Make Neighbors Happy, Keep Venue Open

[DarinStevens]

How could someone record SPL measurements? A local outdoor venue is attempting to start up live music again, but there have been some noise issues with the neighbors, which stopped live music.

 

Apparently the county told the manager that if he could record SPL measurements and make them available to the county to show that they were staying within the prescribed limits that he could get a temporary permit.

 

I'd guess that where he puts the meter makes all the difference, and the perception of the neighbors is going to ultimately be at least as important to the county as the "hard" data the manager can supply.

 

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for outdoor sound treatment?

 

Thanks!

[kmart]

 

...and the perception of the neighbors is going to ultimately be at least as important to the county as the "hard" data the manager can supply.

 

 

Not in my experience; the perception of the neighbors, especially if they are 'connected' in the area, will trump all.

 

I've seen a couple clubs shut down because the (new) neighbors decided that's what they wanted; the clubs, who had been in business for years, and who DID keep volume within legally prescribed limits, had to shut the door. It didn't matter ONE BIT that the neighbors moved in knowing that the club had been there the whole time, either.

 

Good luck to the venue, but IME, they face an uphill battle.

[Vinny D]

Don't know how about you go recording SPL measurements that would actually be usefull, but I can tell you that here in my area I have never seen a venue be able to overcome noise issues of an outside venue when there have already been complaints.

All it will take is one neighbor to call in a complaint, doesn't matter if the noise is within required DB levels or not, it will get shut down.

[jwlussow]

We have used SPL meters and videotaped the meter during the show. We were able to play back the readings while the music was heard in the background. I pretty sure that there are software plugz that will do realtime SPLs while recording the data.

[twostone]

Treatment needs to be inside not outside and soundproofing cost a fortune. I know this from experience dealing with the god fearing neighbors from hell who would call the cops every time my band mates pulled up in my driveway.

 

I ask the cops what was the SPL considered noise pollution and he told it was at his discretion. Said if he pulled up in front of my house and rolled down the window and could hear the music then he's gonna bring it to a halt which is exactly 32ft from the house to the curb.

 

Pretty sure every county and city has their own ordinance on how they deal with noise pollution, but here my neck of the woods. It's how our law enforcement rolls. FWIW my neighbors finally moved year and half ago and haven't seen a cop since.

[dboomer]

I'd guess that where he puts the meter makes all the difference, and the perception of the neighbors is going to ultimately be at least as important to the county as the "hard" data the manager can supply.

 

A HUGE difference and one that the county probably has no idea about. Tell me what you want it to read and I'll tell you where to put it;)

 

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for outdoor sound treatment?

 

There is nothing better than sky (except maybe a vacuum). It is the perfect absorber of sound. You could put up walls and make the sound go around them. Probably the best and most cost efficient thing to do is to make sure that there are no openings (like doors and windows). You could install "sound locks" at the doors.

[twostone]

To me I think it's all about location, location. Having a club, bar, pub or what ever in a residential area that hires miced up bands is asking for trouble. Seen happen here my neighborhood that has a club 7 blocks away from my house and some developer bought up all the land around the place and started building tracks home and once the folks started moving in that pretty much ended the live band thing that it once catered to. Only live band I've seen on the Bill board was acoustic duo.

Sure miss the place because I had lot of great times there with my band.

[scarecrowbob]

You can record using a hand held meter, but that probably won't help much. Though as Don says, you can manipulate that a great deal. most people feel that if it is audible at all on their property, it is an intrusion.

 

How big a deal is time? Some places shut down the live music at a certain time, and that can go a long way to lowering complaints.

 

Also, it can help to be proactive-- if you live in a small enough place, it might not have a specific noise ordinance. You can probably write or rewrite something that most folks will be happy with. After all, that is what local ordinances are for.

[twostone]

 

You can record using a hand held meter, but that probably won't help much. Though as Don says, you can manipulate that a great deal. most people feel that if it is audible at all on their property, it is an intrusion. How big a deal is time? Some places shut down the live music at a certain time, and that can go a long way to lowering complaints. Also, it can help to be proactive-- if you live in a small enough place, it might not have a specific noise ordinance. You can probably write or rewrite something that most folks will be happy with. After all, that is what local ordinances are for.

 

 

How's that work with a infant baby screaming and crying because of the live music keeps it awake at 2:00 in the afternoon not mention the a frantic mother ? Infant babies can't tell time.

Like I said hiring live music in a residential area is opening a bad can of joo joo worms. I pretty sure residential zone will trump any thing a club owner can write up or think of to please the residents of the area. Cheaper for him to move. Then trying to sound proof the place or change the time when the music starts and ends.

[agedhorse]

If the neighbors complain REGARDLESS of the SPL reading, it's going to end up coming back on you one way or the other. There's no reasonable way to win something like this IME.

[Reson8tor]

Also, does anyone have any recommendations for outdoor sound treatment?

 

Got any access to excavation equipment? A sunken ampitheater is one way to control noise outdoors.

 

A friend of mine dug out a big artificial pond next to his house and a barn he uses for music jams. He moved all the excavated soil into a large earthen berm on the far side of the pond, as a sound barrier against his neighbors' property. It didn't stop all the noise complaints, but it cut down the frequency of complaining. Dirt is a great sound absorber; you just need lots of it, in the right place.

 

I'm guessing that isn't practical for this venue, and I'd agree with the others that this is likely to be a losing proposition if the neighbors are dead set against it. That said, if you want to try showing SPL levels, just put up a video camera on a tripod aimed at the meter, right at the neighbor's property line. They can only complain about what actually reaches their property.

[kmart]

 

If the neighbors complain REGARDLESS of the SPL reading, it's going to end up coming back on you one way or the other. There's no reasonable way to win something like this IME.

 

 

This is what I believe as well; the county may have told the venue they could grant a temp permit, but I'll bet large $ that no matter what db levels are deemed acceptable at what distance, even if the venue keeps well below them, where there were once complaints, there will continue to be complaints, and as soon a there are, that temp permit will be rescinded.

[scarecrowbob]

 

How's that work with a infant baby screaming and crying because of the live music keeps it awake at 2:00 in the afternoon not mention the a frantic mother?

 

 

Not a lot, but then no one said that this was the specific problem. Figuring out what the specific complaint is, and who is making it is probably a good first step.

 

I work in a tourist town where there are a bunch of very specific ordinances concerning noise.

 

A lot of them are in favor of venues, as the meat and potatoes of the town comes from tourists. It is a business decision and it affects a bunch of people either way you slice it.

 

However, the time restrictions on how much noise can be made when are a large part of the verbiage in the ordinance. For the same reason that folks are usually okay with me mowing my lawn on a a Saturday morning, but might have a problem with me doing construction at 2am, the our local ord. sets restrictions on when and how much noise.

 

In any case, we are all in agreement that there isn't really much that can be done noise control wise.

 

But that doesn't mean that folks can't ever come to an agreement about what is appropriate use of the world we all share, so that is where I'd start looking for a solution.

[DarinStevens]

Thanks. Yes, I agree it is probably a futile effort, but the manager asked me to help him do some research. To answer some of the questions and some additional info:

 

In town hall meetings, the community seems to overwhelmingly support the venue (I live about three blocks from there, so I am a neighbor). It is completely outside. Brick all around. Relatively noisy street out front. Noise ordinances in the county start enforcement at 10PM. Typically, live music was a 7-9PM or Saturday afternoon thing. I get the impression that the county would like to grant the permit (they are elected officials after all).

 

It sounds like that short of building walls (the manager built a back to the "stage" area), there's not much he can do in the way of sound absorbing materials that would make a big difference.

 

Assuming that the SPL readings would make a difference, does anyone know of a SPL monitoring device that records the data to internal memory, that could be dumped via USB to a computer and made available in some usable format for the county.

 

Again, I fully understand that it may be pointless. Thanks again for your help!

[twostone]

 

Not a lot, but then no one said that this was the specific problem. Figuring out what the specific complaint is, and who is making it is probably a good first step. I work in a tourist town where there are a bunch of very specific ordinances concerning noise. A lot of them are in favor of venues, as the meat and potatoes of the town comes from tourists. It is a business decision and it affects a bunch of people either way you slice it. However, the time restrictions on how much noise can be made when are a large part of the verbiage in the ordinance. For the same reason that folks are usually okay with me mowing my lawn on a a Saturday morning, but might have a problem with me doing construction at 2am, the our local ord. sets restrictions on when and how much noise. In any case, we are all in agreement that there isn't really much that can be done noise control wise. But that doesn't mean that folks can't ever come to an agreement about what is appropriate use of the world we all share, so that is where I'd start looking for a solution.

 

 

I agree 100% and is a great attitude to have, However, gotta make sure it's the loud music that's the core problem, and not the neighbors thinking the place is bad for the neighborhood. So their using loud noise as a excuse to get out of their neighborhood.

Not saying that's the case but I wouldn't rule it out.

[twostone]

Never mind town hall approves wish our town hall would approve the riverfront Casino sure would be sweet crate some jobs around here.

[lifeloverwg]

If you are seriously interested in trying to help it happen then I would suggest you get involved in proposing a noise ordinance specifically for the venue. Other outdoor venues have them and from what I've read they often include some kind of maximum acceptable SPL levels at the nearest neighbor or at the venue property line. They then have SPL levels that the band engineers or house engineers are restricted to at FOH and the levels are included in the performers contract such that if you exceed the limit too many times, the house takes over mixing and or shuts down the show with the band not getting paid. There have been a number of discussions about SPL restrictions over on PSW through the years that you could search for. The Hollywood Bowl has one I think, one of our local venues has one that they manage by what type of act they book and they shut down no matter what at 9:30. There's also a big concert in the UK at Glastonbury that has SPL limits attached to their permit and there are threads about it I know.

 

The real devil is in the details of a workable ordinance, such as where it is measured, how it is measured, at what weighting and do you measure peak or average levels etc.. I think that with enough research and preparation you could present something to the city council or whoever has jurisdiction that could help give them good information and backing to fall back on for doing what it sounds like they want to do. Often the sound that's to loud is just the sound someone doesn't like, so maybe gathering measurements from around things like High School football games, construction projects and other noisy but acceptable activities could give you some useful ammunition to start with. I imagine this is more involved than you probably hoped to get, but without something concrete and at least semi scientific in place, I think the others are right about one or two squeaky wheels being able to shut it down.

 

The one time police stopped by my bachelor pad back in the days of kegger parties, I went out to talk to him on the sidewalk about the noise complaint and when I pointed out that the street traffic was louder than the music and party noise he went away and didn't bother us any more. But if more people had called them I'm sure he would have been back with different results just to get them off his back.

 

Good luck, Winston.

[agedhorse]

The one time police stopped by my bachelor pad back in the days of kegger parties, I went out to talk to him on the sidewalk about the noise complaint and when I pointed out that the street traffic was louder than the music and party noise he went away and didn't bother us any more. But if more people had called them I'm sure he would have been back with different results just to get them off his back. Good luck, Winston.

 

I think you were way luckier than you realize

[DarinStevens]

Good ideas! The manager has been engaging the county for almost a year now working on the legal aspects. In fact he did a "sound check" a week or so ago in which the county reps came out and measured the levels. After some tweaking they seemed to be satisfied that there could be some agreement.

 

I'll definitely advise him to take some readings from the marching band at the high school (though that won't be possible until the fall). I can hear them from my house too, and they're more than twice as far away!

[Redbassman86]

I think you were way luckier than you realize

 

Last year we stretched out a Spandex screen (20x15) and watched Top Gun in my friends backyard. 4- SRX 4718's, 2 SRX4735s at front under the screen L&R, a SRX4735 at center and 2 K12s L&R rear. Cops were all too eager to come check out the "noise complaint". Must have had 3 cops come by. They all stayed for at least 15 minutes a piece, never made us turn it down.

[lifeloverwg]

I think you were way luckier than you realize

 

As you well know, things were different back in the 70's. At least around here, you could talk to a police officer about what changes he wanted to see in that kind of situation and as long as it looked like you were of age, were polite and seemed like you had things under control, they had more important things to worry about. But if kids or young adults did now what I and most of my friends did then, they'd wind up in jail. Some of those changes have been good and for good reason's, but not all of the changes have been good and plenty of them are for not so good a reason. Out of my old crowd, despite our fairly wild ways I can only think of a couple that ever got into serious trouble, whether it was with the law or substance abuse or whatever.

 

You can't even buy a keg around here anymore. We had one party back then where we went through 4 in one night at our house. That I think is a good change.

 

Winston

[Phil Clark]

We had issues at an outdoor venue in Grafton, Illinois. And when we were having issues I did two readings at the property line. The first was to measure ambient noise without the band playing, then to measure it again once we started playing. The difference at the property line was 1-2 db. The problem is that ambient noise is not organized. You don't "realize" that you are hearing Xdb. But as soon as it becomes organized (music) then it becomes something that you can discern from the ambient noise, and the mind says "Hey, thats music. If I can hear it, it must be too loud".

 

If you can get a hard ordinance passed with reasonable SPLs specified, and IF you can get officials to measure it, and IF you can get them to explain to those lodging a complaint that everything is within the legal specs, you will still have the police come and tell you that there are complaints and it has to be turned down. Complainers will complain, and the police will react to that. Not much you can do except turn it down and hope that the complainers stop complaining.

[The Chinese]

a Funny story about noise complaints... sort of off topic...

 

I've lived in a canyon/Hilly areas for abotu 7 years. In L.A. the noise ordinance reads 60dBA til 10pm, then 55dBa after til 6am. so basically silence. Also in L.A. if the cops come twice, it's very likely you may get your gear confiscated.

 

So I had a new neighbor move in up the hill (renters). They were musicians, a Drummer & Guitarist couple. They would regularly play until Midnight or later. I could barely hear it inside my house, and of course never complained, even tho they really sucked. *BUT* if I played, they would call the cops. note that our neighborhoos is FULL of amazing musicians, artists, etc. Very hippie style place. we all know each other and can knock on the door if things are an issue. The problem was the gal member of the couple was just a very nasty person, with nasty temperment.

 

So I get Lasik, and I'm at home recovering. Most people have a fairly easy time of that, but I was one of the few that had a very painful recovery... So I decide to crank up the Guitar for a bit. About 10 min. After that I lay down, try to relax. I drift off asleep, and then "BANG BANG BANG POLICE!" my eyes jolt open, and this LIFTS the FLAP of my Cornea OFF my eye, and puts me in sudden searing Pain!. I'm down on one knee, and "BANG BANG BANG POlice, OPEN UP!!!" I shout out, "BE there in a sec!" and stagger out to the living room.... in nothing but my underwear. I fling the door open.

 

COP: Yes, we've had a noise complaint

ME: To this house? (knowing it was my asshat neighbors)

COP: Yes, sir, have you been playing the Guitar at loud volumes?

 

and at this point, it all boils out, along with a wave of pain and nausea that agian drops me to one knee, with tears STREAMING out of my left eye...

 

COP: Sir, HAve you bee PLaying LOUD GUITAR? (He get's that authoritarian tone)....

 

and I snap

 

ME: DO I {censored}ING LOOK LIKE I'VE BEEN PLAYING LOUD {censored}ING GUITAR? I JUST HAD {censored}ING LASIK AND MY EYE FEELS LIKE I GOT STABBED!!! TALK TO THE ASSHOLES THAT LIVE UP THE HILLSIDE THAT {censored}IGN PLAY UNTIL MIDNIGHT 3 TIMES A WEEK

 

and I Getto my feet and just GLARE AT HIM.

 

I never saw a cop melt.

 

COP: OK, sir, sorry for the disturbance, HAve a nice day.

 

ME: No thanks to you. Slam Door.

 

Cop walks off, they never ever came again. Neighbor moves 3 months later, and never had another issue. now I don't advise taking that tact, but it worked for me!!!

 

Todd A.

[Phil Clark]

 

...my eyes jolt open, and this LIFTS the FLAP of my Cornea OFF my eye, and puts me in sudden searing Pain!.

 

 

Don't leave us hanging, finish the important part of the story. How is your eye now?

[The Chinese]

 

Don't leave us hanging, finish the important part of the story. How is your eye now?

 

 

hehehe.. It's fine.

 

After the cop took off, i spent the next hour trying desperately to focus on the piece of paper I had written the Dr's number on. I finally was able to reach him, and he agreed to meet me in the middle of the night! I found a friend willign to give up their Friday eve, and they gave me a ride down to teh DR. He fixed me up in about 15min. By next morning, I was fine. The severe pain were my tears going into the raw portions of my eye. NO damage was done, and I have excellent vision to this day.

 

With all that, I encourage people to go for it (lasik). Best thing I ever did. I'd go through that again without a doubt.

 

T