Question from a LOUD guitarist.

[xmlguy]

Have you ever seriously tried to get the tone you want without being loud? Ever try the THD Hot Plate? It can cut the volume on a tube amp without killing the overdrive tone. Have you tried all the amp sim boxes on the market? They are pretty damn good at replacing nearly any amp. Have you tried the Mesa Boogie Rectifier Recording PreAmp, or the Line 6 Green Box?

[The Chinese]

Have you ever seriously tried to get the tone you want without being loud? Ever try the THD Hot Plate? It can cut the volume on a tube amp without killing the overdrive tone. Have you tried all the amp sim boxes on the market? They are pretty damn good at replacing nearly any amp. Have you tried the Mesa Boogie Rectifier Recording PreAmp, or the Line 6 Green Box?

 

 

I have. The Recto Pre Blows. I owned one, and just never could get it to sound right, unles i plugged it into a poweramp.

 

The solution here is twofold:

 

A) Guitar Players, especially Metal Guys, Like the Low End that a 4x12 Pushes. So in order to satisfy both needs, I found that Lower wattage amps are best... Or even more cabinets. Get 16 Ohm Cabs, and Use 2, That will load the signal down, get the pushed tone, and reduce stage volume... on top of that, Use one of the Cabs as a sidefill aimed in at the band. Use Angled Cabs, so that you do not punish your audience.

 

A lot of that flies in the face of what Guitar players like... Straight cabs, 100 watters, etc et al. I know.

 

B) Get the side fill amps behind the vocal plane. So the Lead singer isn't getting any Guitar right in his head. That will help you and keep you happier.

 

Todd A.

[xmlguy]

I have. The Recto Pre Blows. I owned one, and just never could get it to sound right, unles i plugged it into a poweramp. The solution here is twofold: A) Guitar Players, especially Metal Guys, Like the Low End that a 4x12 Pushes. So in order to satisfy both needs, I found that Lower wattage amps are best... Or even more cabinets. Get 16 Ohm Cabs, and Use 2, That will load the signal down, get the pushed tone, and reduce stage volume... on top of that, Use one of the Cabs as a sidefill aimed in at the band. Use Angled Cabs, so that you do not punish your audience. A lot of that flies in the face of what Guitar players like... Straight cabs, 100 watters, etc et al. I know. B) Get the side fill amps behind the vocal plane. So the Lead singer isn't getting any Guitar right in his head. That will help you and keep you happier.

 

How can the Recto Pre blow if you got it to sound right? Did you try it with a THD Hot Plate? That's what the Hot Plate is for.

 

But in any case, you've obviously tried to get good tone at low volumes. So have I. I happen to like my little Peavey Bravo Tube front end using the effects out and bypassing the speaker entirely. It took me a lot of trial and error to get the tone I liked so I could record and use headphones instead of driving a loud amp. The Bravo is only 25W, so that is my personal confirmation that low wattage amp is a good idea. The guitarists I've met who only know how to get tone when playing loud seem to have just not made the effort. In my case, I couldn't find a practice spot where I could play loud, so necessity drove me to find a solution, just like you've done.

[whataracket]

Back to the OP's original question...

The OM7 is considered one of the best mics to use on loud stages where high gain before feedback is needed. You have to sing right on the mic, though. It's actually tough to properly stay on an OM7 if you also play guitar. The other Audix models like the OM5 and OM6 are a little more forgiving. I like some of the better Sennheiser models as well. I'm not particularly impressed with the tone of any of the Shure dynamics.

I would suggest trying out the various mics you are considering. You can try them out for tone at a store, but you'll have to try them in a live setting to see how much gbf you can achieve. Read reviews on prosoundweb.com.

[herbie d]

Have you ever seriously tried to get the tone you want without being loud? Ever try the THD Hot Plate?" It can cut the volume on a tube amp without killing the overdrive tone. Have you tried all the amp sim boxes on the market? They are pretty damn good at replacing nearly any amp. Have you tried the Mesa Boogie Rectifier Recording PreAmp, or the Line 6 Green Box?

 

 

This is kinda funny. I hear what your saying to me. What I'm trying to understand is why you think I have a problem.

Lets hit these.."Have you ever seriously tried to get the tone you want without being loud?" ah.. that would be on the small stages I was talking about where amp placement is not an option. You know, the part where I was saying it sounds like a transistor radio? "THD Hot Plate?" Got one sitting in the storage bld with the other stuff I don't ever use. I also at one time tried a replacement for the 12AX7's, that cut the overall volume of the amp, allowing me to turn up the amp, with less volume and push the power tubes.(sounded horrible) The sound I look for is the sound of "pushing" a single 12" speaker. That's why I mic the amp's speaker rather than using the line out on the back. On my effects board I have two Pre-amps, one is an over drive pre-amp, (a Keely modded, sparkle drive) the other is just a JFET clean boost that pushes the front of the amp a little for when I'm soloing clean. Gives it a little more color.

"Have you tried the Mesa Boogie Rectifier Recording PreAmp, or the Line 6 Green Box?" No I haven't tried the Boogie Recording pre-amp. I do however have a Boogie V-twin pre-amp. I used to use it with an old Fender amp I used that had no master volume. Sounded great on that amp, so,so, on the amp I'm using now-a-days. I like the two pedals I use now better. (that old fender was frigging loud) Line 6 Green Box? No never looked at one. Don't know what it is. Don't own anything Line 6.

"all the amp sim boxes on the market?" I did a string of larger venues a while back. Rented sound, as my stuff wasn't big enough. My guitar amp was a little small, so I had to run it in the monitors so I could be heard. The sound guy talked me into trying a few of the rack mounted processors, and dropping the amp since I was mainly coming through the monitors anyway. They had amp, cabinet, and speaker speaker simulators on em, Effects, one of them you could even add tube sag. They all sounded awesome during the sound checks, but with the band? They didn't have it. The sound Guy drug my amp back on stage, and I didn't even ask him to. I'm an old analog guy when it comes to guitar. That's what I know how to work.

I guess where I'm going, that I don't think your getting, is that I crank my amp, but I know what to do with it so I don't have a too loud stage volume. Your telling me things to correct a too loud stage volume. I think the guy who originally posted was having that problem, not me. If you saw my amp on a stage, it might be tucked behind one of the mains, might be behind me with the back facing the audience, some times I lay it on the floor next to my stage monitor, or you might not even see it. It'll be somewhere with a mic stuck in front of it. (except for maybe those real little places.) One of the arts of playing live music is learning how to use the equipment you have. I am very good at that. I've been doing it for a long time. I've been using this same amp and guitar for 30 years now. well maybe 29.

[agedhorse]

Now you guys know whay I play keys

[herbie d]

Now you guys know whay I play keys

Ha! Now, turn it down! (always wanted to say that)

[xmlguy]

I guess where I'm going, that I don't think your getting, is that I crank my amp, but I know what to do with it so I don't have a too loud stage volume. Your telling me things to correct a too loud stage volume. I think the guy who originally posted was having that problem, not me.

 

 

Uh, yeah, my comments weren't directed specifically to you then. I was extending the discussion for any guitarists who have a problem getting good tone without having a loud stage volume. Sounds like you've worked that out. Mostly I see this problem with young guitarists, however talented they may be, who have fallen for the whole Marshall stack concept without knowing that they're stage props.

[xmlguy]

Now you guys know whay I play keys

I'm a musician. I'm a keyboardist when I play keys. I'm a soundman when I play mixers. I'm a guitarist when I play guitar. And I don't know what the hell to call myself when I play the Kaossilator and DS-10, but I know I'm not a DJ because I write and play only my own stuff.

[banddad]

Your original question had some good reasons for getting your own mics that seem to have gotten downplayed. Mics can be considered part of one of your most important instruments - your voice. And they are personal - "cootie sharing" is best minimized.

If you can, try out a few of the good mics suggested, such as the OM-7, ND-767, Beta 58 noted above, and see what sounds best for YOUR voice, and your bandmates voices. These should all have good GBF, and other popular stage mics will as well. I work with a band of 6, and they use 3 different Shure vocal mics, each matched to their particular voices.

And good luck to you!

[tlbonehead]

This is kinda funny. I hear what your saying to me. What I'm trying to understand is why you think I have a problem. Lets hit these.."Have you ever seriously tried to get the tone you want without being loud?" ah.. that would be on the small stages I was talking about where amp placement is not an option. You know, the part where I was saying it sounds like a transistor radio? "THD Hot Plate?" Got one sitting in the storage bld with the other stuff I don't ever use. I also at one time tried a replacement for the 12AX7's, that cut the overall volume of the amp, allowing me to turn up the amp, with less volume and push the power tubes.(sounded horrible) .

Why on earth do you think a lower gain preamp could allow you to drive your power tubes harder at a lower volume?

[Mogwix]

NoVaTa2iSt, to answer your question; the OM7 would be and is currently my mic of choice given your situation. The only way you can possibly further this is with a headset mic.

 

The reason nobody's addressed your problem, is because the problem you are trying to address is the result of a much bigger (and more dangerous) problem. To provide an analogy, we're not trying to help you find the most effective way of committing suicide, we'd rather tell you that NOT killing yourself is a much better idea.

 

I play in a loud rock band, but our stage volume isn't necessarily an issue. I play a GK2001 into an SWR 610, guitarist plays a plexi (with a hotplate) through a 412. We point our amps cross-stage and only turn up as loud as we need to hear ourselves. Feedback has never been a problem for us in any venue, even though my singer has a habit of inadvertantly pointing the mic at the monitors.

 

Find a way to turn it down, you'll find that you'll solve a lot more problems than just feedback.

[DBR]

You guys have some great ideas I have never thought about. As a bass player, I always used some kind of crate to raise the gear off the ground so that the stage doesn't absorb and I never thought about cross staging the cabs. That is such a great idea. The next time my band gets together, I will try that. Kewl stuff. Thanks

[GTRMAN]

Huh... I'm thinking this was directed to me. I don't know about putting my amp on the ground, but I do put it on the floor. And yes your right, I can't hear with my Ass, but I can make sounds with it. "the louder you are, the worst it sounds"?? Obviously you don't understand guitar players.

 

 

I'm a guitar player and play in a hard rock band.. I use 112 combos exclusively one is 60 Watts the other is 30 Watts.. One is for gigging, one is for rehearsals.. NEITHER one ever gets turned up above 3 or 4 on the master volume.. Sure, I'm missing some of the low-end "punch", but you know what? That's what the kick drum and bass guitar are for.. And guess what? No-one in the crowd is gonna notice.. I play quieter to save my eardrums and for the "greater good" which is for my band to sound the best it can.

[KF650SB1000]

Huh... I'm thinking this was directed to me. I don't know about putting my amp on the ground, but I do put it on the floor. And yes your right, I can't hear with my Ass, but I can make sounds with it. "the louder you are, the worst it sounds"?? Obviously you don't understand guitar players. For the type of music I play, I have to push the amp to a certain point to get the type tone I'm looking for.

 

 

No it wasn't intended for you, it was intended for the guitarist who think their tone is at "11". At a certain point in volume the guitar tone turns to "mud" or a "wash" sound.

 

I will guarantee it... you will get an entirely different "tone" if you take your cab and place it on top of something so that the cab is pointed at your head (ears).

 

 

We have a few systems installed in a couple of venues that we support. The clubs range from 100 to 800 people.

We have had bands that come in with guitarist that won't turn the volume down to a workable level for the SE/HE. After the show we

[ckcondon]

I'm a guitar player and play in a hard rock band.. I use 112 combos exclusively one is 60 Watts the other is 30 Watts.. One is for gigging, one is for rehearsals.. NEITHER one ever gets turned up above 3 or 4 on the master volume.. Sure, I'm missing some of the low-end "punch", but you know what? That's what the kick drum and bass guitar are for.. And guess what? No-one in the crowd is gonna notice.. I play quieter to save my eardrums and for the "greater good" which is for my band to sound the best it can.

 

 

The voice of reason!

Most in the audience don't know the difference between "boutique tube sound" and modeled digital. Live music is "noisy" by nature and tone gets lost in the din.

I get that volume is part of making a tube amp sing, but at what cost to the FOH mix and your hearing? There's nothing I hate more than walking into a club and ending up in front of the "lazer beam" coming off the guitarists amp, passing through his knees and right into my brain!

To the OP, no one is trying to be sarcastic. You asked a bunch of pro sound guys a question to which you got an answer that you didn't like, but is correct. If you can't hear something on stage, 9 times out of 10 it's because someone needs to turn down. Equipment is not always the answer.

[herbie d]

Uh, yeah, my comments weren't directed specifically to you then. I was extending the discussion for any guitarists who have a problem getting good tone without having a loud stage volume. Sounds like you've worked that out. Mostly I see this problem with young guitarists, however talented they may be, who have fallen for the whole Marshall stack concept without knowing that they're stage props.

 

 

Uh? Probably my bad. I'm the paranoid guy, that has been blasted enough times over the years for stage volume by sound guys.

[Nxt Lvl]

A lot of good comments on this thread. I also play relatively loud guitar (although not metal) and just recently down-sized from a 4x10 Deville to a 1x12 Vox. It was the best thing I did. I was playing the Deville on volume 2 max, and it was still too loud.

I saw Rush last summer and noticed that Alex Lifeson has a wall of amps, but there was one mic on one cabinet. Geddy Lee has no amps on stage, and fills in the space with washing machines and chicken rotisseries or some other gimick. The stage volume was obviously low because they would talk to each other during songs.

[stevie j]

Mostly I see this problem with young guitarists, however talented they may be, who have fallen for the whole Marshall stack concept without knowing that they're stage props.

 

 

I remember going to my first proper concert when I was 15, it was the Darkness and there were about 10 full marshall stacks SR and 10 mesa stacks SL. I was right at the front row hanging on for dear life.

During the line check, all I heard was a wimpy guitar sound from SR and nothing from SL because I was at the other side of the stage. Then a hell of a lot of guitar came through the sidefills and monitors (not that I knew what sidefills were, they were just big speakers pointed in)

 

I was just starting to get into the live sound side of things and knew that the PA did all the work, but I wasn't sure to what extent.

 

Another gem is, all the Marshall stacks that Status Quo use have had their insides changed to Vox AC30's, or else they just mic an AC30 behind the wall of stacks. An engineer I work with told me this after his band supported them for a few nights on a tour.

[herbie d]

Why on earth do you think a lower gain preamp could allow you to drive your power tubes harder at a lower volume?

Ha, ha! your picking my stuff apart trying to bust my chops! He,he.
OK I'll play, but first understand, I'm a Guitar player/singer. I am not a sound, or electronics engineer.
So... looking at the panel on the front of my amp. It has two channels. A clean side and a dirty side. The clean side is wonderfully clean. To get a full range, crisp sound, the volume likes to be at at least 4. (clean channel has volume, bass, treble)
This amp however likes to sound real clean, or real dirty. It doesn't do an in between dirty very well. (this is IMO) thus I use the overdrive pedal on the clean side for that not too dirty sound, and a JFET just to boost a little for clean solo work.
On the dirty side I get a great distorted sound. (maybe not to a metal guy, but good for me) On the panel, the volume likes to be on at least 1, and the gain is usually at 9. This matches the clean/dirty side for, lead/rythm.(channel has volume, bass, treble, and gain. That gain does not affect the clean side) If I run the over drive pedal into the dirty side I get that, "hold a note and it builds into feed back thing". Kinda cool sometimes. That side doesn't like the JFET much. Kinda compresses it.
This amp is what everyone calls a hybrid amp. (most blues amp guru's turn up their nose as it's not all tube) The tube power section has 2-6L6's and the solid state pre-amp section, does however have one 12AX7 in it.
Not really knowing what I was doing, I started monkeying with different pre-amp tubes. The numbers I'm saying are what I "think" I remember, but my memory is not what it once was. The ones I tried were...5751 (gain 70) in place of a 12AX7 (gain 100). The volumes on the panel changed to meet the same volume off the speaker. To get the same volume The settings were more like 7, and 3. So in my mind, theoretically, I should have been able to put the volumes back to their original settings, thus lower volume, get the same sound. The problem however was, even though the dirty channel sounded about the same at the lower volume the clean side was no longer, bright and crisp. I was told this is because the sound I was after was from pushing the speaker more than anything else.
The other tubes I tried...12AT7 (gain 60) 12AU7 (gain 20) 12DW7 (gain 20). They all sounded like crap. I went back to the 12AX7. Now days I obsess with different brands of tubes. It amazes me how much different they sound from brand to brand. Actually at this moment I have a speaker obsession going on as well. Can't help it, I'm an obsseive cumpulsive type guy.

[herbie d]

The voice of reason!
Most in the audience don't know the difference between "boutique tube sound" and modeled digital. Live music is "noisy" by nature and tone gets lost in the din.
There's nothing I hate more than walking into a club and ending up in front of the "lazer beam" coming off the guitarists amp, passing through his knees and right into my brain!
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I love this thread! I'll try and leave it alone after this, I swear!
In defence of the OP, The fact that the audience doesn't know the difference between digital and analog/tube is not the only issue. If where your standing, the amp sounds like crap to you, your going to sound like crap. Crap sound sucks your soul. Lack of soul is evident to your audience just as much as,"too loud".
In your defence, I'm with ya about the,"Lazer Beam". I hate that too. So... if the guitar player points the speaker toward himself, he'll get the,"lazer beam", not you. Maybe then he'll try and do something with it rather than, "getting off", at the expense of the people around him.
The whole thing with the dummy cabinets seems kinda silly to me. I have enough problems lugging my Vintage wood crap sound system. Adding cabinets that don't do anything? I don't get it.

[stevie j]

There's nothing I hate more than walking into a club and ending up in front of the "lazer beam" coming off the guitarists amp, passing through his knees and right into my brain!

 

 

I know how you feel, the guitarist in a band I do regularly only uses a straight cab because an angled can is too trebly.

 

I tried explaining that the trebly fizz is what the audience is hearing but he's too stubborn

[xmlguy]

I really like using an amp stand angled upwards and in front of me. I can run a much lower volume and still get nice sustaining feedback.

[herbie d]

I really like using an amp stand angled upwards and in front of me. I can run a much lower volume and still get nice sustaining feedback.

 

Darn! I said I was going to quit. Its funny you mention the amp stand. I used one for a while, then noticed it seemed to me that some of the bottom-end dropped off the amp when I took it off the floor. When I put mine on the floor in front, (next to my monitor) I still set it on the floor but use those fender style legs on the side of the cabinet to cock it back. Does the stand seem to change your tone? Do you use an open back cabinet?

[xmlguy]

I do use an open back cabinet, but I keep the volume very low, just enough to get the feedback I need. For tone I use the tube front end, the effects loop, amp modelling, effects, and go direct to the mixer. I don't use the speaker for tone, just feedback sustain. But I should mention that I only play guitar for recording my own tracks, not for live gigs any more, so your mileage may vary. I've moved to keys/synths and vocals for quite awhile now.