Members Zeromus-X Posted June 12, 2009 Members Share Posted June 12, 2009 So, just to summarize -- you were doing an outdoor gig with Steelsound and Madison speakers, and Behringer and Nady poweramps, and you're surprised that things went wrong? Do you actually charge for your system, or was this a freebie? And if you do charge, mind if I ask how much? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 12, 2009 Remember, that's a thermal rating, and subs need to consider excursion as well as heat. And I'm telling you this because even if it was only the LPF coil that burned, you really should not be driving a 15" sub with bargain speakers at 500w or more. Try 300w to be safe. It won't make much difference in output.As far as excursion these guys are such small cabs that the cab size alone does quite a bit to limit excursion. The ports are more for cooling - if they were sealed up they probably would work almost as well response and excursion wise . I was HPF'd at 45hz anyways. BTW I do run my subs indoors at 300wrms in stereo off an RMX1450 clone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted June 12, 2009 CMS Author Share Posted June 12, 2009 I was HPF'd at 45hz anyways. BTW I do run my subs indoors at 300wrms in stereo off an RMX1450 clone. That's the best bet outside too. If you need more output, you need more rig. Adding power typically only encourages failures, especially outdoors, where you're much more likely to keep moving the faders towards "blow". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 12, 2009 Do you actually charge for your system, or was this a freebie? And if you do charge, mind if I ask how much?Well, I usually use a combination of my system and whatever a band has if needed. My "goal" was to have a rig that fits in a Geo Metro that I can set up myself and can do 200+ people. At this point I'm most interested in a BE gig where I get an even share of the take. I'm semi-retired and just looking for pocket money and certainly not to compete with you $500+ guys. Wish I could figure out how to take good photos of my "rig" packed in the Geo - right now I have in there four power amps w/cases, a Yamaha 01V96 sized mixer w/case, 6 space FOH rack, 100' 16x4 snake, two B412DSP mains, two subs, speaker + mic stands, a 2x4 foot table, 3+ gym bags full of cables + adapters + mics + DI's etc . BTW the Behringer mains sounded as good or better than the Mackie SA1521z we also used (needed 180 degree coverage). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 12, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 12, 2009 That's the best bet outside too. If you need more output, you need more rig. Adding power typically only encourages failures, especially outdoors, where you're much more likely to keep moving the faders towards "blow".I'm always cognizant of where the signal levels are and they are significantly louder bridged than in stereo. As I had the one hold together at 1000w I'm sure I can get the rest to also. I certainly wouldn't normally power them past 700w and would have cut that down to AgedHorse's 600w per driver recommendation if I could have but just ain't that worried about it. I actually have a Behringer DCX2496 "DriveRack clone" waiting to be installed and I'll set that up to limit the subs to 400wrms each as that is what Goldwood rates their drivers at . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jwlussow Posted June 12, 2009 Members Share Posted June 12, 2009 As in "Wow, I didn't know they made RMX1450 clones - where can I buy some?" or "Wow, I wouldn't anchor a sunken rowboat with one of those POS amps!" ? Good answer....I'll shut up now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted June 12, 2009 Members Share Posted June 12, 2009 If you are running sound for bands and charging them for it you need to buy a real PA and something to haul it with. IMO any band worth a {censored} would not hire someone with crap gear unless you are the only game in town. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members lifeloverwg Posted June 12, 2009 Members Share Posted June 12, 2009 Well, I usually use a combination of my system and whatever a band has if needed. My "goal" was to have a rig that fits in a Geo Metro that I can set up myself and can do 200+ people. At this point I'm most interested in a BE gig where I get an even share of the take. I'm semi-retired and just looking for pocket money and certainly not to compete with you $500+ guys. Wish I could figure out how to take good photos of my "rig" packed in the Geo - right now I have in there four power amps w/cases, a Yamaha 01V96 sized mixer w/case, 6 space FOH rack, 100' 16x4 snake, two B412DSP mains, two subs, speaker + mic stands, a 2x4 foot table, 3+ gym bags full of cables + adapters + mics + DI's etc . BTW the Behringer mains sounded as good or better than the Mackie SA1521z we also used (needed 180 degree coverage). I'm not sure that's a realistic goal. Of course it depends on the definition of "do 200 people". After all, do you just want to be done, or do you want to be done right. Winston Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members bassred Posted June 13, 2009 Members Share Posted June 13, 2009 With the clip limiters on I doubt they were getting more than a couple hundred real watts.The cabs certainly were a bit more than that. The $100 Technical Pro driver that hung in there was getting fed 1000wrms and the clip limiter was most definitely gtting a work out . The Madison drivers are supposedly made in Taiwan by Goldwood and go for about $150. They certainly make nice stuff and charge you plenty for it.Yes, the peaks were 1000+ watts I'm sure - but why do you say that is a characteristic of a bridged amp? Same thing happens in stereo I'm sure. And while I might push 3db into the limiters if I need to I most definitely don't clip anything in the signal chain (not that the subs care a whole lot). In any case while I haven't got into them all I'm 90% sure none of the drivers failed and won't hesitate to "do it again" once they are wired properly. If I do find a burned up driver I'll just put in something better like one of them Technical Pro $100 ones or more likely one from our friends at Audiopile . The difference in power ratio's when you slam that limiter and peak the rig in bridged mode is what I mean by the characteristics of a bridged amp. If the drivers are 'rated' at 700 watts, we'll say that the actual RMS rating is around 350 (my opinion) and then you have any constant signal that is pushing the limiter, it is a recipe for a dead speaker. peak ratings are usually what the driver can handle for very, very short bursts, and any kind of constant signal will certainly cause damage/failure. Hell, maybe the crossover coil saved your driver, wouldn't that be amazing. If it was capable of burning up from too much power before the driver, it may have actually helped. So, you want to drive a Metro to a sound gig that you are supplying the gear... the BOSE P.O.S, er P.A.S system might be more your speed. It's self-powered, so you can't toss too much power into it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 13, 2009 I'm not sure that's a realistic goal. Of course it depends on the definition of "do 200 people". After all, do you just want to be done, or do you want to be done right . With 1200wrms powered mains and 1400wrms to the subs I'm about there now. I also have an RMX2450 clone amp (EP2500) to swap in if I buy a pair of Danley TH-Minis which are only slightly larger than what I have now and most definitely pro-grade and about 3db more efficient . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 13, 2009 If the drivers are 'rated' at 700 watts, we'll say that the actual RMS rating is around 350 (my opinion) and then you have any constant signal that is pushing the limiter, it is a recipe for a dead speaker.Don't know why yous guys can't believe the Chinese can build 500wrms 1000wpeak drivers? Ain't exactly rocket science, USA companies are building them with the same 4 inch diameter voice coils rated at twice that ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 13, 2009 Members Share Posted June 13, 2009 With 1200wrms powered mains and 1400wrms to the subs I'm about there now. I also have an RMX2450 clone amp (EP2500) to swap in if I buy a pair of Danley TH-Minis which are only slightly larger than what I have now and most definitely pro-grade and about 3db more efficient . Well you were just about there until your unfortunate incident... You need to learn a little bit more about how speaker porting and power handling really works, especially about the mechanical limitations you undoubtedly encountered. Hint... look at the peak excursion at 700 watts RMS at say 35Hz and see what happened to your poor drivers.There's no way I would expect your budget drivers to be rated the same way as a higher quality (and priced) driver. They just aren't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 13, 2009 Members Share Posted June 13, 2009 Don't know why yous guys can't believe the Chinese can build 500wrms 1000wpeak drivers? Ain't exactly rocket science, USA companies are building them with the same 4 inch diameter voice coils rated at twice that ! Not for the price you paid for them, no. Yes, they are capable... absolutely. Is that what you bought? Unlikely.You sure it wasn't 250 watts RMS, 500 watts program, 1000 watts peak? Maybe something got mixed up in the translation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members drumstix Posted June 13, 2009 Members Share Posted June 13, 2009 Well RR, I must say you have handled the fire pretty good, most would have crumbled long ago! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 13, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 13, 2009 look at the peak excursion at 700 watts RMS at say 35Hz and see what happened to your poor drivers.Beside the drivers not being the problem (did you read this thread?) "BoxPlot" shows I'm right at xmax (not even xmech!) at 35hz at 700 watts - plus if you all had read the thread you'd have seen I'm HPF'd at 45hz plus wasn't feeding anything below that anyways. I've got a couple cracked crossover circuit boards to send you if you can't believe what you haven't seen with your own eyes . Funny thing is the crossover was still in the box that kept working but the owner of those subs said the "new" driver was noticeably less efficient than the other so I guess it wasn't hammered on as much.EDIT> Oops, just looked at my drivers and they are the 1000wrms Executioner X15's - thought they were heavier than they should be . The drivers weigh more than the cabs ! BTW the second crossover coil was toast (winding gauge too small for sure!) and the other had a wiring failure at a splice I half-assed once . While my subs only had single coils the Madison 18 cabs had second order crossovers and the one that failed was a circuit board crack. My crossover circuit boards were both cracked at the mountings but that wasn't the failure. Anyways soon to be "better, stronger, faster" . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted June 14, 2009 Members Share Posted June 14, 2009 I don't believe it for a moment. No way that driver will hold up to 1000 watts RMS for more than a very short time and it will tear itself to shreads in the process. If it was 92-93dB/1W/1M than more likely with a high resonant freq. and lots of extra coil mass. By any chance did you configure the box for 2 drivers and enter 1000 watts for the box power? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members frankiefeedback Posted June 14, 2009 Members Share Posted June 14, 2009 See what you come up with putting Eminence Omega Pro spec and the subs specs into your software. 700w per speaker from your amp with the 45hz HP may work. I've been running the snot out of a pair of EAW 118s with a bridged RMX1450. (I've hear from a good source that the EAW's are loaded with Omega Pros) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 14, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 14, 2009 If it was 92-93dB/1W/1M than more likely with a high resonant freq. and lots of extra coil mass. By any chance did you configure the box for 2 drivers and enter 1000 watts for the box power?Nope, that is for a 2.25cuft box tuned to fs with one driver, specs as shown. Feel free to enter it into boxplot yourself . Also interesting is if you block the ports the speaker takes a minimum of 1200w to reach xmax (peak excursion per watt at ~58hz) . As for efficiency, the 98db/w is believable to me - I got to compare a Madison Executioner to that Technical Pro driver again tonight, definitely 6+dB more efficient but the fs of the Technical Pro is lower and it did hold up to 1000w of hard limited power as the lone survivor of four last Wednesday so I'll forgive it's mediocre efficiency . The four drivers outside driven with 700w each were plenty loud enough to keep up with the Mackie SA1521z tops until the wiring/crossover popped. BTW the owner didn't believe me that his crossover repair won't hold up but it only lasted half the night tonight at 300w (RMX1450 in stereo, one sub per channel) . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted June 14, 2009 Author Members Share Posted June 14, 2009 See what you come up with putting Eminence Omega Pro spec and the subs specs into your software. 700w per speaker from your amp with the 45hz HP may work. I've been running the snot out of a pair of EAW 118s with a bridged RMX1450. (I've hear from a good source that the EAW's are loaded with Omega Pros) I was thinkin' Eminence 4015F's if I had to reload the boxes but I'll have to give those you mentioned a simulation in the box also.. The 4015LF look much flatter in this box than the Madison's and have believable power specs . Unfortunately(?) it does look like the drivers I have now will outlive me . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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