High Action? - take 2

[Freeman Keller]

On another thread with a similar title, forumite kr236rk asked for help comparing the action between two identical guitars. He said that he recently bought a new Yamaha Pacifica 112v but it feels different from an old one and asked us to help understand why. I suggested what we call "action" is the sum of a number of different specifications that all work together and that when I work on a guitar I like to measure all of them and understand how they are interrelated. I think this is an important part of doing a "setup". Kr236rk has purchased some tools and I have sent him a copy of the spreadsheet that I use to measure an instrument before I start work on it.

 

Unfortunately his first thread has deteriorated and I suggested that we start over again. I'm going to try to show each of the measurements, how I take them and maybe explain how I think they affect the playability of his guitar. The pictures will be from various different instruments - I'm going to just go thru my archives and pick ones that I hope shows what I'm talking about.

 

Please note that I do all of these measurements before I do anything to the guitar. Its got the original strings on it, tuned to pitch, and I basically do this for electrics, acoustics or anything else that I'm going to work on. The very first thing is the overall structural condition of the instrument - I make sure the neck pocket is tight, the neck angle relative to the bridge is OK, there are no cracks or any damage. Here is a strat with a loose neck, I'm using a feeler gauge to simply show that I can push it up inside the pocket

 

 

 

I look at all of the frets and note any that are worn, grooved or otherwise look bad. If the guitar seems to be dehydrated I won't work on it until that has been remedied. Not too much point in doing a lot of work on this guitar until the frets are replaced and the divots removed from the f/b

 

 

Next I play each string on each fret and note any buzzing or anything else that seems wrong. If a fret buzzes I take a short piece of something flat that will just span three frets and "rock" them. My little StewMac action gauge is pretty perfect - the long side will span the frets on the lower part of the board, the short side will work up the neck. I don't have a picture of this but I simply rest the side of the gauge on three frets sand see if it teeter-totters - if it does the middle fret is higher. I figure its OK to do this with relief in the neck (ie as I found it) because the affects will be very minor - if a frets rocks here I know I've got a problem. I do it for every fret on both sides of the neck - usually between strings 1 & 2 and 5 & 6. Any fret that rocks gets marked with a magic marker.

 

Next I put a capon on between the nut and first fret and hold down a string at the body joint (14 or 16 or 18 depending on the guitar). The tight string is a perfect straightedge and I try to slide the blade of a feeler gauge between the string and fret half way between the capo and body (frets 7 or 8 or 9). Looking thru all of my pictures I can't seem to find one of the - probably because its hard to hold down strings, push the feeler in and take a picture at the same time. The best I could find was this one - a standard business card is about 0.010 thick which is my upper limit -

 

 

and here I'm using a feeler gauge in conjunction with a straightedge (which isn't necessary but the liquid refreshment if very important)

 

 

Just for reference, here is another guitar with three business cards - that would be over 0.030 which is a huge amount of relief (and probably a very high action)

 

 

Anyway, I think its apparent what I'm trying to do - that measurement is "relief" and its critical to everything else we'll do.

 

Next I measure the height of each string above the first fret using feeler gauges, I want to just feel the blade slide in the gap without raising the string. There are no capos or anything on the guitar.

 

 

Likewise I measure the height of the strings above the 12th fret. I like the StewMac string action gauge

 

 

In this case I've got over 0.140 of action - that is very high. You can also use a machinists rule or even your feeler gauges by stacking enough blades to get the thickness you need

 

 

I measure each of the strings at the 12th fret - this tells me if they have the same radius as the neck. Some people try to actually set the radius at the bridge - I might check it with a radius gauge but I set it based on the 12th fret. I like to set the action so it gradually increases from the high E string to the low - maybe something like 0.060, 0.065, 0.070, 0.075, 0.080, 0.090. the other thing that I'll check here is do any strings fret out if I do a full step bend at the 7th and 12th frets. If so I'll note that - they will probably need a little more action when I actually do the setup.

 

I like to take all of my measurements in decimal inches to be consistent (and it easier to do the math) and I always measure action at the 12th fret (for the same reasons).

 

The other things that I do at this time is to play each string open, fretted at 12 and the 12th harmonic and note how they intonate. I might take a measurement of the location of the breakpoint of the saddle relative to the nut (ie the amount of compensation). I usually measure the strings with calipers (you would be surprised how many people don't known what they have on their guitars. If I'm going to disassemble a bridge or setup a trem I'll usually record the number and locations of the springs and the claw

 

 

OK, all of that stuff gets written down. I haven't turned a screw or even loosened the strings - it take 10 or 15 minutes and I have enough information to go ahead with the setup. Actually I need two more things - I like to watch the player play - what is her attack like, where does she play on the neck, how does she bend notes. And I want her to describe exactly what she was experiencing - what does she like or dislike.

 

The little strat-clone in most of these pictures came to me for a new nut. When I started taking the measurements I knew that it was pretty screwed up - almost every one of my measurements was way out of spec. I made the nut, did a thorough setup and the owner is amazed how well her guitar plays

 

 

 

[Freeman Keller]

I want to clarify one thing - some of those pictures aren't exactly correct - for example there are several showing measuring relief with strings off and using a straightedge. That doesn't take into consideration the tension on the neck which is pulling the relief in the first place. Those pictures were all that I had so I hope that in the text I've explained things well enough.

 

Maybe the next time I get an electric guitar in for a setup I'll just document the whole thing and do another thread. For now this will have to do with explainations and apologies.

[Les Paul Lover]

Thanks for taking the time to do this.

 

I quite want one of those string action gauge now..... I could find that very useful!!!!!!

[DeepEnd]

Freeman, I know it's traditional to measure action on an acoustic at the 12th fret and that you measure it at the 12th fret on an electric as well. However, Fender recommends measuring at the 17th fret: https://support.fender.com/hc/en-us/...itar-properly-. I normally use Fender's procedure on electrics. How much difference do you typically find or have you compared the two? I know your results undoubtedly speak for themselves but I'm curious.

[Freeman Keller]

I've never bothered to check. Every other reference that I've seen uses the 12th fret, it makes everything I do consistent and greatly simplifies the thinking process. I have Fender's specs in on the second page of the spreadsheet for reference but I think all of them are wonky, For example, they give the 17th fret action on both strings as 4/64 at 17, it would be slightly less at 12. Thats about 0.060 which is fine for the high E but too low (IMO) for the low one. I think 0.020 for the first fret can be lowered and I think 0.012 for the relief is way too high. Obviously milage will vary.

 

However, if it works for you do what works.

[Freeman Keller]

You can find copies for less on evil-bay but for 19 bucks I don't think you can go wrong

 

http://www.stewmac.com/Luthier_Tools/Types_of_Tools/Straightedges/String_Action_Gauge.html

[Freeman Keller]

One little footnote to this - that blue strat clone came to me for a new nut and because "its pretty hard to push the strings down", As I pointed out the action was obscenely high. The immediate reaction would be to start screwing down the saddle height adjustment screws, probably about as far as they would go. However by finding out the there was a structural issue (the neck pocket and angle) and that it had way too much relief, and fixing both of those the saddles ended up pretty close to acceptable and only took a little tweaking.

 

Don't forget a cardinal rule - the purpose of the truss rod is NOT to set the action but it will affect it. Set it first, then adjust the action, which will not change the relief.

[DeepEnd]

Fender specifies a range of actions based on fretboard radius, which I've never understood but the bass side spec is 4/64-5/64'' and the treble side is 3/64-4/64''. I normally target high on the bass side and low on the treble. I'd also expect, based on guitar geometry, for the action to be a tad higher at the 12th fret, especially with the amount of relief Fender recommends.

[DeepEnd]

I use stacked feeler gauges for measuring action but pretty much any good tool is fine as long as you use it properly. Ultimately, it's whatever gets you the right results.

[Emory]

I think I speak for all us when I say thanks for taking the time to do such a well thought out organized and detailed post. I bet those following your directions will be able to attest to at least 2 miracles required for sainthood status after you leave this earthly plane (check the action on that first!), may that day be long in arriving.

 

[Les Paul Lover]

Yes - and I like the simplicity of use on that one.

 

I will look for one with, hopefully, metric measurements.

[Les Paul Lover]

Ah! Found one, bought it.

 

Woop woop!

[Freeman Keller]

Thank you. I'm kind of throwing this together to help kr236rk get his guitar adjusted but it got me thinking. I have a strat coming into the shop in a few weeks for a refret (I put him behind several other guitars that need work first). I thought I would take a complete set of pictures from the evaluation stage, the refret (which is optional of course but it will include leveling and crowning), and then a complete setup. If I'm thinking about the pictures before hand I can probably get much better ones than those above.

 

Anyway, don't hold your breath but I think its a worthwhile thing to do and maybe it will encourage others to do some work on their little guitars.

 

Unless I die first, of course

[Les Paul Lover]

I've just received my string action gauge, measured my 4 guitars.

 

Both my LP and SG measured, at the 12th fret, 0.75mm for the high E, 1.25mm for the low E. (both measurements are said to be lower than normal?)

My vigier measured 1mm at high E, 1.5m at low E (low normal range).

My Aria Pro II RS X80 measured 1.5mm high and low E.

I have to raise the high E there as the 1st 5 frets are pretty worn, and strings fret out playing on the B and E strings first 3 frets.

 

Essentially, this tool is very useful for confirming what your set up us, and where it could possibly be improved.

 

It cost me £3 too - well worthwhile.

[Freeman Keller]

Glad you are finding the tool helpful. Your LP and SG are both very low but if they are buzz free and suits your style more power to you. I would probably shoot for more like 1.5mm high E and maybe 2 or a hair more on the low for a typical electric setup. Much lower than that I would fear fret out when doing bends.

[Les Paul Lover]

I was surprised too because I always considered my own set ups to be quite high. It never bothered me, as i like the way I've set them up.

 

But I wasn't expecting the readings to be that low on the 2 Gibsons.

As far as bending, it's all fine, no problems with those. Gibson have 12" compound radius (does it finish at 14 or 16"??) and the Vigier is 30cm radius (close enough to 12") so bending is absolutely fine.

 

If they were classic fenders with narrower neck radius, I'd probably have some problem there.

 

In any case, a big thank you to you Freeman, that's a very cheap tool/gauge to own, and a very useful one at that!!!!

[StratGuy22]

My action on my Ibanez is less that 1mm at the 12th fret, unfretted.