CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 14, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 Craig, that was over my head. What exactly is a quad box? I googled it and found this... http://www.professionalequipment.com/gfci-cord-protection-quad-boxes-15a-6ft-cord-14880-003-012/gfci-cord-protection/Is it what you are talking about? I lot of the places we play have these installed as their outlets. You are saying if a place has a dual outlet it may cause some noise and to solve the noise I could get one (or as many as necessary) of the boxes I linked above, plug it into the outlet in the wall, and run the power from there? Yup, that's it, a cord with a box that has four receptacles is commonly called a "quad box" around here. Sorry for using terms that may not be universally understood. To clarify your last paragraph, you wouldn't really have a ground hum issue on the two outlets of a duplex "Edison" receptacle (the typical wall outlet) or even a four-gang (two Edisons). The noise problems come into play sometimes with two separate receptacles on the same circuit, or on two different circuits. The ground wires are all supposed to have tight and clean connections, and all should go directly back to the breaker panel and it's ground rod system. But sometimes the connections are loose or corroded, or they aren't wired correctly and have multiple paths back to the breaker panel. Or maybe your sound system creates multiple ground paths. This can cause hum in some cases. The difference in resistance between the two paths allows a small current to flow in the ground, and some of our gear picks up that noise. One way to try to solve this is to take your power from the same circuit. Obviously, if you have a lot of gear the total load can exceed the circuit's ampacity, but keeping like parts of the system on common power as much as possible can help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 14, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 14, 2010 I should mention that in your linked example, the GFCI is a good idea if you play outdoors, but is not a requirement for the thing to be a quad box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Norton666 Posted January 14, 2010 Members Share Posted January 14, 2010 Powered speakers are the way to go for most applications. Unless you are putting together a fairly large scale system , I would always opt for powered boxes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mrcpro Posted January 14, 2010 Members Share Posted January 14, 2010 I know that I'm going to get a lot of flack for this because there's nothing to base this on other than what gets put up in forums, but here it is: The power amps in powered speakers are just not as reliable as dedicated power amps. I know I know - each powered speaker has thousands of units out there and we only hear about the failures etc. - but in contrast you practically never hear about a separate power amp failing. They seem to be one of the most dependable components in the signal chain. That is definitely not the case with power amps in speakers. When the amp is in the speaker, it is being physically vibrated constantly and probably doesn't have the cooling capacity of a separate unit. I'm sticking with separates for a lot of reasons but that's the main one. OK tear into me guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members modulusman Posted January 14, 2010 Members Share Posted January 14, 2010 I know that I'm going to get a lot of flack for this because there's nothing to base this on other than what gets put up in forums, but here it is: The power amps in powered speakers are just not as reliable as dedicated power amps. I know I know - each powered speaker has thousands of units out there and we only hear about the failures etc. - but in contrast you practically never hear about a separate power amp failing. They seem to be one of the most dependable components in the signal chain. That is definitely not the case with power amps in speakers. When the amp is in the speaker, it is being physically vibrated constantly and probably doesn't have the cooling capacity of a separate unit. I'm sticking with separates for a lot of reasons but that's the main one. OK tear into me guys! What kind of POS powered speakers have you used? :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted January 14, 2010 Members Share Posted January 14, 2010 I'm sticking with separates for a lot of reasons but that's the main one. Anecdotally, I suspect the failure rate for seperates to be higher by at least a factor 3 (mostly due to operator error: "It just quit working!"). Just ask our resident techs/reconers. However, for a more practical and evidenced example, take a look at how Harman, QSC and others who have the actual data available to make qualified decision choose to warranty their products. It seems they are willing to stick their neck out farther on their powered, processed, all-in-ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted January 14, 2010 Members Share Posted January 14, 2010 Hell, I've beaten the $#!@ out of my 'ringer B412DSP's and they haven't blown yet . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Gregidon Posted January 14, 2010 Members Share Posted January 14, 2010 I know that I'm going to get a lot of flack for this because there's nothing to base this on other than what gets put up in forums, but here it is: The power amps in powered speakers are just not as reliable as dedicated power amps. I know I know - each powered speaker has thousands of units out there and we only hear about the failures etc. - but in contrast you practically never hear about a separate power amp failing. They seem to be one of the most dependable components in the signal chain. That is definitely not the case with power amps in speakers. When the amp is in the speaker, it is being physically vibrated constantly and probably doesn't have the cooling capacity of a separate unit.I'm sticking with separates for a lot of reasons but that's the main one. OK tear into me guys! No offense, but that is at best circumstantial evidence and at worst a complete guess. I seriously doubt that this is the case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Anecdotally, I suspect the failure rate for seperates to be higher by at least a factor 3 (mostly due to operator error: "It just quit working!"). Just ask our resident techs/reconers. This would be my guess as well. So in the end, if you don't know what you are doing, the failure rate of the system as a whole (for the average joe/josephine) is probably higher with seperates. It doesn't matter if the amp or the speaker dies - No sound comes out of the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members banddad Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Another subtle reason for passives: Passive speakers tend to be a bit lighter to lift up onto poles than powered speakers (a whopping 7 pounds in the case of JBL 512's). However, this argument doesn't hold much "weight" for subs on the floor! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rwhealey Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Another subtle reason for passives:Passive speakers tend to be a bit lighter to lift up onto poles than powered speakers (a whopping 7 pounds in the case of JBL 512's). However, this argument doesn't hold much "weight" for subs on the floor! Not always true: EV Zx1: 18 lbsEV ZxA1: 19 lbs EV Zx5: 47 lbsEV ZxA5: 50 lbs I've heard that the amps weight almost as much as the passive crossovers they replace. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 The power amps in powered speakers are just not as reliable as dedicated power amps. I know I know - each powered speaker has thousands of units out there and we only hear about the failures etc. - but in contrast you practically never hear about a separate power amp failing. They seem to be one of the most dependable components in the signal chain. That is definitely not the case with power amps in speakers. When the amp is in the speaker, it is being physically vibrated constantly and probably doesn't have the cooling capacity of a separate unit.I'm sticking with separates for a lot of reasons but that's the main one. OK tear into me guys! My turn!!! Actually, powered speakers in general have lower failure rates than power amps alone. Mostly due to user errors. The amps in most of these units are almost identical to the amps in standalone chassis. Cooling is by design and can be every bit as good or better than stand alone since there is control over load impedances. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 15, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 No offense, but that is at best circumstantial evidence and at worst a complete guess. Anecdotal. And mrcpro did state that he was only basing his opinion on what he's read in forums. What is a bit of a mystery to me is why one would make purchase decisions with "nothing to base this on other than what gets put up in forums". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sickman Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Thanks for all this good info from both sides. I'm hoping the band I play with will elect to use the JBL PRX 512s I bought over the Yamaha clubs powered by a Carvin powered mixer that we are currently using. I'm sort of waiting to bring them to a practice when I add a sub(s), most likely one JBL PRX 518 at a time. So far, I've gotten a lot of slack, but I think it's because it is unknown territory for them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 15, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 If they choose the Clubs over the PRX, you'll need to start hanging with a better class of people..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sickman Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 If they choose the Clubs over the PRX, you'll need to start hanging with a better class of people..... I think it's what they are comfortable with and feel like "it's working now". They've said some of the very arguments against powered speakers that I have read in this thread. I figure if I bring them to practice one time it will hopefully win them over. If not, I've got some good speakers for home jamming and future use. My only concern is if I purchase a sub and for some reason they don't want to use the PRX speakers, then I'd just have spent a lot of money (to me) on a piece of musical equipment I really won't be getting a use out of. BTW, have you guys seen those Proehl 15 inch active subs TBLBonehead has posted? How do you think they'd work for a band that doesn't need a lot of low end (classic rock, blues, jam rock, very little newer rock and smaller bars)? I'm thinking I'd be better off with sticking with the PRX and picking up one sub as I have the funds available... even one should help improve our sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jerry007 Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Thanks for all this good info from both sides. I'm hoping the band I play with will elect to use the JBL PRX 512s I bought over the Yamaha clubs powered by a Carvin powered mixer that we are currently using. I'm sort of waiting to bring them to a practice when I add a sub(s), most likely one JBL PRX 518 at a time. So far, I've gotten a lot of slack, but I think it's because it is unknown territory for them. I can see where the PRX's clarity might be perceived as lacking low end in comparison with the Clubs. I suggest setting your eq flat when you A/B them. I've actually owned both the PRX and the Clubs. The Clubs sound great, until you compare them to something better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 15, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 I think it's what they are comfortable with and feel like "it's working now". They've said some of the very arguments against powered speakers that I have read in this thread. I figure if I bring them to practice one time it will hopefully win them over. If not, I've got some good speakers for home jamming and future use. As I wrote; a better class of people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sickman Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 As I wrote; a better class of people. You do realize they are musicians?? Personally, I think the PRX rig would be better than 99% of the bands we are competing with.... plus it's mobile enough to fit in my SUV. I keep going back and forth on biting the bullet. I'm a cheap bastard, but I'm not getting any younger. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sickman Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 I can see where the PRX's clarity might be perceived as lacking low end in comparison with the Clubs. I suggest setting your eq flat when you A/B them. I've actually owned both the PRX and the Clubs. The Clubs sound great, until you compare them to something better. Haha... I remember you posting here when I was just starting to seriously look. You made up your mind a lot faster than me. We have finally started picking up the pace in the way of gigs, so it might be time for me. I don't really sing though, but I would like to sing more and would definitely like to improve the bands sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted January 15, 2010 CMS Author Share Posted January 15, 2010 You do realize they are musicians?? Personally, I think the PRX rig would be better than 99% of the bands we are competing with.... plus it's mobile enough to fit in my SUV. I keep going back and forth on biting the bullet. I'm a cheap bastard, but I'm not getting any younger. Yep, i know they are, which is all the more surprising....muso's are usually interested in better sound, and always interested in better sound that they don't have to pay for. If I were in your position I'd either can the idea entirely, or look for another band. No point in having to fight to spend your money for improvements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Nothing wrong with being a cheap bastard... the problem is being a cheap, stuborn, dumb bastard The difference is really substantial between the PRX and Clubs. You will appreciate the difference every time you use them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sickman Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Yep, i know they are, which is all the more surprising....muso's are usually interested in better sound, and always interested in better sound that they don't have to pay for. If I were in your position I'd either can the idea entirely, or look for another band. No point in having to fight to spend your money for improvements. I haven't told them what I have so they may think it is junk?? Either way, I moved here two years ago and this is the first group of people I have found without any drama or hassle involved. I haven't made a huge effort to push the idea, but I think once I bring them to a practice it will win them over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sickman Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Nothing wrong with being a cheap bastard... the problem is being a cheap, stuborn, dumb bastard The difference is really substantial between the PRX and Clubs. You will appreciate the difference every time you use them. I have used them with friends at my house for jams and I can definitely hear the difference. Much louder, clearer and they just sound better. These jams were also louder than the band I play with could ever be at any of the bars we play. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members soul-x Posted January 15, 2010 Members Share Posted January 15, 2010 Cooling is by design and can be every bit as good or better than stand alone since there is control over load impedances. and no bridged operation button Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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