Question from a LOUD guitarist.

[zax2000]

Thanks for all the assumptions as to my attitude, it was a question asked in respect to soundmen, but I'll take what I thought a legitimate question elsewhere.

 

It's a forum so expect to get attitude from some know-it-alls ... I'm good at what I do but lack knowledge (not ashamed to say unlike some) of the diverse pros and cons of the multitude of vocal mics available that may help your situation. Personally, I would try the OM5 or OM7 (preferred but alot more $$$) as either would be a good mic .... yes, I have actually used both and I've worked with many metal bands and have one of the best reputations locally with the metal/rock crowd. The biggest drawback to the OM7 for vocals is that you need good technique as it has an extremely tight pickup pattern and this will be even more critical if it remains stationary on a stand. If it were to remain on a stand I would lean towards an OM5.

[herbie d]

Is turning your amp down really such a problem? Why are you getting so upset?
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Ha,ha. I'm not upset. I'm a pretty laid back guy. On days I feel like I'm not getting a great sound outta my rig, I still get a good sound. I'm just a little obsessive compulsive over my guitar rig, I'll admit it.
Whats frustrating is in these posts, (it could even be that because of my inexperience in posting, the comments are not even directed at me) is some of these guys keep on me about turning down, and I don't have a stage volume problem. (as a matter of fact the drummer I travel with usually has some of my guitar in his monitor mix) Like I was saying near the beginning of this thread, my amp is loud, but through placing it behind the mains stack pointing at only me, or putting it on the floor angled up next to my monitor, or what ever I do with it, I can overcome a stage volume issue. The amp is usually miced so it really doesn't matter where its sitting. I like the sound of that amp, and for me it needs to be at a particular volume to sound good. If the volume is too much for the stage, I learned early on how to get around it. In some cases I have no choice but to turn it down, then I have to deal with that. But being arrogant, and setting a volume, then expect everyone to deal with it? Not my style.
The ranting I did about this gig I'm doing now? Shouldn't have brought it up. Sorry. Its really a gig I should never have agreed to. I'm really out of the water on this one. The guy who booked it for me has in the past helped me fill out my calender when I couldn't, so I'm trying my best. Don't want to bite a hand that helps feed me. I'm using a sound man with his system, that I paid a flat fee to, to cover me for three months. He's sitting at home getting paid, I'm playing in a place using an arch top acoustic and no amp, or PA, and I can't sing, reading posts on my computer, in my room after the gigs, listening to guys go on about turning it down. Friday this gig will be over, then its back to the Norm.

[Mogwix]

 

Like I was saying near the beginning of this thread, my amp is loud, but through placing it behind the mains stack pointing at only me, or putting it on the floor angled up next to my monitor, or what ever I do with it, I can overcome a stage volume issue. The amp is usually miced so it really doesn't matter where its sitting. I like the sound of that amp, and for me it needs to be at a particular volume to sound good. If the volume is too much for the stage, I learned early on how to get around it. In some cases I have no choice but to turn it down, then I have to deal with that. But being arrogant, and setting a volume, then expect everyone to deal with it? Not my style.

 

See? Everyone's going at the same point. This is what I thought from the start, but everything sort of split.. for some reason.

[Bryan316]

I've found that if everyone dials in their amp volume to the drummer's volume, it's usually enough. It gets an even stage volume where everyone in the band can hear themselves AND each other clearly enough.

 

Also, point cabs directly at your ears, as opposed to a 412 cab at knee height, drastically helps. I know plenty of guitarists that have straight 412 cabs, and always complain. I tell em, "Get a slant cab so the top two drivers are aimed at your head" they look at me stunned as if to say, "That's why they do that?" My brutha's Mesa classic slant is the easiest cabinet to hear, anywhere on stage.

 

I used to hate my 410 bass cabinet, cuz I heard no detail in my playing. Now with my 212 on the bottom and 210 on top at about shoulder level, I hear every nuance of my playing, and LOVE IT. I still get my pants-shaking rumble, but not nearly as loud.

 

I got my other guitarist to get an amp stand that's angled, to get his 212 combo amp up higher and pointing at his head. Now we just need some Beam Blockers to cut the shrill harshness and he'll be happy as a pig in Paris Hilton's acting skills.

[tlbonehead]

I've found that if everyone dials in their amp volume to the drummer's volume, it's usually enough. It gets an even stage volume where everyone in the band can hear themselves AND each other clearly enough. Also, point cabs directly at your ears, as opposed to a 412 cab at knee height, drastically helps. I know plenty of guitarists that have straight 412 cabs, and always complain. I tell em, "Get a slant cab so the top two drivers are aimed at your head" they look at me stunned as if to say, "That's why they do that?" My brutha's Mesa classic slant is the easiest cabinet to hear, anywhere on stage. I used to hate my 410 bass cabinet, cuz I heard no detail in my playing. Now with my 212 on the bottom and 210 on top at about shoulder level, I hear every nuance of my playing, and LOVE IT. I still get my pants-shaking rumble, but not nearly as loud. I got my other guitarist to get an amp stand that's angled, to get his 212 combo amp up higher and pointing at his head. Now we just need some Beam Blockers to cut the shrill harshness and he'll be happy as a pig in Paris Hilton's acting skills.

Even a slant cab setting on the stage floor is going to be blasting too low to really hear unless you have a fairly deep stage and use the depth to decrease the angle. I like straight cabs better, but either way, I always have my cab up in the air about 2'. If I use a slant I usually tip it on its side for better spread.

[herbie d]

I love the assumptions in some of the posts here (by both guitarists and sound engineers) that a combo is quiet and a stack is loud. I don't play loud at all (no need - I run with IEMs anyway) but my sound comes from the gear I use. Not at a high volume at all (I run a valve head at 60w with the master volume usually around 2, plus a solid-state stereo power amp for my wet signal - I run W/D/W with 2 2x12 and 2 4x12 cabs) - from 10 feet away you could probably hold a conversation in front of it. But it's the tone of the rig that makes the difference to the way that I play. I also usually position the rig sideways-on at the side of the stage. If I could get my sound with a single 12" speaker cab, that'd be cool, but I can't. It's not about metal vs rock vs country vs whatever either - John Petrucci's rig is pretty much silent, but Steve Howe is the single loudest guitarist I've heard in my life!

 

 

Yea this is so true. I think maybe the combo/open back amps might even be a little louder. And it doesn't matter what kind of music, every one's looking for what sounds right to him. I played in a band for quite a while that had two guitar players (I was one) The other played through a head and 4x12 cabinet, and he had an Awesome Sound! I tried playing through his rig a few times and it sounded nothing the same when I played through it as when he played through it. Different guitar, different playing technique? Who knows.

I have an old Band Master cabinet. (2-12 closed back) I've used it a few times with my combo and it sounds good. I think its because of using both the combo speaker and the closed back. I hate lugging it around though.

Whats funny and shows how times change... That's all I have left from the rig I used in the 60"s. It was two Fender Twins on top of two of those bandmasters. That rig sounded great. but very few peps miced the guitar amp back then. That was loud.

I've often wondered about an open back ext cabinet, shaped like my floor monitor. I wonder if someone already makes one of those?

[herbie d]

OK.. The gig I was talking about in this thread is over, yea!. Funny, I got paid and the owner wanted me to sit down and look at his calender. I squirmed in my chair and said he would need to talk to the guy who booked it for us, as I didn't want to upset anyone.
Wow, I'll be gone in the morning. The sound guy I'm using, tells me he's already set-up for our next one. Rooms about 50X80 and will be filled with crazy college kids.

[Spacehog26]

Even a slant cab setting on the stage floor is going to be blasting too low to really hear unless you have a fairly deep stage and use the depth to decrease the angle. I like straight cabs better, but either way, I always have my cab up in the air about 2'. If I use a slant I usually tip it on its side for better spread.

 

 

Yep, that's why I sit my 4x12 slant cabs on top of my 2x12s, which just carry the effected signal.

[BigMac5]

Even a slant cab setting on the stage floor is going to be blasting too low to really hear unless you have a fairly deep stage and use the depth to decrease the angle. I like straight cabs better, but either way, I always have my cab up in the air about 2'. If I use a slant I usually tip it on its side for better spread.

I know a guy who plays a full stack just so he can raise the top cab and hear better, and the visual of a full stack on stage. The cabs are stereo cabs, he doesn't hook up the bottom cab and only hooks up one side of the top cab.

[The Real MC]

I know a guy who plays a full stack just so he can raise the top cab and hear better, and the visual of a full stack on stage. The cabs are stereo cabs, he doesn't hook up the bottom cab and only hooks up one side of the top cab.

 

 

That's a pretty expensive cabinet stand.

[Gregidon]

That's a pretty expensive cabinet stand.

It's all about appearances...

[herbie d]

Oh, and with regards to keeping the low end by cranking an amp+4x12. Any decent FOH engineer will be cutting this out on the EQ anyway!
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I was thinking about this, and had to come back and post.
When I use a sound man, I always look for them to reproduce the sound of my band coming off the stage, out of the Mains. (will be cutting this out on the EQ anyway) When they start Altering the sound of the Band... that's not good. Its not up to the sound man to decide, the Bass player needs more treble or bass. Same with a guitar.
"Good sound men" I've used in the past, I'll notice walking around the room, to check the sounds at various parts of the room, and they usually walk up behind the mains to hear the band without the mains. I hate seeing a sound man that never comes from behind the mixer during the night.
This doesn't count volume. . That's a whole different ball game.
Countless times I've heard a good Band playing a small venue, without micing anything other tha vocals and they sounded Awesome, Then heard the same band in a larger venue, with everything miced, and sounding terrible. The sound man was mixing them the way he thought they sounded right, rather than listening to what the band sounded like in the first place.
If the system sounds bad out front because the sound man is trying to keep the system's volume up, to match the guitar, shoot the guitar player. If your standing on the side of the stage behind the mains, and the guitar sounds Fat, but in front of the mains, sounds like a tin can, shoot the sound man.

[Rick6]

Having developed tinnitus about a year ago I'll second the comments about it. You don't want it. It's unpleasant -- constantly - and there's no cure. And, if you play real loud, you're probably going to get it.

So, if you're worried about mic diaphragms or whatever, imagine what's happening to your ears.

I have the high end ear plugs. I don't enjoy wearing them when I play. So, I say attack the problem. Find a way to get your sound to the audience at a modest stage volume.

[zax2000]

When I use a sound man, I always look for them to reproduce the sound of my band coming off the stage, out of the Mains. (will be cutting this out on the EQ anyway) When they start Altering the sound of the Band... that's not good. Its not up to the sound man to decide, the Bass player needs more treble or bass. Same with a guitar. "Good sound men" I've used in the past, I'll notice walking around the room, to check the sounds at various parts of the room, and they usually walk up behind the mains to hear the band without the mains. I hate seeing a sound man that never comes from behind the mixer during the night. This doesn't count volume. . That's a whole different ball game. Countless times I've heard a good Band playing a small venue, without micing anything other tha vocals and they sounded Awesome, Then heard the same band in a larger venue, with everything miced, and sounding terrible. The sound man was mixing them the way he thought they sounded right, rather than listening to what the band sounded like in the first place. If the system sounds bad out front because the sound man is trying to keep the system's volume up, to match the guitar, shoot the guitar player. If your standing on the side of the stage behind the mains, and the guitar sounds Fat, but in front of the mains, sounds like a tin can, shoot the sound man.

 

 

I have been a bassist for a long time, but I know the difference between a good sounding guitar sound and a not so good one. Listening to the same amp everyday I think some guitar players get accustomed to their amp .... I hear 7 or 8 different ones every gig. It has been my experience that more often than not that a guitar player that is too loud or has a terrible sound is playing a rig they had to buy as opposed to a rig they wanted to buy. Multipy this by 2 or in one case 3 guitar players in a band and sometimes it all just doesn't mix well. Most good cabs/amps I've mic'd I've had no problem with regardless of the numbers of cabs used unless they had one of these next issues. Sure I EQ here and there because I've seen too many amps with the low end cranked (and highs -10) to get more "crunch" (hmmmm) in their tone .... also excessive effects (just recently) ... I isolated that guitar and listened over my phones and it sounded like crap. The effects even changed the volume so dramatically I had to chase the fader often and almost threw a comp on it after a while.

 

Here's the thing ... I do what I can to get the best sound from the instruments to the audience because if it sounds like crap I get blamed more often than not so I do what I must to make it sound good. If I EQ a guitar or bass it's because A) the sound is waaaay unbalanced from the rig or B) to equalize the individual sound in my system since every room is different and every PA is different. If my mic that I use on a guitar player's cab cost more than the amp running it then I'd love him to complain about his signature "tone" out front .... hasn't happened yet ....

[agedhorse]

herbie... maybe at the level you play at, the sound gus is just your bitch but as you move up the food chain the good sound guys are every bit a part of this decision making process and in most cases are entirely responsible for what they do at FOH.

When I am mixing, generally I am given free reign over doing what's necessary to sound good in the house. If that means cutting some low end from the guitar then great. My vantage point is such that I hear what the audience hears in the house and it's something that the players on stage have no idea of.

I used to mix over 100 touring shows a year (for almost 30 years) in venues of around 1000 seats and I get to hear a lot of guitars, some very good and some very bad. My perspective lets me getthe most out of a band's sound with the band not neding to worry about anything but showing up on time and playing well. I still mix maybe 50 shows a year, but have cut back due to other job duties.

[herbie d]

herbie... maybe at the level you play at, the sound gus is just your bitch but as you move up the food chain the good sound guys are every bit a part of this decision making process and in most cases are entirely responsible for what they do at FOH. When I am mixing, generally I am given free reign over doing what's necessary to sound good in the house. If that means cutting some low end from the guitar then great. My vantage point is such that I hear what the audience hears in the house and it's something that the players on stage have no idea of. I used to mix over 100 touring shows a year (for almost 30 years) in venues of around 1000 seats and I get to hear a lot of guitars, some very good and some very bad. My perspective lets me getthe most out of a band's sound with the band not neding to worry about anything but showing up on time and playing well. I still mix maybe 50 shows a year, but have cut back due to other job duties.

 

 

At the level I play at? I'm what I always called in the past, "a has been". I've been playing a long time, and have been to what I "think" your calling the, "top of the food chain". What I "don't" do that a lot of my, "Old has been Friends" do, is sell myself for what I once was, and unlike some of my,"has been friends", I think I'm better now than I was then, and am happy to finish out my days in a, "Bar Band".

Yes I have done gigs in the past under the thumb of Sound engineers employed by the house, the promoter, or Studio. Some were Very Good, some not, the bottom line... sound was not supplied by me. I was just a guitar player, or one of the singers. I don't think a lot of the Peps posting here are at that level. Could be wrong though.

I still do some of the Blues Festivals, sometimes someone will recognise me from the past, but usually its from what I do these days, and I'm happier with that. I usually just get to play, and never even consider the sound system. Its taken care of.

In the Bar Band World. I usually employ the sound man, although some of the Clubs do have a house system and a person to run it. My favorite situation is, a 3 pc band, smaller venue, and I can mix on stage. But.... I generally have to carry a sound man. I like to be able to give the person running sound for me "Full Reign" as you put it. But before I can do that I have to know I can trust what that person does. I have a Product, I'm selling, if the sound man can "work with",(key phrase) the equipment at hand, the musicians at hand, and me, to put the best possible product we can out there, without a lot of attitude. I'll show trust. If not, I'll get another sound man. If I have a hard time finding one, I'll mix on stage till I do find one. After the Trailers loaded, the Ego's are taken care of, that last word is said, and the bar's register is tallied and closed... I'm the Guy sitting in the club owners office getting paid and glancing at the up-coming schedule.

[herbie d]

I came back to check this post and read it over. Something that caught my eye, and what I have tried to understand for years is when someone tells me of their experience in terms of years.
I've (me) been playing the guitar for 50 years, played professionally on and off for 40. That's a long time. When a person tells me, "I have 20 years experience", I always wonder what that means. Does it mean, what he learned in one year, he re-learned nineteen times... or does he have 20 consecutive years of learning, where he learned something more in each of those years?

If I've been playing the guitar for 50 years, how can another guitar player, who has only played for 3 years smoke me? It happens. Not just in guitar playing, but most anything, driving, talking, sound. Is it, Talent? Dedication? If this 3 year guitar veteran plays for another 12 years, will he be 5 times better than he is now? Or just a little better? No one can say. If I ask him at that point, are you a good guitar player and he says, "I've been playing for 15years", what should this mean to me? The same as, "I've been playing for 50 years", means. Not much.

My Daddy (rest his soul) taught me two things I carry with me to this day. I look at myself with these things and the people I'm in contact with every day. "If you talk to an Idiot, listen to what he says. He might know one thing you don't". The other...I changed my mind and I won't go into as it doesn't fit this situation. Maybe another time.

This all sound like the beginnings of a great Blues tune... I should take notes.

[zax2000]

That's why I don't listen to the "years of experience" talk ... it's for resumes. One sound guy here is quick to boast his 30+ years and completely bombed while trying to mix a big band here once, one that I think I have mixed better than anyone so far (7 members - 2 axes, bass, drums, 3 vox, percussionists, samples). Mix it right and they sound great, very talented IMO ... last show a band's manager got my info to contact me after hearing me mix his band, that was after he asked about my experience ... I told him I'm just a rookie, maybe 2 years at best under my belt. I think most round up, I let my sound do my bragging ...