Members solomaniac17 Posted December 15, 2007 Members Share Posted December 15, 2007 So i work at a music store, I have been trouble shooting a karaoke setup for a customer. his problem is a feedback situation. Ive done the ins/outs about speaker and mic placement in his room, and also showed him a crash course on dialing in the system, and dialing out over compensated frequencies with his 1/3 octave eq. Lack of experience plays a big part in the reasoning for not being able to resolve the feedback situation. so as a sales person i suggested a feedback destroyer. I have never worked with the behringer dsp1124, but thats the product I have to deal with, and I cannot get it to work. anyone have any experience with it ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted December 15, 2007 Members Share Posted December 15, 2007 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted December 15, 2007 Members Share Posted December 15, 2007 We wish you luck.... You might be better off without the Behringer. dbx has units that actually work. Speaker placement might be the answer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted December 15, 2007 Members Share Posted December 15, 2007 What speakers are you using? also which mic are you using? and what eq are you using? Also never had any luck with the Behringer FB unit what I use for my monitors is a Sabine FBX which works great for my applications when mixing from the stage which works damn Skippy for us takes about 4 seconds to set the filters and we're done and no freaking FB. Unless of course when our idiot singer drops the mic down to his side right in front of the wedge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Danny (NS::U) Posted December 16, 2007 Members Share Posted December 16, 2007 My impression of the Behringer feedback destroyers is that they are a very mediocre destroyer of feedback, but are actually fairly passable at being parametric EQ's. If my only choice was the Behringer, I'd use a parametric filter to zero in on and the feedback area and bump it downwards, as opposed to trying to get the unit to do it for me. (Edit for full disclosure: I have two Behringer feedback destroyers doing EQ duty on my monitor sends. They've never given me a problem, but they have been treated very gently.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wvuviv30 Posted December 16, 2007 Members Share Posted December 16, 2007 hahaha.. when I first started, I tried alot of things... I had more feedback with the Behringer feedback destroyer. It was the 1 rack space one; I tried it for about month... never made it through a complete show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mitsu13gman Posted December 16, 2007 Members Share Posted December 16, 2007 Just to try to give the OP some hope: I have used the original Behringer feedback killer with good success in the past. We genuinely got a measureable improvement in gain-before-feedback with it in the chain vs. without. Since then, we have upgraded our speakers and the need for the Behringer is gone - I can point a mic at our mains and not get feedback. Same with the monitors. One major problem with the Behringer is setting levels. In my experience that device runs very hot even on its lower sensitivity setting. Turn down the input trim on the amp and make sure you're getting the same level out of the amp (after the gain of the Behringer) to make sure it's not introducing excessive gain where you don't want it. After that, you might try performing the factory reset procedure outlined in the manual to see if your unit has some wonky settings in it. Finally, you might try a physically different unit, as (is well discussed here) Behringer's quality control can be spotty. There was an extensive discussion of these devices about a week ago, you might look it up to see if it gives you any hints for your specific operating situation. Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members solomaniac17 Posted December 19, 2007 Author Members Share Posted December 19, 2007 I was using Nx55p's and a beta 58 when i was testing the unit and trying to feel it out, I still didnt get any response. Once again if it were for me personally. well...i wouldnt have one, i have a few 1/3 octave eq's they do just fine however, the cusomer it is for is very inexperienced. I was thinking this fbq device would definetly do the trick and automatically filter out atleast the first 2 frequencies that could be of any possible problem. Im thinking i might just get him into a behringer 15 band eq with the fbq detection system that lights up.. then he can just look for the light to eq with... thanx everyone for your advice! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted December 19, 2007 Members Share Posted December 19, 2007 Behringers destroy anything BUT feedback. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 19, 2007 Members Share Posted December 19, 2007 so as a sales person i suggested a feedback destroyer. I have never worked with the behringer dsp1124, but thats the product I have to deal with, and I cannot get it to work. anyone have any experience with it ? So how about suggesting one that really works? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted December 19, 2007 Members Share Posted December 19, 2007 YEA BUDDY! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted December 19, 2007 Members Share Posted December 19, 2007 So how about suggesting one that really works? I was thinking the same thing. As a salesman, I would suggest something that actually works and not just the cheapest, handiest thing. I would suggest a Peavey or dbx unit. They cost more because they work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted December 19, 2007 Members Share Posted December 19, 2007 I was using Nx55p's and a beta 58 when i was testing the unit and trying to feel it out, I still didnt get any response. Once again if it were for me personally. well...i wouldnt have one, i have a few 1/3 octave eq's they do just fine however, the cusomer it is for is very inexperienced. I was thinking this fbq device would definetly do the trick and automatically filter out atleast the first 2 frequencies that could be of any possible problem. Im thinking i might just get him into a behringer 15 band eq with the fbq detection system that lights up.. then he can just look for the light to eq with... thanx everyone for your advice! well the 15 band is going to suck, go 30. 9 times/10 it is going to be a speaker /mic placement issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted December 19, 2007 Members Share Posted December 19, 2007 Wow. A salesman that doesn't seem to know too much about what he sells... a 15 band is WAY to wide to do much good. A 31 band will help. As mentioned before, it seems like a speaker placement problem more than an EQ problem. Engineer out the problem first before throwing a customers good money away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wvuviv30 Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 Since then, we have upgraded our speakers and the need for the Behringer is gone - I can point a mic at our mains and not get feedback. Same with the monitors. Mike, What was your old system? What what system did you upgrade to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mitsu13gman Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 Matt, Our old system was some truly ancient Peavey tops that appeared to have both a CD horn AND a piezo driver in them. We didn't use monitors, so these speakers were the monitors for the whole group, and getting any useable gain was nearly impossible. They were also terribly inefficient, so we were hammering the system just to get any useable output. In that application, the FBX did a remarkable job. The band as a whole were completely amazed at how much louder we could get the vocal mics without feedback. I will freely admit that I never even tried a graphic eq in that application. I didn't really know what I was doing at the time, and the automatic nature of the FBX was really right in the ballpark for what we needed. It sounded like the OP had a similar situation, and I thought it fair to indicate that I had success as long as the expectations were not astronomical. Since then, I've gone to the latest Peavey SP5's (currently powered by an old PowerLight 1.8 in stereo), and I also added 2 SP12M wedges (each powered by one channel of a Samson F800). But even when we just had one SP5 (I had to buy the system piecemeal since I was broke), we got enough level to hear both keys and vocals. As I said, I can literally point my mic (Rat-Shack SM58 copy) at the speakers with no feedback. Our signer uses a Shure wireless headset (keyboard player/singer combo), and our guitar player sings into an SM57. I have NO EQ in the mains or monitors, and the only feedback issue I have is if I try to take the singer's head off with his vocal wedge, which he doesn't even use live, as he brings his own monitor. I'd like to add a graphic to the monitors, but I'm more focused on getting us a sub at this point. Once I've got the big pieces, I can fill in the little details here and there. Is there anything specific I've left out that you're curious about? I know you're running the U15/UCS1 combo - must be killer! I wish I could afford to go that route, but it's just not realistic for a basement band that plays once a month at best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 Matt,As I said, I can literally point my mic (Rat-Shack SM58 copy) at the speakers with no feedback. Before anyone starts believing that you have a magic system of some kind ... let's keep this straight. Distance and gain are the limiting factors here. You can do this with ANY system ... until the distance and gain factors push you over the unity threshold. Your new system simply has a higher threshold than your older one and for your purposes you get they gain that YOU need. This same system in the hands and needs of others would not behave this way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 Before anyone starts believing that you have a magic system of some kind ... let's keep this straight. Distance and gain are the limiting factors here. You can do this with ANY system ... until the distance and gain factors push you over the unity threshold. Your new system simply has a higher threshold than your older one and for your purposes you get they gain that YOU need. This same system in the hands and needs of others would not behave this way. Thanks for doing the dirty work Don Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mitsu13gman Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 Thanks for doing the dirty work Don Sorry guys, just trying to relate what I found. I didn't think I'd said anything THAT out there, though I think I kind of see what happened. I was trying to encourage the OP to try a few more things before giving up or assuming the unit in question was junk. In so doing I mentioned that a speaker upgrade had rendered the feedback killer unnecessary for my application. Matt then asked what the speaker upgrade had been, and I answered. Naively, it would appear. In re-reading it, I can see how it was misconstrued, but rest assured that was never my intention. I would have hoped that my ooh-ing and ahh-ing over Matt's rig would have sufficiently suggested that I didn't think my system was the living end, but alas, it didn't. Anyway, I apologize for making implicit claims about the gear I'm using. I realize a more appropriate response to Matt's question would have been something to the effect that "I know it isn't these speakers uniquely that fixed the problem, but by the way, here's what I'm using." Mike Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members John Ellis Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 So i work at a music store, I have been trouble shooting a karaoke setup for a customer. his problem is a feedback situation. Ive done the ins/outs about speaker and mic placement in his room, and also showed him a crash course on dialing in the system, and dialing out over compensated frequencies with his 1/3 octave eq. Lack of experience plays a big part in the reasoning for not being able to resolve the feedback situation. so as a sales person i suggested a feedback destroyer. I have never worked with the behringer dsp1124, but thats the product I have to deal with, and I cannot get it to work. anyone have any experience with it ? Why not a noisegate on the mike? And then teach him where the fader is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 Hey Mike Nobody is picking on you ... just trying to point out the reason that you got the result you did. You did absolutely the right thing by improving the situation with better speakers. When possible it's the right thing to do. However there will come a point (dictated by the distances between mic and speaker and the overall gain) where something else will be needed (and of course there will come a point where that doesn't work too). Feedback exterminators will give you about 3 dB improvement in a moderately crappy system and as much as 9 dB in a decent system that has been balanced out and set up properly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted December 20, 2007 CMS Author Share Posted December 20, 2007 Why not a noisegate on the mike? And then teach him where the fader is. A noisegate on a vocal mic is not a good solution...you'll typically find the gate opens too late and vocals become 'notchy', or stage volume bleeds in and opens it when you don't want. But mostly the problem is that vocal mic feedback very often occurs during singing, so he'd still have a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mitsu13gman Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 Hey Mike Nobody is picking on you ... just trying to point out the reason that you got the result you did. You did absolutely the right thing by improving the situation with better speakers. When possible it's the right thing to do. However there will come a point (dictated by the distances between mic and speaker and the overall gain) where something else will be needed (and of course there will come a point where that doesn't work too). Feedback exterminators will give you about 3 dB improvement in a moderately crappy system and as much as 9 dB in a decent system that has been balanced out and set up properly. Don, Sorry - when you and Andy jump on a post, it's usually because the poster is saying something that, in Amateur Radio parlance, "poses an immediate threat to life or property." (can you tell I just passed my General ticket?) Normally it's obvious to me why a post contains such information, and if it's not, I usually assume that there's critical information about to be disseminated. In this case I really didn't see what had incited the response, but after consideration I figured it out. Anyway, no big deal. Just making sure I realized what I had said that was questionable. But now you've piqued my curiosity. Brand and model aside, how is it that a less-tuned system responds worse to the feedback killer than a well-tuned system? Is it that the poorly tuned system is so close to feeding back on so many frequencies that killing a couple just leaves you close on others? Or is it that the well-tuned system is generally only responding to an egregious operator error (sound person or talent), so usually it's a very specific frequency and once notched the total GBF comes back? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted December 20, 2007 Members Share Posted December 20, 2007 The reason we jumped in on this was the comment about pointing the mic at the speaker being taken out of the context of limitations of gain before feedback. I could see somebody trying this at home then looking for replacement diaphrams or repairs shortly thereafter. The reason for good basic design being responsible for better GBF improvements, the problem is that a feedback destroyer just can't adequately resolve gross frequency and phase problems, especially those due to driver and crossover problems. These are most adequately delt with initially in the design and implimentation, not in corrective action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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