posted March 24, 2006 Originally posted by GCDEF The main problem I have with a single mix is that I'm usually on stage right, the singer is kind of in the middle but slightly left and the bass player is far left. On a bigger stage you can't hear my guitar at all over by the bass player, and bigger stages, particularly with drum risers, the drummer can't hear me either. I can either turn up to ear-splitting levels so they can hear me, or run a bit of guitar in their monitors but leave it off in mine and the singer's. When I'm singing, I like my voice a little louder in the mix so I can pick myself out of the harmonies. Others are the same way. You can't do that with a single mix either. Do you sidefill your amps? I can easily get my sound to the drummer and bass player w/o being obnoxiously loud by doing so. The closed back cab helps a lot because I can aim my sound pretty tightly. If we play a large stage where we are spread out we just use sidefills for instruments on their own aux. As for the part about lead vocals being louder,etc,that's a good reason for me to want all vocals to be similar volume in the monitors. With decent mic technique and understanding of vocal balance you can feel where you should be volumewise when singing lead or harmonies. I find it easier that way when knowing that the vocal balance in the monitors is a good indication of vocal balance through the mains. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tietjen Posted March 24, 2006 Members Share Posted March 24, 2006 Here's the answer to all of your problems. Inears...they are HIGHLY portable, can be individually mixed for a taylor fit, and you'll save your ears from all of the stage volume. I love my in ears!!! I will never go back now. I can turn my 100 watt amp to 11 and it will sound great and the only person that hates it is the house engineer. On a "floor wedge" monitor note. As a professional who has done monitors and house mixes: volume knobs on monitors are evil!!! All they do is mess up everyone elses mixes. 1 Power amp $1000 (PLX) 4 wedges $1600 (an okay brand not top of the line) 4 cables $50 (Livewire lifetime warranty) 1 Dual Band EQ $350 Total $3000 (plus a back breaker to haul around and a pain to EQ at every show.) 1 Sennheiser 300series inear transmitter $650 (UHF, frequency agile, no need for eq, and 2 mono mixes) 4 inear recievers $1200 (4 frequency agile packs, 4 inear buds) Total $1850 (super light, no eq needed, 2 mixes like above, buy another transmitter and you can have 4 seperate mixes, and everyone gets what they want for less $$) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GCDEF Posted March 25, 2006 Members Share Posted March 25, 2006 Originally posted by tlbonehead Do you sidefill your amps? I can easily get my sound to the drummer and bass player w/o being obnoxiously loud by doing so. The closed back cab helps a lot because I can aim my sound pretty tightly. If we play a large stage where we are spread out we just use sidefills for instruments on their own aux. As for the part about lead vocals being louder,etc,that's a good reason for me to want all vocals to be similar volume in the monitors. With decent mic technique and understanding of vocal balance you can feel where you should be volumewise when singing lead or harmonies. I find it easier that way when knowing that the vocal balance in the monitors is a good indication of vocal balance through the mains. Don't sidefill. I'm not very comfortable singing, but I do it just to add another part to the harmonies. I'm more confident if I can hear my own voice more clearly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members glepko Posted March 25, 2006 Members Share Posted March 25, 2006 I find no right or wrong answer for stage monitoring of vocals, from the amateur performer point of view. It's very subjective, different from band to band, and different from room to room, and crowd size dependent to a degree. In my 'perfect' world we would all hear the mix (sans effects) exactly as the FOH so we can react as artists to the other players. That must be a benefit of IEM's. As far as vocals go...I don't like myself being hotter in the mix compared to anything else because I have no idea where I'm fitting and have to focus on it instead of just playing and singing along with the band. As a matter of fact, I'd wager that most of us have better intonation withOUT being in our own monitor at all...providing at least one ear has a high attenuating ear plug. My opinion is that if a bandmate requires his vocals hotter in his monitor, he has no business adding harmonies - chances are it's mucking up the sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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