Members paulwannabe Posted February 9, 2008 Members Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm struggling to get a decent monitor mix without feedback. I can't afford to buy a brand new FBX unit, and I was wondering if anyone has had experience with this one: http://cgi.ebay.com/Sabine-FBX-2020-Auto-Feedback-Exterminator-FBX2020-Plus_W0QQitemZ330209235657QQihZ014QQcategoryZ23790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I know it's outdated, but if it works I'll go with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Not Serial Posted February 9, 2008 Members Share Posted February 9, 2008 it might *help*, but i doubt it would *solve*. what wedges/eqs/mics are you using for your monitor system? does every person have their own mix? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 9, 2008 Members Share Posted February 9, 2008 Added to a "tuned" system I would expect an increase of between 4 to 10 times the level before feedback. Added to a "who knows what" system, about double to 4 times. Just a note for anyone picking up used Sabine gear on Ebay ... FBX "Plus" is still a supported product and will be until Jun of 2009. Any FBX's older that that are no longer supported. There is no factory service available. We support gear for 5 years after it is discontinued. Remember ... these things are computers and nobody is still fixing 286's. An FBX 2020 Plus will still do what it always did. Are you still using your 2004 computer? The new model units are quicker at finding feedback, the filters are more precise and the circuitry is a bit quieter. That said it probably won't make a great deal of difference. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 9, 2008 Members Share Posted February 9, 2008 I'm struggling to get a decent monitor mix without feedback. I can't afford to buy a brand new FBX unit, and I was wondering if anyone has had experience with this one:http://cgi.ebay.com/Sabine-FBX-2020-Auto-Feedback-Exterminator-FBX2020-Plus_W0QQitemZ330209235657QQihZ014QQcategoryZ23790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItemI know it's outdated, but if it works I'll go with it. Maybe you should figure out what the problem really is. What's your gear? Are you using a 31 band properly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Real MC Posted February 9, 2008 Members Share Posted February 9, 2008 The FBX may fix the symptom but not the disease. There are soooooooo many variables in the system that can contribute feedback. Polar response of the mic, resonances in the monitor, reflections in the room. In my experience the items that went a long way to reducing feedback were the right mic, a good 31 band graphic EQ with variable hi-cut and lo-cut filters, and a decent compressor on the channel insert. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members amarule Posted February 9, 2008 Members Share Posted February 9, 2008 It will eq out the offending frequencies, however the end result may be no better, and perhaps worse, than simply turning the overall monitor volume down. As others have noted, you need to address the root of the problem. Could be you are simply trying to achieve more SPL than your system is capable of, or that the band needs to turn down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted February 10, 2008 Members Share Posted February 10, 2008 I use a Feedback Ferret D. I like it a lot. With my old PA set-up almost every filter (16) would get set during "ring-out". Since I've up-graded our monitor speakers, the unit usually only sets 3 to 5 filters during ring-out (at a much louder volume then we'll actually use) and it might catch another 1 or 2 during the performance (I have never actually heard feedback, you just notice the extra lights during tear-down). Last week we couldn't get the unit to set a single filter during ring-out. It set one during the performance. So it's still doing it's intended job, but its no longer the equivalent sticking a finger in a crumbling dam. It works great, but having a monitor circuit that isn't prone to feedback really is a better place to start. Another benefit of not having the FBX unit set 16 filters is that our monitor mix sounds a lot better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 10, 2008 Members Share Posted February 10, 2008 The FBX may fix the symptom but not the disease. Feedback cannot be "fixed" ... it can only be managed. There are two primary factors that cause feedback. One is the distance from the speaker to the mic and the other is the gain produced in the loop. You can only go so far managing either or both of these factors ... there are limits. Turning down will of course reduce feedback but if you can't hear the monitors at the level you need to what's the point of even having monitors. As far as 1/3rd octave EQ ... it can only help with the "gain" factor. It cannot help with the "distance" factor. Only moving the distance the speaker is from the mic can handle that one. Extremely narrow notch filters in a PEQ or FBX can cut out the peaks caused by distance. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 10, 2008 Members Share Posted February 10, 2008 They work just fine I use one along with a DBX 215 GEQ I know the expert say 15 bands aint enough but hell with the 215 and FBX I have plenty of monitor SPL and no FB problems. IMO their great for bands that mix on the stage I agree they won't beat a experienced SE with his trusty old faithful 31 band eq but for on the fly mixing they work great. Also see my signature PM if interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 10, 2008 Members Share Posted February 10, 2008 They work just fine I use one along with a DBX 215 GEQ I know the expert say 15 bands aint enough but hell with the 215 and FBX I have plenty of monitor SPL and no FB problems. IMO their great for bands that mix on the stage I agree they won't beat a experienced SE with his trusty old faithful 31 band eq but for on the fly mixing they work great. Also see my signature PM if interested. Why you sell if it is such an indespensible piece? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Why you sell if it is such an indespensible piece? Why I'm selling it, because I have 3 more just like them and our singer just recently bought his own IEM so he doesn't his own personal wedge anymore is that good enough for ya Tbone anything else you need to know I gotta telex wireless for sale as well a Peavey Valveking 100 watt tube head also got a Tube screamer and fixing to get some more gear if your interested in something maybe PM and I can get for ya. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members tlbonehead Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Why I'm selling it, because I have 3 more just like them and our singer just recently bought his own IEM so he doesn't his own personal wedge anymore is that good enough for ya Tbone anything else you need to know I gotta telex wireless for sale as well a Peavey Valveking 100 watt tube head also got a Tube screamer and fixing to get some more gear if your interested in something maybe PM and I can get for ya.I'll trade you some punctuation for gear! :poke::wave: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members twostone Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Oh oh the grammar Nazi again:cop: um what's worst wrong punctuation or spelling take a pick I turn off the auto speller and then I can really challenge ya with grammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulwannabe Posted February 11, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Turning down will of course reduce feedback but if you can't hear the monitors at the level you need to what's the point of even having monitors. Amen to that. That's really my problem in a nutshell. I haven't been able to achieve sufficient gain before feedback. Ok, to answer everyone's questions, here's what I'm using in my monitor setup: Mics: Behringer XM8500 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-XM8500-Mic-3Pack?sku=270403) Mixer: Allen & Heath 16-channel MixWiz (http://www.miracosta.cc.ca.us/home/mnolte/wz16usr.pdf) Amp: Mackie 1400i (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mackie-M1400i-Power-Amp?sku=487205&src=3SOSWXXA) Monitors: Yamaha Club Series II 15" monitors (8 ohms, 100W handling) I also have an Alesis 3630 Compressor if that helps. Until recently, I was using 2 Behringer GEQ3102 31-band graphic EQ's to do the job, but I have removed them from the rack and am currently looking for a better solution. Right now, I would be happy with one monitor mix that is sufficiently loud and feedback free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cavy Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 We use yamaha monitors and a Behringer 31 band eq for our monitors and they work quite well. We only run 1 mix. We also have a competent dedicated SE and that's our biggest asset. We use a Beyer Dynamic something or other for the lead vocal, then a Senn e845 and a AKG something for our backing vox. I don't know if maybe you should look into improving your mics? Our lead singer sings quite high so we need to run fairly loud monitors for him to be able to hear himself well and make his voice last. And generally we have no problems with feedback and trying to get him the gain he needs. If it helps, for our singer we run 2 yamaha BR12's in a "v-shape" with his mic directly inbetween. We flip one monitor over so both tweeters are on the outside. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members picker13 Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Mics: Behringer XM8500I also have an Alesis 3630 Compressor if that helps. Maybe getting mics with better gain before feedback profiles is an option for you. And (hopefully) you're using the 3630 as a doorstop? Compressing channels giving you feedback can make it worse. Make sure you're not using that unit anywhere in the signal path involved with the feedback until you've got the feedback taken care of, if ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Maybe getting mics with better gain before feedback profiles is an option for you. And (hopefully) you're using the 3630 as a doorstop? Compressing channels giving you feedback can make it worse. Make sure you're not using that unit anywhere in the signal path involved with the feedback until you've got the feedback taken care of, if ever. Agreed. I would remove the compression until you sort-out your feedback. Can you borrow some different (i.e. SM58) mics from a friendly band to give 'em a try? That was one of my strategies for feedback elimination - get rid of the cheap mics. It made a difference. Where I had a mix of PG58's, a Q7 and a crappy Stageworks mic, I now have all SM58's. We sound better and I did pick-up a noticeable increase in gain.Really, I think your mics are the week link here. I have also found that a distance from monitor to mic (think of a plumb line from the front of the mic) of about 3 feet works well. I place the horn directly behind the mic. And I'll say it yet again, Feedback Ferrets work. Ask a local music store that carries Pro gear for a demo. Heck, come to my gig this weekend and I'll let you run sound for the evening. You'll have nothing to do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 Try better mics and ditch the compressor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cavy Posted February 11, 2008 Members Share Posted February 11, 2008 I'll just add that we DO use a DBX166 on the insert of our lead vocalist. I think we had our feedback problems fairly ironed out before we got it though... can someone explain how the compressor in the signal chain for the monitors will increase the chances of feedback? I don't get it. Is it b/c the peaks in the level are tamed so you tend to increase the gain? Is it because a compressor will also increase the gain on both soft vocal inputs and soft feedback? I've always wondered why people recommend trying to keep it out of the monitors if possible. Seems to me that the more even the input, then the less the chances for that stray peak to start the feedback cycle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Is it b/c the peaks in the level are tamed so you tend to increase the gain? Yes, exactly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dboomer Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Yep ... they usually increase the gain. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wvuviv30 Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Amen to that. That's really my problem in a nutshell. I haven't been able to achieve sufficient gain before feedback.Ok, to answer everyone's questions, here's what I'm using in my monitor setup:Mics: Behringer XM8500 (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Behringer-XM8500-Mic-3Pack?sku=270403)Mixer: Allen & Heath 16-channel MixWiz (http://www.miracosta.cc.ca.us/home/mnolte/wz16usr.pdf)Amp: Mackie 1400i (http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Mackie-M1400i-Power-Amp?sku=487205&src=3SOSWXXA)Monitors: Yamaha Club Series II 15" monitors (8 ohms, 100W handling)I also have an Alesis 3630 Compressor if that helps.Until recently, I was using 2 Behringer GEQ3102 31-band graphic EQ's to do the job, but I have removed them from the rack and am currently looking for a better solution. Right now, I would be happy with one monitor mix that is sufficiently loud and feedback free. You have a $1000 board and $30 mics... There Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members paulwannabe Posted February 12, 2008 Author Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Thanks for all the advice. I'll see what I can do to upgrade my mics. I have a friend that I could borrow an SM58 from. I'll see if that makes a difference. But I think I could definitely still use an FBX unit. How recent is this unit, and does anyone have experience with it? http://cgi.ebay.com/DBX-AFS-224-Feedback-Suppression-Processor_W0QQitemZ140205072881QQihZ004QQcategoryZ23790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wvuviv30 Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 alright so your trying to fix your system with a Band-aid, when its surely the choice of mics that is causing the problem. Don't waste you money on Feedback destroyer when it will cause more problems down the road. Spend the money to fix your problem instead of trying to cover it up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gary in NJ Posted February 12, 2008 Members Share Posted February 12, 2008 Thanks for all the advice. I'll see what I can do to upgrade my mics. I have a friend that I could borrow an SM58 from. I'll see if that makes a difference. But I think I could definitely still use an FBX unit. How recent is this unit, and does anyone have experience with it?http://cgi.ebay.com/DBX-AFS-224-Feedback-Suppression-Processor_W0QQitemZ140205072881QQihZ004QQcategoryZ23790QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem I'm not familiar with that unit, so I can't recommend it. I can recommend the Peavey Feedback Ferret D because I use it and it works. wvuviv30 is correct, spend that money on mics first, but I whole-heartily disagree that a FBX will cause more problems. It will just mask the problem. Get the basics right first, then add a FBX unit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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