Apparently size does matter

[ned911]

So we played a huge room last night. 3600 sq.ft with about 300-350 people. Only the dance floor is not carpeted.

 

When we first arrive the manager immediately said "you don't have enough PA". Our PA is a pair of SRX715's and 2 LS700P's. Most bands use pair of JBL double 15's and a pair of double 18" subs which I personnally don't like because this setup always sounds like mud to me. Seems like they never have any midrange. My first reaction was he saw our small setup and was immediately comparing it to the above.

 

Anyway... Before my wireless died I did a walk around on 1 song. Dance floor was loud and thumping (but not chest pounding), about half way back you could hear everything well but order drinks without yelling. I'm sure once the dance floor packed (and it was for the last 3 sets) the subs probably disappeared in the mix.

 

So the trick is can we up the output with our current mains and try different subs or will we need more of everything.

 

Here are the details:

FOH: SRX715's powered by bridged PLX2402 (1200/side)

Subs: LS700P (rented - own 1 ES700P) aux fed

Mixer: Mixwiz3

X-over: VSX26, might go back to the dbx233 until we have more time to tweak the VSX

Band: Rock/Top40 covers (guitar, bass, drums, 3 vocals)

 

To end: We ran 2 NX35's for my volcal and the lead singer, drum monitor was a NX25P and our monitors never sounded better. Unfortunately I think it might have been better than FOH.

[tlbonehead]

So we played a huge room last night. 3600 sq.ft with about 300-350 people. Only the dance floor is not carpeted. When we first arrive the manager immediately said "you don't have enough PA". Our PA is a pair of SRX715's and 2 LS700P's. Most bands use pair of JBL double 15's and a pair of double 18" subs which I personnally don't like because this setup always sounds like mud to me. Seems like they never have any midrange. My first reaction was he saw our small setup and was immediately comparing it to the above. Anyway... Before my wireless died I did a walk around on 1 song. Dance floor was loud and thumping (but not chest pounding), about half way back you could hear everything well but order drinks without yelling. I'm sure once the dance floor packed (and it was for the last 3 sets) the subs probably disappeared in the mix. So the trick is can we up the output with our current mains and try different subs or will we need more of everything. Here are the details: FOH: SRX715's powered by bridged PLX2402 (1200/side) Subs: LS700P (rented - own 1 ES700P) aux fed Mixer: Mixwiz3 X-over: VSX26, might go back to the dbx233 until we have more time to tweak the VSX Band: Rock/Top40 covers (guitar, bass, drums, 3 vocals) To end: We ran 2 NX35's for my volcal and the lead singer, drum monitor was a NX25P and our monitors never sounded better. Unfortunately I think it might have been better than FOH.

1200 watts to a single 2-way top cab?????

That is nuts! It looks like a simple case of need more cone area. I'd get the top cabs back down to 500-600 watts each, double them up, and get some subs that can move more air. That's a lot of people to try and cover with just a pair of small subs. At the very least, if I were to go with Yorkie, I'd want a pair of 1208s or four 808s. Maybe two more of what you have would slide you by, it would certainly help. In clubs that size, I use 4-6 18" e-scoops powered by about 800 watts each.

[agedhorse]

Power compression effects just insure that instead of more SPL, there's more heat and more efficient damage. 1200 watts is too much IMO, but thatr's just my opinion. More speaker will yield you more useable SPL output. 2 cabinets at 600 watts each will give you roughly 3dB more (the equiv. of doubling the power) by a combination of reduction in power compression and some coupling. It may also sound cleaner and tighter as the drivers are behaving more linearly.

 

Same comment applies to subs.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

When we first arrive the manager immediately said "you don't have enough PA".

 

Interesting. Nobody had the slightest inkling of this until you were loading in? And... what exactly did the manager expect you to do about it at that particular time and place? Pull a big enough PA out of your posterior?

 

You know... carrying out a Cornish hen sized turkey out to the Thanksgiving table... on Thanksgiving day, with the family packed around the table... that's not the time to start counting heads and sizing up the suitability of the turkey and decide then if there's enough to cover the venue.

 

IMO: I assume the manager probably hired you. Load in is not the time to start asking questions. If you didn't misrepresent you product during contract negoiations... I'd say what the manager bought is what the manager got; therefore, if he hired a band without enough beef to feed the bulldog... that's the manager's problem, not your's.

[tlbonehead]

Interesting. Nobody had the slightest inkling of this until you were loading in? And... what exactly did the manager expect you to do about it at that particular time and place? Pull a big enough PA out of your posterior?

 

QUOTE]

My thought for the day? It takes a large ass to hold a large PA.

[ned911]

It's a chain, we were booked by HQ. We play the other locations and our PA (while still a tad short of sub) works fine but the other rooms are half the size. I checked with the booking manager and other bands if there was anything different about this room that I should know. The only response I got was that the crowds were better and that they knew how to have a good time. Which was true - best crowd we've ever played for.

 

What I should have gotten in hindsight was- the room is 2x the room you usually play please bring enough PA.

 

What I'm looking for is how some discussion on what to focus on PA wise so this isn't an issue again.

 

Also, we didn't need more width of coverage just the ability to be louder farther back - room had more depth than width.

 

Just for discussion... JBLpro.com recommends 2 vrx932la's over 1 vrx918 per side driven by an i-tech 4000. Each 932 would get 1000 watts and the 918 would get 1250. In this situation there is 49" more speaker area powered by 800 more watts that our srx715's and 60" less speaker area getting 550 more watts on the sub side.

[tlbonehead]

 

It's a chain, we were booked by HQ. We play the other locations and our PA (while still a tad short of sub) works fine but the other rooms are half the size. I checked with the booking manager and other bands if there was anything different about this room that I should know. The only response I got was that the crowds were better and that they knew how to have a good time. Which was true - best crowd we've ever played for. What I should have gotten in hindsight was- the room is 2x the room you usually play please bring enough PA. What I'm looking for is how some discussion on what to focus on PA wise so this isn't an issue again. Also, we didn't need more width of coverage just the ability to be louder farther back - room had more depth than width. Just for discussion... JBLpro.com recommends 2 vrx932la's over 1 vrx918 per side driven by an i-tech 4000. Each 932 would get 1000 watts and the 918 would get 1250. In this situation there is 49" more speaker area powered by 800 more watts that our srx715's and 60" less speaker area getting 550 more watts on the sub side.

 

I wasn't (I don't think Andy was either)talking about adding more cabs for greater dispersion. I was talking about it for greater power handling ability, which obviously should equate to more volume and push. Same with subs.

[dboomer]

 

Most bands use pair of JBL double 15's and a pair of double 18" subs which I personnally don't like because this setup always sounds like mud to me. Seems like they never have any midrange. .

 

 

I just gotta call you on this one. If they sound like midrange mud then they simply are not set up correctly ... period! It's called an equalizer:thu: and whoever set it up must not know about them.

 

The only penalty in using double 15's over subs is you probably won't get all of the output you paid for because you'll be rolling out of the 15's while they still have lots out output left thereby wasting it.

 

On the other hand ... if you took this same setup and fed the subs from and aux and ran the dual 15 cabs down to 90 - 100 Hz you'd have a kick ass system. You've got a VSX26 so it's easy to do. It would probably help out the speaker setup you already have

[tlbonehead]

 

I just gotta call you on this one. If they sound like midrange mud then they simply are not set up correctly ... period! It's called an equalizer:thu: and whoever set it up must not know about them. The only penalty in using double 15's over subs is you probably won't get all of the output you paid for because you'll be rolling out of the 15's while they still have lots out output left thereby wasting it. On the other hand ... if you took this same setup and fed the subs from and aux and ran the dual 15 cabs down to 90 - 100 Hz you'd have a kick ass system. You've got a VSX26 so it's easy to do. It would probably help out the speaker setup you already have

 

I do agree 100%. You would probably cut some "gooey" frequencies somewhere in the 90-300hz range and the other frequencies would have room to show up and be heard again. And again, the strongest capabilities of most dual 15" cabs would be the frequencies that you would be lowering a bit. So you wouldn't be utilizing the speaker's strengths to it fullest.

[ned911]

Never said I had 2x15 mains I have 1x15" mains. Other bands in Texas that use 2x15 over 2x18 subs tend to have a very muddy mix.

 

After reading my original post I didn't do a good job of making my point clear (got home at 5am so I'm a bit sleep deprived). I think the first reaction from the manager was based on the fact that we were loading in 2x15 over 2x18 or 4x18 subs.

 

From the dance floor and the first 2 rows of tables our volume was fine. Probably could have used a little more thump. We never try to subdue the back of our normal venue (which can be easily reached with a 100' snake) mainly because most people sit back there to not be overwhelmed by volume.

 

I think we just need to get different subs and spend more time tweaking on the VSX. Bass player is going to try and get us into the auditorium of his kids elementary school after hours so we can tweak in a large space.

 

It couldn't have been to bad - no one left or at least every table was full all night, the bar area was full and the dance floor packed for the last 3 sets.

[Al Poulin]

 

Never said I had 2x15 mains I have 1x15" mains. Other bands in Texas that use 2x15 over 2x18 subs tend to have a very muddy mix. After reading my original post I didn't do a good job of making my point clear (got home at 5am so I'm a bit sleep deprived). I think the first reaction from the manager was based on the fact that we were loading in 2x15 over 2x18 or 4x18 subs. From the dance floor and the first 2 rows of tables our volume was fine. Probably could have used a little more thump. We never try to subdue the back of our normal venue (which can be easily reached with a 100' snake) mainly because most people sit back there to not be overwhelmed by volume. I think we just need to get different subs and spend more time tweaking on the VSX. Bass player is going to try and get us into the auditorium of his kids elementary school after hours so we can tweak in a large space. It couldn't have been to bad - no one left or at least every table was full all night, the bar area was full and the dance floor packed for the last 3 sets.

 

 

 

 

If I would have been playing that same room as a DJ for a wedding for that amount of people, the level and amount of thump would have been just right with 2 LS700Ps.

For live music however, 4 LS700Ps or 2 LS800Ps would have probably been better to give you the thump you needed. It's just the nature of live music.... The LS800Ps would go a little deeper than the LS700Ps. Al

[tlbonehead]

Never said I had 2x15 mains I have 1x15" mains. Other bands in Texas that use 2x15 over 2x18 subs tend to have a very muddy mix. After reading my original post I didn't do a good job of making my point clear (got home at 5am so I'm a bit sleep deprived). I think the first reaction from the manager was based on the fact that we were loading in 2x15 over 2x18 or 4x18 subs. From the dance floor and the first 2 rows of tables our volume was fine. Probably could have used a little more thump. We never try to subdue the back of our normal venue (which can be easily reached with a 100' snake) mainly because most people sit back there to not be overwhelmed by volume. I think we just need to get different subs and spend more time tweaking on the VSX. Bass player is going to try and get us into the auditorium of his kids elementary school after hours so we can tweak in a large space. It couldn't have been to bad - no one left or at least every table was full all night, the bar area was full and the dance floor packed for the last 3 sets.

Well, if you thought things were just fine you probably wouldn't have made a thread, would you? You've addressed that you would like a little more low-end thump. That's very easy to rectify. And you still have the problem of severely overpowering your top cabs. In order to keep the same volume there w/o overpowering them would mean that you need to add more box capability.

[drumstix]

I dont care much for double 15's either, I would shoot for a set of SRX 722's and either 718s or 728s. The 718s sound great and probably just 2 of them coupled together would bring some major bass to the table without having to move around big heavy dual 18"s. The Dualies will probably go louder and deeper but much harder to get around and most places probably over kill. The SRX718 is the same sub as the VRX without the fly-ware. You can find them for about $650 on up online. Ive ran anywhere from 700w to 1700w a box (very carefully) just to see or hear the difference. SRX boxes can take lots of power, I try not to do this myself, I want to keep things a while. Probably with just a couple of 718s you would have been fine but if I had a dream setup for a building like that I would like to have had 4 718s and a pair of 722's, or the VRX boxes you have mentioned. Just for the size and weight benefits alone those boxes would be sweet to have! The hardest thing I had to deal with using a set of 722s was getting them high enough without poles.

[agedhorse]

Except for all the "midrange" of the cheaper dual 15's being modulated by the LF excursion of the 15's because the horn is too whimpy to cross down low enough to minimize this effect.

[guitarharv52]

There sure seems to be a lot of talk about dual 15's lately.Speaking of people in the back wanting to talk,last week a group of about 4 or 5 came in and got the last table which was just a few feet directly in front of a sub and complained about it being loud.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

What I'm looking for is how some discussion on what to focus on PA wise so this isn't an issue again.

 

Good plan.

 

I guess part of the plan would be to objectively look at the seemingly required upgrade and ask is it worth it for this one room? There is something to be said for sizing your rig to meet the upper end of your calls, if that upper end is still within reason compared to your more standard sized gigs.

 

I'm a little sensitive to this general subject (as it's something I deal with often). My system is scaleable, to a certain point. But, there is an upper limit to the jobs I can effectively cover. My pricing is also scaleable, and there is an upper limit to what I charge (max of $750, plus milage, etc... for my full PA system). Promoters generally seem to like to talk price first... other details later (if ever). My full rig will only effective cover a max 500 cap crowd... MAX. Regardless of the "fit" on the price, I can't effectively cover a 2000 cap crowd with my rig, anymore-so than what I can plug 32 inputs into my 24ch. board. And no, I'm not gonna rod the piss out of my rig in an attempt to cover a 2000 person crowd, when the promoter only wants to pay for my 500 capacity coverage system.

[derrick]

if you need more low end, and like the sound of the subs you,ve got, get two more. we do small clubs with two es700p subs and use four for larger venues. we get a good thump with four of those small boxes.

[Audiopyle Sound]

Ned,

 

I'm assuming that you did have the two subs coupled? When you are running them on an aux, where do you highpass the tops?

[ned911]

They were coupled, centered at the foot of the stage about 8 inches from the stage. Tops HP'd at 90HZ which is what JBL has in their driverack settings.

 

Part of the original intent, that I did a very poor job communicating, was a club manager can develop an immediate bias against you simply due to the size of your rig. If he/she percieves that it is not adequet because your not loading in umpteen speakers may very well set you on the wrong foot at the start of the gig.

 

In this situation I think we over came the bias with a packed dance floor and a manager that recognized we delivered a profitable night, didn't send customers away, etc.

[W. M. Hellinger]

Part of the original intent, that I did a very poor job communicating, was a club manager can develop an immediate bias against you simply due to the size of your rig. If he/she percieves that it is not adequet because your not loading in umpteen speakers may very well set you on the wrong foot at the start of the gig. In this situation I think we over came the bias with a packed dance floor and a manager that recognized we delivered a profitable night, didn't send customers away, etc.

Well... there you go.

 

I see this all the time with my Meyer rig:

 

1) It's not very big (well, not as impressive to some (most) as a pile of SRX 4719's and 4735's).

 

2) It never "hurts" (read that: it doesn't seem to get "loud"... but funny thing is, the vocals and lead instruments are clearly distinguishable).

 

But... it typically tickles the crowd just fine... usually many compliments on the quality of the sound... and very few complaints on a possible lack of seeming sheer quantity.

 

I'd rather field many compliments on the quality of the sound and field a few complaints on lacking quantity rather than field a few compliments on the sheer quantity... and the associated complaints that go with universally perceived massive quantity.

[Rbts]

Yea, this is actually what I took away from your original post.... sounds like the club manager was judging your sytem by what it LOOKED like, before he even heard it. Now maybe he was sophisticated enough in his experience that he actually knew what he was looking at, I don't know, but if the (fairly large) dance floor was packed for the last three sets, it sounds like a pretty good gig to me.

 

I think you know that your PA is not that big. Those are not huge subs by any means really, and a good place to start getting some more balls for your system would be like has already been said, either get two more of the LS 700P subs or up grade to two LS 800P subs. This is IF you want to get additional equipment to get more balls for your system. Maybe you think (like a packed dance floor full of people apparently did) that your system sounds pretty OK the way it is.

[Al Poulin]

I remember setting up really quickly for the dance at a small out of town wedding many years ago (75 people maybe). The speeches (house system) had run long - it was now 10PM and I hadn't been allowed to set my system up before the speeches were over so in I rushed to set up my stuff while everyone took a short intermission before the first dance. I remember I had a pair of SP2s, a Peavey CS1000 amp and a mixer. I guess it really wouldn't look like a big system to most people... Anyway, a group of five guys were watching me set up and laughing, pointing at what they called ''his small speakers''. I guess they were used to big double 15s with 7 piezos. Anyway, they were really starting to piss me off....and I was young and somewhat immature so.....

 

Once everything was plugged in, I turn the amp levels to the max position. Put up the gains on my mixer. Put up the gain on my mic, intentionnally much much higher than I should... And with a little grin on my face, yell out a very clear ''Check one, two Check one two''

 

 

It was loud.

 

Damn loud.

 

I scared the crap out of the five guys.

 

Forgetting that there were other people in the hall, I'm sure I nearly gave this old lady a heart attack.

 

I think some older guy had to go change his Depends.

 

It was immature. Yes.

It was fun. Yes.

 

Did they laugh at my system again during the night. NO.

 

A pair of SP2s powered by a CS1000 in a 100 person capacity hall can be pretty damn loud... Al

[Unalaska]

When playing a new venue you need to see the room yourself. I've made the same mistake but almost always when I screw up it's cuz I brough too much (double 18's etc). That you can somewhat scale down, but there is no going the other way.

 

Sounds like you should have rented the double 18's and double 15's from a sound provider whose worked in that room before. The double 15 thing can be a pain if using low end boxes but assuming you're playing for 300+ peeps then you should be getting SRX or better. The manager has seen inadaquate PA's before and not knowing a thing about them he prolly was put off by the size of the cabs.

 

That it went so well is great, clarity can be found in using more boxes and less power. Driving a speaker to it limits means it will do strange things, like navigating a car at 120mph when it's much easier at 60. Anyway I'm glad it went well for you. I've had gigs where I didn't advance the show and showed up with a double 18 stack per side and it wasn't enough. Just get the cabs up high, couple the subs and don't drive the snot out of the system.

p

[Audiopyle Sound]

I don't see any problem with the amount of power you are giving the tops. The SRX cabs need a lot of power to get decent levels out of them.

 

If you feel the subs are marginal you could try adding one more. I bumped up my subs in the biggest venues I do from 4 - LA400s to 6 and it made a big difference.

[congaron]

It would be an interesting study to survey how many (if any) people actually miss the "extra thump" if they can hear every word of every song and every instrument playing in the mix...all night. I'd wager "adequate thump" might be just fine to more people than we might imagine. Yesterday, we attended two church services. At the sunrise service, the multipurpose facility had an actual homemade PA speaker hung in the "sweet spot" for preaching, with two old peavy's of some unknown size (didn't investigate) as side fill right on the stage floor. The room is basketball court size, full of tables for the breakfast and lots of steel structure everywhere. You could hear every instrument, every vocal, and the people sounded like we know they sound off mike. The drums were a v-drum kit, and were mixed lower than most praise teams would mix them. The band was tight, and well rehearsed. The end result was...no flash, no bling, but ultra clear sound and a great worship experience. I've see it much worse with much more "thump" intended to help people "engage" in worship. At our own church..well, lets say 45 minutes of practice on 8 songs (four were new)..do the math. No amount of thump is going to salvage that. It's really in the quality of the band and the mix, IMHO. If the crowd loved it, you did well.

 

God bless!

 

-Ron