Members death metal jim Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I have gotten to the point that I need to start using contracts . I ran sound last weekend . The promoter kept trying to add things to the gig for the same price but acted like he told me about every thing. He said 4 piece band/ it was an 8 piece. After we did a sound check we left and got back a little before the show was to start . Then out of nowhere he has 2 rap acts to open the show.And they are singing over there own cds( with out even removing there prerecorded vocals). .He had me till 10pm. I talked with the banquet manager of the hotel and he said that he only had the room till 10. He whined ,cried and acted confused. So we finally both agreed to 11. At 10:40 the promoter asked me if he paid me another $100. would I let it run till 11:45. I said OK He comes back with $50. And acts like he gave one of the people helping me the other $50. I ask him who he gave it to, then he tells me it was the banquet manager. I inform him that guy is not with me .So he asked me if I can take it to 11:30 for that price. I told him to ad another $20 to it . But then it it runs to 12:10.(I new a few of the people that paid to get in and the price of the tickets was a lot for them to come up with.)I would have shut it down at 11:30 but everyone there was having a good time. So what I'm asking is what should I put in a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Coaster Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 i hate getting treated like that. i can usually smell them while on the phone and avoid them altogether. charge yourself right out of that market and stick to your guns, because if these people feel they can treat you like that they will with or without a contract. i used to work with a couple of assholes for a few years so i know what its like, i kept standing firm and when they figured out they couldnt treat me like crap they found someone else to be their bitch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members allexcosta Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 Yeah, make them sign a contract and ask them to be realistic with time, leave home with 50% of total payment in your account, start setting up after you have the rest in cash, so you are paid in full before any gear leaves your truck or trailer. Once it's time to leave, let them know that you'll be turning everything off in a few minutes, after that you can discuss any extra time for extra cash. If cash doesn't appear quickly, turn everything off and leave. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I'm in a unique position most ofthe time now, my fees are paid by the venue contract and there's an hourly after the contracted time ends. It's pretty steep too. All fees are guaranteed by the ticket escrow account, the promoter doesn't get his money from ticket sales until the venue settles out with the promoter. This really keeps promoters honest even if they don't want to be. It also eliminates about 80% of this trick. It's a tough call in the other instances... you need to weigh the potential for bigger problems that may happen if you pull the plug. Hoe can you tell a promoter is not telling the truth? His lips are moving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members allexcosta Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 It's a tough call in the other instances... you need to weigh the potential for bigger problems that may happen if you pull the plug. True! We used to carry 2 of these guys to every gig back in Brazil. Can't afford them in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted October 8, 2009 Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I can understand your frustration, I have had guys pull the stuff with me as well. I have also had guys for some reason insist that I get paid my last 1/2 at the start of the show, and I HAVE sat there waiting to be paid while someone wants to talk over the mic or something. It can be hard, but remember, these guys ultimately profit off of makeing you feel uncomforatble. If they can make you feel like you owe them something, or if you misunderstood something, or any one of another things; they can make money off it. Once you realise this, it becomes easier to understand their point of view, and negotiate. For example- you want the stuff to run for an extra hour? - cool .. 1000 people - .. they each buy a 5$ drink - 5000$ ... I would as for like 1/4 of that. At that point He needs you , not the other way around. You may say, "I was being a nice guy" , "doing him a favor" ...right, beacuse he has done you so many favors... Specifically about contracts though. You ahve to ask what value this adds to the relationship. They can be usefull, and they can also be useless. I think the true value of a contract is not in the fact that it spells out the terms of teh engagement, but rather that it presents an attitude. Contract = serious bussiness. These alone means you are much less likely to get screewed over or something. keep in mind that the only way to enfoce a contract is ot take them to court, and this can be a hassle - I sugest you do not do it your self, hire a collections agency to do it for you, and it is very little work on your part and the party woeing the money usally ends up paying their fee anyway.(at least in canada). I just wanted to summerse by saying, What do you need to accompish, and is a contract the right tool for what you want to do? Kev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members death metal jim Posted October 8, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 8, 2009 I can understand your frustration, I have had guys pull the stuff with me as well.I have also had guys for some reason insist that I get paid my last 1/2 at the start of the show, and I HAVE sat there waiting to be paid while someone wants to talk over the mic or something. It can be hard, but remember, these guys ultimately profit off of makeing you feel uncomforatble. If they can make you feel like you owe them something, or if you misunderstood something, or any one of another things; they can make money off it.Once you realise this, it becomes easier to understand their point of view, and negotiate. For example- you want the stuff to run for an extra hour? - cool .. 1000 people - .. they each buy a 5$ drink - 5000$ ... I would as for like 1/4 of that. At that point He needs you , not the other way around. You may say, "I was being a nice guy" , "doing him a favor" ...right, beacuse he has done you so many favors...Specifically about contracts though. You ahve to ask what value this adds to the relationship. They can be usefull, and they can also be useless. I think the true value of a contract is not in the fact that it spells out the terms of teh engagement, but rather that it presents an attitude. Contract = serious bussiness. These alone means you are much less likely to get screewed over or something. keep in mind that the only way to enfoce a contract is ot take them to court, and this can be a hassle - I sugest you do not do it your self, hire a collections agency to do it for you, and it is very little work on your part and the party woeing the money usally ends up paying their fee anyway.(at least in canada).I just wanted to summerse by saying, What do you need to accompish, and is a contract the right tool for what you want to do?Kev. what I want a contract for ,is when the promoter say the deal was one thing I can pull out the contract that has every thing we agreed to singed by both party's Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 what I want a contract for ,is when the promoter say the deal was one thing I can pull out the contract that has every thing we agreed to singed by both party's I suspect the promoter you were dealing with who's the impetus for your development of a service contract... it's doubtful that type of promoter would sign a contract of any substance. As soon as you laid it on him, he'd be looking for a different service provider. Which is a point to consider when drawing up a service contract... as a service contract can work like a screen mesh classifier, being that selecting top and bottom screens meshes that are closer to the classification of what you want in the pay pile, the more will be sluffed off by the top and fall through the bottom of your classifier, and the less will be retained between the two screen meshs defining your ideal middle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Mark, I know your post is profound, but I cannot understand it. Please lay it out in layman's terms. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Mark, I know your post is profound, but I cannot understand it. Please lay it out in layman's terms. Ok... picture a rock crushing operation: Rock is drilled, blasted, and bulldozed into the mill. The bulldozer shoving the shot rock pushes the rock up onto a "grizzley". The grizzley is a course classifier... which sluffs off rocks that are too big to be processed by the crusher. The rocks that are too big for the crusher are pushed off to the side and abandoned. Then the shot rock that passes the grizzley is processed by the crusher. This includes everything from dust to whatever size of boulders the grizzley can deal with. The crusher pounds the big stuff into smaller stuff, and also pounds the dust into finer dust. Then the crushed rock stream is fed through a mesh screen classifier. The stuff that's too big to pass through the course mesh screen is reprocessed back through the crusher... to be pulverized again. The stuff that passes the fine screen is too fine to be of use and is conveyed to a waste pile. The stuff that passes the course screen, but won't pass the fine screen... that stuff goes to the "pay pile"... which is the finished product the crusher operator intends to produce. The closer the difference is between the mesh count of the course screen and the fine screen, the more uniform is the product... but generally the narrower the tolerance of the screening parameters, the less material will be retained in the pay pile, and more material is rejected. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 The crusher pounds the big stuff into smaller stuff, and also pounds the dust into finer dust.So, you're saying we should all carry a big hammer to beat on our customers if they don't quite meet the "ideal customer" grade ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 So, you're saying we should all carry a big hammer to beat on our customers if they don't quite meet the "ideal customer" grade ? That's how some contractors refine their customer base... others use a classifier to sort the customer base out... and others take-on whatever gets bulldozed their way. Different strokes for different folks. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Crownman Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 I had something like that happen once. The guy put two openers when there weren't going to be any. I got there at around 2 pm to start setting up and he tells me. I tell him that that wasn't what we agreed on for the price. He gets bitchy, so I tell him I want $150 each to mix the first two acts, and I want that $300 plus the 2nd half of payment in cash before the first act starts. Showtime comes, no money yet, no mics are turned on. The venue calls the promoter, he calls me all pissed off, I tell him no power until I have the cash in hand. The first act starts an hour late after the guy hands me the cold hard cash. I have no problem shutting down, or not even starting a gig when someone wants to try to shaft me. It's lost me a few gigs but they were with people I wouldn't want to work with anyway. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BillESC Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 I had something like that happen once. The guy put two openers when there weren't going to be any. I got there at around 2 pm to start setting up and he tells me. I tell him that that wasn't what we agreed on for the price. He gets bitchy, so I tell him I want $150 each to mix the first two acts, and I want that $300 plus the 2nd half of payment in cash before the first act starts. Showtime comes, no money yet, no mics are turned on. The venue calls the promoter, he calls me all pissed off, I tell him no power until I have the cash in hand. The first act starts an hour late after the guy hands me the cold hard cash.I have no problem shutting down, or not even starting a gig when someone wants to try to shaft me. It's lost me a few gigs but they were with people I wouldn't want to work with anyway. Crownman has it right. We were contracted for Sound and lights for Kool & the Gang at Temple University in Philadelphia. Contract required payment in full prior to the performance. Over 6000 people were very pissed off that the show started over two hours late. Try finding a promoter after a show is over.... might as well look for eternal youth. I got beat once early in the 70's, a George Carlin show at the State Theatre in New Brunswick, NJ. The promoter told me he'd settle up after the show once he had settled with the box office. Never saw him again. Lesson learned. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Mark's example is a mechanical sorter-grader, like a series of mechanical or physical band pass filters. You sort out the gogs you can't do because they require more than you can provide and those that you do not want to do because they pay poorly or have bad working conditions. There's your band reject parameters. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Mark's example is a mechanical sorter-grader, like a series of mechanical or physical band pass filters. You sort out the gogs you can't do because they require more than you can provide and those that you do not want to do because they pay poorly or have bad working conditions. There's your band reject parameters. With 20/20 hindsight, I believe my example was lame. With Andy's explaination here combined with my morning coffee... here's possibly some more-suitable food for thought concerning developing a contract for the purposes of defining working parameters: I own a couple of 40ch. boards. I also own 8 ea. high performance bi-amped wedge monitors. I also own some fairly classy (mainstream) outboard FX type gear. I also own a 48/96ch. lighting console. A few years ago I removed this gear from my possession by putting it out on a long term lease with another area sound & lighting contractor. In my current working inventory of sound and lighting gear that I use for contractor work I have purposely limited my equipment to involve nothing larger than 24ch. input sound consoles, passive wedges, 24ch. lighting board, my PAR 64 cans are loaded with 500w bulbs, my power distro gear is 50A 220V, my outboard FX gear is limited to 1ea. decent reverb and 1ea. decent delay device, a couple of quad gates, a couple of stereo comps, and 6ea. good 1/3 oct. EQ's. I don't have a splitter snake, nor do I have a monitor board... and I'm limited to 4 monitor mixes from the FOH board. My FOH system is sized to only cover crowds of upwards to maybe a few hundred. And, my service contract is extremely basic: names, dates, contact info, agreed upon price for services rendered and payment specifics, a few physical requirement specifics involving load-in and load out accessability, power, contingency plans for unforseen complications ... and that's it. IOW: I've purposely limited my capabilities. Why? 1) So I'm not put in a position to accomodate acts or be put in situations that require more than what a 24ch. FOH console can accomodate. 2) So I'm not put in a position to accomodate acts that require more than 4 monitor mixes, or require extremely high SPL capable bi-amp wedges, or require a split mix and dedicated monitor board and operator. 3) So I'm not put in a position to accomodate acts which have extensive lighting plots and/or require 1K lighting fixtures. 4) So I'm not put in a position of dealing with shows that require more than 50A of 220V power consumption. Admittedly, my self imposed equipment limitations have severely limited my marketability... but it has also eliminated a lot of possible situations that I don't want to be involved with. One impetus of why I took this approach is that I've found (in the past) that a service contract is only as good as the folks signing it... otherwise it's just a piece of paper. So, rather than attempting to rely on a service contract to qualify working parameters, I've instead configured my equipment capabilities to more narrowly define the work situations to what I want to be involved with. IOW: I've basically gotten to the point where I could probably dispense with using service contracts, except it's handy to have a piece of paper with all the names, dates, and event info on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members kevinnem Posted October 9, 2009 Members Share Posted October 9, 2009 Admittedly, my self imposed equipment limitations have severely limited my marketability... but it has also eliminated a lot of possible situations that I don't want to be involved with. One impetus of why I took this approach is that I've found (in the past) that a service contract is only as good as the folks signing it... otherwise it's just a piece of paper. So, rather than attempting to rely on a service contract to qualify working parameters, I've instead configured my equipment capabilities to more narrowly define the work situations to what I want to be involved with.IOW: I've basically gotten to the point where I could probably dispense with using service contracts, except it's handy to have a piece of paper with all the names, dates, and event info on it. yes, this is the point I was trying to make in my post. Right tool for the job. For example. (only! example). Maybe you just need to stop working with people like this? Maybe you need to charge more, and expect this happens.Maybe, what you really really need, when you think about is a "smart" phone, so that when the promoster says he asked for all fo this , you can pull out your phone and say " well in fact, this is the last email you sent me, and this is the list of what you needed.....". There is 1 enthic group in our town that is notorious for this sort of stuff, we did one gig that we where told would be 4-500 people, and about 8500 + showed up. It took a few gigs with these gusy to be able to crack the "secert code" of what they wanted VS what they told us. We also had to make everything up a lot more (even above what teh "extra" equipment costs where), just so they could "negotiate down". At the end of the day, they paid the smae price every one else does, +/-. On the plus side you at the very least are aware that these situations can now happen, and be aware of them in the future. Trust your gut, if you feel like you are being set up for a fall - you are. Kev. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 For our indoor bar shows this doesn't really apply as there are 100 bands out there that are willing to work without a net (contract). Probably 70% of our bookings are weddings, corporate and community events, which are 99% self booked (by me). I realize that's not the same as working with a promoter, but I'm almost always working with a client that has zero clue about this kind of stuff (but they are generally honest, well intentioned people). I would expect the following points would still apply in your case. 1 - Always write up a contract. If they won't do it you walk away. You've just saved yourself a heck of a lot of time and money. 2 - The week prior to the show send an email (can be a pre-formatted email) with all the important specifics of the contract pulled out. Attach a scanned copy of the contract so you know they have it. If it's a multi-band show, ask for anything that can be fronted (a program, list of bands, input list, stage plot, anything) 3 - Always give a courtesty call to the venue/promoter (whoever is involved) the week of to let them know when you plan on arriving and where is the best place to load in. This demonstrates respect, professionalism and sets expectations, not to mention gives a better chance that someone will be there to let you in. It also is a great way to figure out if they've changed times on you. You can usually get a few other questions or reminders in too. If you get a lot of "I don't knows", and "we'll figure it out when you get here's" you can pretty count on how your day is going to go. 4 - Always bring a copy of the fully executed contract with you. In 100% of our cases the final payment is due 14 days prior to the show. To the private clients I present it as a convenience as it allows them to use a personal check, which is what I was finding was being used at least 50% of the time when I made payment due at the event, even though the contract expressly forbid it. I also found collecting at the show was a total drag. Even though the contract stated payment must be made when we arrived, I never held to it as I'm not going to track down a bride on her wedding day and tell her she owes us money. So it became a game trying to find the right time to approach and ask for the check, only to have to wait for them to track 3 other people down and ultimately be handed a personal check. If it was there when we arrived it was sitting out in open in an envelope on the stage. That was no good either. I've actually found,even though it's a heck of a lot more work, I prefer booking everything directly versus using agents. I set the expectations, manage the relationship with the client and control the flow of money. Other than the occasional wedding cancellation, in which case we still have the deposit, it's been smooth sailing for several years now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 In addition to especially abzurd's excellent advice, and others, I suggest making a trip to a local attorney to check on state, regional, and local legal type considerations associated with drawing up a legally binding service contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members death metal jim Posted October 10, 2009 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 alot of great input here .thanks jim Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members timandbob Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 Hey, in my day job, I write contracts, so I have one that I use all the time for our band. If you want to see it, send me a PM with your email address and I will send it to you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JohnMCA72 Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 The whole point of a contract is to "memorialize" (i.e. document) the agreement between the parties involved. That agreement is what each of you promises to do for the other. One provides a product or service, the other provides cash. Details of who does what, when, what accomodations each of you has to make to allow the other to perform their part of the agreement is what you work out in advance. This is often referred to as "a meeting of the minds", where each of you understand what the other expects, and "shake on it". To help each party remember what was "shaken on", put it down in writing, and each sign to indicate that this is correct. If somebody balks at signing, right then is the very best time to find out that they plan on stiffing you! JM Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members timandbob Posted October 10, 2009 Members Share Posted October 10, 2009 The whole point of a contract is to "memorialize" (i.e. document) the agreement between the parties involved. That agreement is what each of you promises to do for the other. One provides a product or service, the other provides cash. Details of who does what, when, what accomodations each of you has to make to allow the other to perform their part of the agreement is what you work out in advance. This is often referred to as "a meeting of the minds", where each of you understand what the other expects, and "shake on it".To help each party remember what was "shaken on", put it down in writing, and each sign to indicate that this is correct. If somebody balks at signing, right then is the very best time to find out that they plan on stiffing you!JMExactly! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted October 11, 2009 Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 I was in the mortgage business for 20 plus years and crooks have no problem signing papers. They know it will cost you more to litigate than its worth. My advice is just make up some simple order form for equipment and services unless you think you would actually spend the time and money to go to court over it. I once spent 90K in legal expenses to collect 70K haha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted October 11, 2009 Members Share Posted October 11, 2009 I was in the mortgage business for 20 plus years and crooks have no problem signing papersThat's why you get the cash BEFORE the gig starts. Kinda hard to get ripped off if you've already got paid, no? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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