Completely New to Live Sound-Need Direction

[gbcmusicguy]

Hey guys,

I am newer than new to the whole live sound system arena so I need some direction to get me started looking at components. All I really know is what I would like to accomplish, I'm just totally clueless as to what all I need. The basic breakdown is I want to two main speakers, two stage monitors, one or two wireless lapel mics, a digital piano, and some dynamic mics. I currently own a Profire 2626 that I believe will allow me (using the DSP mixer) to run all this and still send it to my Cubase 5 for live recording on a laptop.

 

My questions include.....

 

What models of Power amps are good? and do I need two to run all 4 speakers or would one dual power amp work?

 

What brands/models of PA speakers are good. I mainly just want something with a full sound for public speaking as well as some vocals and piano.

 

What wireless lapel mics are good? I've found some Shure and AT models that look ok, but what do I know?

 

This system will be used in various types of venues and acoustical situations.

 

I appreciate any input anyone may have.

Thanks in advance.

[TimmyP]

More information is needed, such as:

 

Instrumentation of the ensemble.

 

Genre of music.

 

Size and type of venues that the system will need to cover/fill.

[agedhorse]

If you are looking to a live sound rig, get a real mixer before it stuffs you into the ground. Live sound doesn't have the latitude that recording audio does in terms of do-overs etc.

[1tribe]

This is a tough request, one reason is where to start. Sounds like its time to study and search (LOLS). I have spent countless hours searching these forums as well as PSW forums.

I guess first things that might help with your searching and questions is to spec out your needs and budget. How many people do you plan to speak/perform to? Will there be loud music? What type of music? A few things like this might help out and getting your party started.

 

Since your starting from scratch, you might start looking at self powered speakers. This is a great way to eliminate the "what amp for my speakers" problem. All you need is a few XLR and power cables coming from you mixer and your set.

 

A few good examples of powered speakers to start looking at: JBL PRX512 or 515. There are plenty others out there too. EV, Peavey, RCF, FBT and QSC all make good powered speakers.

 

If you really want to go the amp and speaker route, QSC and Crown are both excellent builders of amps.

You CAN run all four speakers on the same amp, you will be running your system in mono so one side of the amp will run the tops and the other side will run the monitors. Both monitors will be the same mix.

This gets alittle harder because you need to size things up propperly. An example might be: four JBL MRX512 speakers and a single QSC PLX1804 power amp. Another: EV SX300 speakers/same amp.

This amp will give each speaker 450w-2 per side with a 4 ohm load.

[cappttenron]

sorry you forgot what is budget? If I was building a system from scratch I would go with powered speakers. So your budget is going to make a huge difference. Figure on 600-800 per speaker for some semi pro models.

[Shaster]

Wondering about budget, style of music, size of target venues (audience size mainly), and any space limitations (small car, or truck with a trailer).

 

I hesitate to ask, but what purpose are the lapel mics serving - is this for broadcasting, theatre?

 

+1 to getting a live sound board.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

I am newer than new to the whole live sound system arena one or two wireless lapel mics, What wireless lapel mics are good? I've found some Shure and AT models that look ok, but what do I know? This system will be used in various types of venues and acoustical situations.

 

I'll suggest to reconsider lapel mics for your application, wireless or otherwise. Both Shure and AT offer some very good lapel mics; however:

 

I'm of the opinion lapel mics have a place, being in television studios... and some other applications, but live audio is decidedly not one of those

[gbcmusicguy]

Thanks for the responses guys. I'll try to answer the questions that have been raised....

 

The crowd size could vary greatly, anywhere from 200 to 2000. The venue also will likely vary quite a bit.

 

The budget question is a hard one to answer cause we're in such early stages of planning. The other reason I didn't include that before was because I really didn't know enough to say. Bottom line is I'm willing to spend a little extra for quality but can't go top-of-the-line with all the bells and whistles quite yet. Not sure that helps, but hopefully.

 

The genre of music will be conservative Christian. I realize you all probably don't hear that one very often, but there will be no loud instruments involved. We're talking piano, maybe some acoustical instur. like guitars or stringed instruments and that's gonna be about it. We'll have up to maybe 4 or 6 people singing at once and often just one or two.

 

The lapel mic will actually be used mainly for speaking, very little if any for singing. This whole set up is for preaching services all over the country. That being said, durability and reliability are probably important as well. So to address the question about transportation limitations, it will likely be towed in a cargo trailer. We don't have that yet, so as of now I will say that space limitations are a non factor.

 

Hope this sheds some more light on things. I look forward to hearing further information and suggestions

[agedhorse]

In rooms of 2000, a lapel mic will be tough to get adequate gain before feedback under most situations. For this application, the majority of the market has migrated towards micro-headsets. Much better articulation too.

[Craig Vecchione]

2000 souls? That's a big crowd, dare I say, a mob? And that's what you might have on your hands if they pay and you don't come through.

 

As a start, I have two suggestions:

 

1. Yamaha Live Sound Handbook. Read it.

 

2. Rental sound company. Hire one. Tell them you'd like to tag with the engineer for a gig or two. See what gear they use depending on the venue and crowd (yours is a big range of audience size, and that's an issue) and how they use the rig. This is not free or necessarily cheap, but the value in real world knowledge is priceless.

 

Oh, and ask here about anything. The only stupid question is the one that goes unasked.

[dennis a]

 

In rooms of 2000, a lapel mic will be tough to get adequate gain before feedback under most situations. For this application, the majority of the market has migrated towards micro-headsets. Much better articulation too.

 

 

I think Countryman E6 has become the industry standard for churches

[1tribe]

 

Thanks for the responses guys. I'll try to answer the questions that have been raised.... The crowd size could vary greatly, anywhere from 200 to 2000. The venue also will likely vary quite a bit. The budget question is a hard one to answer cause we're in such early stages of planning. The other reason I didn't include that before was because I really didn't know enough to say. Bottom line is I'm willing to spend a little extra for quality but can't go top-of-the-line with all the bells and whistles quite yet. Not sure that helps, but hopefully. The genre of music will be conservative Christian. I realize you all probably don't hear that one very often, but there will be no loud instruments involved. We're talking piano, maybe some acoustical instur. like guitars or stringed instruments and that's gonna be about it. We'll have up to maybe 4 or 6 people singing at once and often just one or two. The lapel mic will actually be used mainly for speaking, very little if any for singing. This whole set up is for preaching services all over the country. That being said, durability and reliability are probably important as well. So to address the question about transportation limitations, it will likely be towed in a cargo trailer. We don't have that yet, so as of now I will say that space limitations are a non factor. Hope this sheds some more light on things. I look forward to hearing further information and suggestions

 

 

 

 

 

Well my friend this changes things ALOT!! I do agree with the ole horse, rid your self of those nasty lapel mic's and get used to the mini headsets. Just sound so much better not to mention the feedback issues.

 

A few things to consider before you start buying equipment: venues and AC power. Ive been in alot of hotel banquent rooms with only a few 15amp outlets. Will you have to deal with stairs? How about the time limits to set up and pack it all out? Will you be doing any outdoor venues?

 

For smaller shows a set of speakers on a poles should be fine and cover up to 200 peeps fine maybe more depending on coverage and size of the room.

 

For larger shows you could do pretty well with something like a JBL VRX powered system, or passive system on Crown IT amps. JBL claims they will cover pretty good sized crowds up to 1000 peeps but be ready to spead about $25 grand. After that its time to rent or hire a sound co.

 

A decent mixer is also needed. Dont discount any idea's that you will only need up to 10 channels. The Presonus Studio/live mixer would be a great mixer for your needs. It has lots of features and the option to record to a laptop and edit the show later.

[gbcmusicguy]

Thanks guys again for the info. I've been doing a lot research today after looking over everyone's suggestions again. I'm liking the idea of the JBL prx512 and 515s. In my limited experience with speakers JBL has always seemed quality to me. In fact that's what my home surround sound system is comprised of. Plus those have the Crown amps in them which seem to be good by consensus.

I also tend to agree with those who say to get a mixer instead of using my Profire. It would definitely be easier to quickly pinpoint and fix problems on the fly, instead of clicking a million things on my screen. For recording, I may try to keep it simple and just send a final stereo mix from the mixer to the Profire and leave it at that. Maybe I can get more fancy down the road.

 

I wonder if an Allen and Heath ZED 24 is as good as advertised. It looked nice and versatile when I looked today. A couple Yamahas looked workable too. Any suggestions there?

 

Also, it seems Furman power conditioners seem to be the standard that everyone uses for power protection/multi-outlets. Are there any others I should consider for this type of equipment?

 

Thanks again. I'm sure as I get farther into this my questions will continue.

[banddad]

Since you will be traveling, it's good to stick with brands that can get serviced in many places, or are super rugged. JBL and A&H are both good in that regards.

 

I have an Allen & Heath MixWiz, as often recommended here on the board. Great mixer. The MixWiz can send all channels to a recorder individually, this is a feature you may want to look into for whatever you pick out.

 

Power strips are fine, as long as you stay in their power ratings. Don't expect Furman to do any 'conditioning', tho they are convenient.

 

You have quite a challenge in your varying sizes of venues. Keep is scalable. Powered speakers, such as the JBL's you've noted, will work well for this.

[agedhorse]

 

I think Countryman E6 has become the industry standard for churches

 

 

Not churches I outfit.

[dennis a]

 

Not churches I outfit.

 

 

What is your headset/earset mic of choice?

[agedhorse]

 

What is your headset/earset mic of choice?

 

 

Depends on the application, and the user's attention to detail, care of equipment and budget. Typically I'll use an AT-892 but will use the Pro 92 for folks that aren't quite so careful. The E-6 is just too fragile and expensive for many applications.

[dennis a]

 

The E-6 is just too fragile and expensive for many applications.

 

 

No argument there.

 

dennis

[Shaster]

 

Thanks guys again for the info. I've been doing a lot research today after looking over everyone's suggestions again. I'm liking the idea of the JBL prx512 and 515s. In my limited experience with speakers JBL has always seemed quality to me. I wonder if an Allen and Heath ZED 24 is as good as advertised. It looked nice and versatile when I looked today. A couple Yamahas looked workable too. Any suggestions there? Also, it seems Furman power conditioners seem to be the standard that everyone uses for power protection/multi-outlets. Are there any others I should consider for this type of equipment? Thanks again. I'm sure as I get farther into this my questions will continue.

 

 

I believe the Allen and Heath ZED series only have one sweep EQ (instead of the two that the MixWiz has). this may mean nothing to you now, but if you're playing all kinds of rooms, you'll want two EQ's that sweep.

 

Furman is good, but unless there's a time dependant deal, I would just set some money aside and then make a decision on power conitioners later - lots more to think about before then.

 

And factor in hiring a rental company for your first few gigs, or at least hiring a tech (mixing on what you get) for your first few gigs - as Craigv suggested.

 

Yes JBL is good but stay away from the JRX line (long story). If budget is not a primary concern, and you'll be travelling the country in a van... the JBL Prx12's look like a good option. Having them as your mains and monitors would also be good if a cabinet fails, simply pull a monitor and limp through on stage (with the FOH as per normal).

 

Also, having played a fair bit of large ballrooms..., you might want two cabs a side for coverage - especially if the spoken word is important.

 

As agedhorse and others have said, lapel mics would be trouble in your situation - besides, headsets look cool:)

[gbcmusicguy]

More great info guys. I appreciate it. Haven't seen the MixWiz before so I'll definitely check it out. Good to hear I'm on the right track with some of this stuff though.

 

I'll have to look farther into these ear clip microphones. The ones I've seen so far seem to be fairly pricey. May have to go with the lapel just for money's sake at first. Not sure I'll pull off two cabs per side plus monitors to start with either. But who knows.

 

I HAD heard before that Furman's don't really "condition" power, so that sorta doesn't surprise me. I may go with the plain 8x-m (??) which looks to me like nothing more than a rack mountable power strip. Only 60 bucks, so we can upgrade later like recommended.

[Dogoth]

I've used Shure Beta 54 mics before. They have a super cardioid pattern, sound great (IMHO as good as the E6) and are really durable. They aren't as invisible as the E6 but they work great and won't die easily.

 

I don't believe anyone has addressed the idea of some wireless systems here yet. If I'm getting the right picture of what you're trying to do you will want some frequency agile UHF recievers & beltpacks (for your Lavalier or headset mics). There are lots of great makers of these as well. I can recommend Shure, Audio Techika, Sennheiser, Sony to name a few..... This is one place you don't want to cheap out (cheap RF units will only give you grief forever). Most Lav and headworn mics will mate up with most beltpacks, it's just a matter of getting them with the right connector (check with your vendor for compatability).

 

Just some thoughts.

[1tribe]

Just incase you missed it in my thread, for a mixer that would really fit your needs the Presonus Studio live would be wonderful!

[gbcmusicguy]

Haha! Thanks 1tribe. I did see that in your post, but I also saw the big price tag on it at MF. That may have to be something we work up to later.

 

Thanks JRBLE for the input. I've looked at some of those wireless systems and noticed the UHF or RF deal, but wasn't sure about it. I've found a couple that caught my eye....both sennheisers. One is the PF12 system and the other is the EW 112 G3 system. Both are the lapel instead of ear clip route, but seemed okay. I like them cause I'm thinking they were both rackmountable. Not sure if they were UHF or not, but I'll recheck that.

 

I've been leaning toward a package deal of sm58s and sm57s that I think comes from MF. But I've also looked at Sennheiser e835s and then getting all my cables and stuff from monoprice.com. I'll check out the beta 54s though for sure.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

but there will be no loud instruments involved. We're talking piano, maybe some acoustical instur. like guitars or stringed instruments and that's gonna be about it. We'll have up to maybe 4 or 6 people singing at once and often just one or two. The lapel mic will actually be used mainly for speaking, very little if any for singing.

 

 

The job you're setting out to do is difficult to do well (extremely challenging). Chances are your audience will expect television-like (or CD quality) sound.

 

It doesn't matter that the lapel mics will be used mainly for speaking, they will still be difficult to manage.

[Shaster]

 

More great info guys. I appreciate it. Haven't seen the MixWiz before so I'll definitely check it out. Good to hear I'm on the right track with some of this stuff though. I'll have to look farther into these ear clip microphones. The ones I've seen so far seem to be fairly pricey. May have to go with the lapel just for money's sake at first. Not sure I'll pull off two cabs per side plus monitors to start with either. But who knows.

 

 

 

Please, please, do not cheap out on mics, and please don't get lapels. You need the best you can buy or rent. The mics are the first step in your PA chain. If they're no good it doesn't much matter what comes next.

 

Two speakers a side aren't mandatory. I made that suggestion based on my experience, not necessarily on your particular needs.

 

Can't stress enough that you can't cheap out on microphones. And yes I was assuming you were going wireless. The Audio technica ATW3000 series gets recommended here a fair bit. I took that advice and purchased a ATW3000 mic and the end users are very happy.

 

I would say you need to scare up more money, or rent for the time being. It's my opinion that if you cheap out on the spoken word (ie. people can't hear you) then you're wasting everyone's time. And unfortunately you would be wasting "the message" whatever that might be.