Members Dogoth Posted November 26, 2009 Members Share Posted November 26, 2009 Please, please, do not cheap out on mics, and please don't get lapels. You need the best you can buy or rent. The mics are the first step in your PA chain. If they're no good it doesn't much matter what comes next. Two speakers a side aren't mandatory. I made that suggestion based on my experience, not necessarily on your particular needs. Can't stress enough that you can't cheap out on microphones. And yes I was assuming you were going wireless. The Audio technica ATW3000 series gets recommended here a fair bit. I took that advice and purchased a ATW3000 mic and the end users are very happy. I would say you need to scare up more money, or rent for the time being. It's my opinion that if you cheap out on the spoken word (ie. people can't hear you) then you're wasting everyone's time. And unfortunately you would be wasting "the message" whatever that might be. From a true micaholic, everything Shaster say's is true. Almost everyone here agree's "Dont use lapel mics for live work" you are just asking for a world of grief. I understand Galaxy makes a headworn mic (like the E6) for around $100. My buddy used a couple a few month's back and said they worked quite well (not an E6 but still FAR BETTER that a lavalier mic). I've been doing live sound for better than 30 years and I still wince when I'm asked to use a Lav mic (and I always ask "is there ANY other alternative?"). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gbcmusicguy Posted November 27, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 27, 2009 Boy, you guys are pretty sure about these headworn mics. I will refocus my wireless mic search on those. Sounds like it would be better for us to get a lesser version of that kind of mic than to get ANY kind of lapel mic. Just gotta talk the preacher into wearing it now. Hope everybody had a great Thanksgiving. Musicguy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 27, 2009 Members Share Posted November 27, 2009 Just gotta talk the preacher into wearing it now. Yup... I read that between the lines from the git-go. I don't know (well I do know) what the love affair is that preachers have with wireless lapel mics. It's a tough obstacle to over-come. I don't think it's an effective enough explaination that the system will function considerably better to get a preacher to change to a headset mic. I think it's a pure vanity thing (they envision that headset mics look encumbering and dorky). Maybe this will help in making a case for headset mics look ok: http://blog.mlive.com/flintjournal/entertainment/2008/04/large_Celtic_Woman.jpg Another: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v28is4jFWeo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted November 27, 2009 Members Share Posted November 27, 2009 Boy, you guys are pretty sure about these headworn mics. I will refocus my wireless mic search on those. Sounds like it would be better for us to get a lesser version of that kind of mic than to get ANY kind of lapel mic. Just gotta talk the preacher into wearing it now. Hope everybody had a great Thanksgiving. Musicguy The big reason for the difference is positioning. A Lavalier mic just doesn't point toward the sound path (the direction the speaker/singer is projecting their voice), nor can it be placed very close (think of a singer putting the mic right up to their lips). A whole lot of the game in live sound is GBF (Gain Before Feedback). This would be especialy true with trying to get spoken words to larger audiences (like your possible 2k crowds) because you have to have more total system gain to fill the room. Percieved sound power works on a log square scale (I won't get into much math here - it bores me as well :>). Simply put, twice as much gain (power) only sounds a little louder, and it takes roughly 10 times as much power to be percieved as twice as loud (this is where the terms bel and decibel (1 db = .1 bel) came from). The amount of system gain required to acheve a particular objective depends a LOT on the original source (if the original source A is already 10 db louder than original source B then the system gain for source A (all other things being equal) can be 10 db less than for B). You can see where Source B would be MUCH more likely to feed back (you'll NEVER hear an electric guitar cabinet mic feed back :>). The distance from the source and direction a mic is placed is one of those "all things being equal" things I spoke of earlier. Pointing the mic at the source (rather than off axis) can make a 10 db difference in your overall required system gain. Each halving of the distance between the mic and the source will make a 3 db difference in your overall required system gain. A lavalier mic at best is 8" away and off axis from the speakers mouth. A headworn mic is about 1" away. (the distance alone is around another 10 db less gain you have to provide). So an estimate is somewhere around 20 db total less gain required between a lavalier and a headworn mic to achieve the same output volume at your speakers. It's all about GBF! Hope this wasn't too much info at once, but it was a fairly complete explanation of WHY. Good luck. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dennis a Posted November 27, 2009 Members Share Posted November 27, 2009 Agedhorse's comment "The E-6 is just too fragile and expensive for many applications." is kind of a good news/bad news thing. It's a bummer it is fragile but that is because both the boom and the wire are tiny gauge and become almost invisible 20' away. Preacher will like that. It's a bummer they are expensive but they are flatter response than a lot of the competition which equals gain before feedback. Another place you should be looking for the flattest response is in speaker selection. A speaker that works fine for live music won't necessarily create a happy environment for a lav or earset mic. Since you are attempting to cover 2000 people with 4 speakers on sticks, the deck is already stacked against you. Dennis Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members roadweiry Posted November 27, 2009 Members Share Posted November 27, 2009 If your truly starting from scratch a pre-packaged system is hard to beat. I would have saved my self thousands by now had i just spent 6-9k right off the bat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 27, 2009 Members Share Posted November 27, 2009 It's all about GBF! Yea, but they use them on teevee all the time and they sound great! So why wouldn't a budget lavalier mic with a weak battery sound great inna big reverberant building with vaulted ceilings, with the mic wadded up in a robe, and the wearer's mumbling something and standing in-front of a speaker that doesn't have very smooth response? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted November 27, 2009 Members Share Posted November 27, 2009 TeeVee has no GBF issues, it's an open loop process. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 28, 2009 Members Share Posted November 28, 2009 TeeVee has no GBF issues, it's an open loop process. I guess I should have included that in my devil's advocate point list. I forget that this sort of stuff isn't obvious to some, or many/most gentle opinionators of "I saw it on teevee, therefore it must be good". I've worked event after event where the speaker, or performer insisted on using a lavaliere mic, and I could get more gain out of the HVAC system through the mic than their voice. That sort of disparaging gain challenge is really discouraging... and I certainly wouldn't want to face that show after show, with a system I spec-ed out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gbcmusicguy Posted November 28, 2009 Author Members Share Posted November 28, 2009 Yup... I read that between the lines from the git-go. I don't know (well I do know) what the love affair is that preachers have with wireless lapel mics. It's a tough obstacle to over-come. I don't think it's an effective enough explaination that the system will function considerably better to get a preacher to change to a headset mic. I think it's a pure vanity thing (they envision that headset mics look encumbering and dorky). Well Hellinger the thing I have going for me is that he and i both agree that what he has to say is the most important of anything we do. So, if the message can potentially get through better with these kinds of mics, he might NOT be hard to convince. We'll be meeting again the first part of next week, so we'll see. It's all about GBF! Hope this wasn't too much info at once, but it was a fairly complete explanation of WHY. JRBLE that was a GREAT explanation! I really appreciate that. Making it simple enough for ME to understand is no small accomplishment. Also, I'd like to say that the 2000 people estimate was just that. Probably that is the absolute max we'd see, and likely we won't see that at the get-go. I included a number that big more to make everyone aware that the possibility was there. Just noticed that getting mentioned alot, so I thought I'd throw that out there. Ultimately you guys are helping a ton, and I appreciate it. I've got a list of potential equipment forming right now. I think in the next few days I'll post on here what I think my potential setup might be and see what you all think. You can either see how much I've learned or see that there's no hope for the new guy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 28, 2009 Members Share Posted November 28, 2009 Well Hellinger the thing I have going for me is that he and i both agree that what he has to say is the most important of anything we do. So, if the message can potentially get through better with these kinds of mics, he might NOT be hard to convince. We'll be meeting again the first part of next week, so we'll see. I've had this same conversation over and over with those who profess the message is the thesis of the exercise. Most are still clinging onto their lapel mics, and I no-longer attempt to mix sound for them (and attempt to sort-out the HVAC unit as to which message goes to the audience). Good luck... and carry on the good fight. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 28, 2009 Members Share Posted November 28, 2009 Also, I'd like to say that the 2000 people estimate was just that. Probably that is the absolute max we'd see, and likely we won't see that at the get-go. I included a number that big more to make everyone aware that the possibility was there. Just noticed that getting mentioned alot, so I thought I'd throw that out there. I'll suggest it's generally better to engineer a structure to accomodate the maximum expected capacity, rather than an average capacity, otherwise, there'd be a lot of bridges under water. We are discussing bridges here, right? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members 6Imzadi Posted November 29, 2009 Members Share Posted November 29, 2009 Mark,Do you happen to know the model of the headworn mic the woman uses in the utube video you linked to? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members W. M. Hellinger Posted November 30, 2009 Members Share Posted November 30, 2009 Mark,Do you happen to know the model of the headworn mic the woman uses in the utube video you linked to? From what I understand, the vocalists mics are DPA 4065 (B&K mics I believe). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gbcmusicguy Posted December 2, 2009 Author Members Share Posted December 2, 2009 Well guys, had this weekss meeting with the evangelist about this new endeavor and it turns out the case for an earset mic wasn't as hard to prove as I first thought it would be. In fact, he immediately agreed! So there ya go! Now I just gotta figure out which one to get. But there's time for that. So I'm trying to form in my mind a picture of my setup and all and I'm thinking I would like to start with the following.... Allen and Heath ZED24 JBL prx515s up front on stands (2 of them) JBL prx512s on the floor for monitors (2 of them) A digital piano that will DI into the mixer Shure and/or Sennheiser mics (4-6 of these)(maybe some ATs too or instead) Wireless mic system Accessories and etc. That seems like it should be a good foundation to start with. Quality, reliable stuff, but not over the top on the price side. In talking through more details we will likely in the beginning look for venues that seat around 150-300 and see how it goes. Obviously if we are successful and need to go to bigger venues, I'd like to maybe add another set of 515s up front for better coverage, but that's probably down the road. This setup seems like it would be fairly "simple" to get going with as I learn. Obviously I still have MUCH to learn before we hit the road, so this list is not set in stone, but at least it's a place to start. What think you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted December 3, 2009 Members Share Posted December 3, 2009 From what I understand, the vocalists mics are DPA 4065 (B&K mics I believe). DPA mics! I've used these a couple of times and they are almost miraculous in the way they sound but.........They are WAY on the pricey side. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.