First gig where I have to provide sound

[Rick6]

Any help with the following would be greatly appreciated.

 

I'm a long time amateur guitarist, maybe semi-pro.

 

I just got a gig at a restaurant lounge where I'm responsible for the sound. This is new territory for me.

 

I'm planning to bring in a jazz quartet, guitar, keys, bass, drumset. I'm hoping to have some horn players and maybe a singer sit in. We expect to play at a higher volume level than wallpaper.

 

The room is a funny shape, sort of a 35x35 foot box with a long extension coming out of the side. The people in the extension can't see the band and probably want to talk. There might be 30-40 people max in the box-like area with the band, bar on one side.

 

The venue has two unpowered jbls (they didn't say a model number) attached to the wall. They take, according to the info supplied by the venue, 1/4 inch cables.

 

Most bands use a PA and mic at least some of the instruments, probably keys and flute (not drums), but I've seen at least one group sound decent without a PA at all, just their amps. I think the venue would probably prefer quieter to louder, meaning people 20feet away should be able to talk or shout over the music.

 

I have sat in with bands twice at this venue, and each time I was able to get enough volume with a Roland JC55 for my guitar. And that was with louder groups than mine.

 

So, what equipment have I got? Don't laugh. A Sennheiser 609 that I use for guitar. Can I use it for vocals, or should I just forget that?

 

I have the ZT Lunchbox. Supposedly 200 watts (somebody posted that it might really be 120 rms) I'm wondering if I could consider maybe driving one of the JBL's with it. If it's a good enough power amp, then I could borrow a little mixer and use that to power a single speaker. Do I get a 1/4 inch line level signal out of a typical mixer? Would I at least get something good enough to make announcements? Good enough for a singer?

 

Or, should I take a deep breath and give 25% of the band's fee (already not that great) to a sound guy? I'm willing to do that (and I understand that it's going to come out better if I do), but I'm also trying to have this gig make sufficient economic sense that the band would be willing to do it again.

 

Advice is something you ask for when you know the answer but you wish you didn't.

 

TIA,

 

Rick

[YeahDoIt]

If you've seen other bands play there without a PA then you probably don't need one. That is a small room and people want to talk.

[jwlussow]

Use your lunchbox for any vocals, flute, basically stuff that will have trouble being heard. Make sure you are professional in your performance. Keep the stage as quiet as possible to just get the coverage you need and you should be fine. Not the perfect solution but it should work if you guys know how to listen and play with each other.

[W. M. Hellinger]

 

The venue has two unpowered jbls (they didn't say a model number) attached to the wall. They take, according to the info supplied by the venue, 1/4 inch cables.

 

Humm... (scratching my chin and thinking about this)...

 

My knee-jerk reaction... I suspect JBL hasn't made a strictly 1/4" jack plate professional level cabinet since the era of the Cabaret series... approx. 30 years ago. The most likely candidate would be 4612's (just making a wild guess).

[WynnD]

 

If you've seen other bands play there without a PA then you probably don't need one. That is a small room and people want to talk.

 

 

People nearly always want to talk. I've walked out when I couldn't hold a conversation in a place. Happens a lot.

[Tomm Williams]

The only mic you have is a 609?, no other mics at all?. You didn't say but it sounds like you're not running monitors?. You can probably get a perfectly suitable mix with just vocals in the PA. If the volume stays reasonable and you get lots of cooperation, it shouldn't be too terribly difficult.

[Unalaska]

I'd definitly walk the room, get the model number of the JBL speakers. 1/4 only? could be older MR, maybe some control series install speakers, hard to say. The known factor would be walking in with a powered speaker, mixer and mic. That's all you need for this gig. And a 609 makes a really cool vocal mic, I like singing thru it.

[Rick6]

From the booker:

 

"The upstairs lounge stage area is equipped with two unpowered/passive JBL speakers and if you have a 2-channel powered amp and

[jwlussow]

If the mix is OK, there is nothing wrong with being considered a little too quiet. This is especially true in a place that small. It doesn't sound like headbangers hang out there anyway.

 

People can talk and order drinks without screaming. The patrons and the bartenders will appreciate that. Just be as loud as you need to be. Keep the vocals on top and make sure everybody listens to each other (seems like you already do that in rehearsals). You should be fine.

[RoadRanger]

4) There's a risk that we'll get a complaint that we aren't loud enough. How often does that ever happen?

It really amuses me when a band's one or two "followers" bitch at me about that when I have multiple other folks coming up to me thanking me for not being stoopid loud like all the other bands they've seen in that venue . But - I'm sure I'd get more work catering to the former .

[abzurd]

You can almost bet they are JBL "Soundfactor" or JRX. Some of the Soundfactors had 1/4" only. The line was replaced by the JRX due to some name dispute with another manufacturer, if I recall correctly. the JRX have both 1/4" and Speakons. It's likely the venue either doesn't know what a Speakon is or, because they are "attached to the wall", probably already have 1/4" cables connected and are just hanging down where you can access the cable.

 

If this is the case the speakers best use is for firewood, but if you can keep them from being pushed too hard you can probably get output that's not offensive.

[Rick6]

There's some DJ gear at the back of the stage that we are not allowed to use. I assume that the hanging JBL speakers are used by the DJ, but I've been wrong before.

 

The bands I've seen use PA's there have brought in another two speakers on stands. I can find out if the JBL's sound any good. I appreciate the input about the likely age and quality of those speakers. Without it, I'd have assumed they were ok.

[abzurd]

Age wise, there is a good chance they are relatively recent. JBL JRX are in production now. The speakers could be 3 months old or 25 yrs old. If you knew the model you'd have a better idea. As important though is how high up on the JBL food chain they are. JBL makes some very good stuff (SRX VRX), but also some real junk (JRX).

[Shaster]

Horn players.... do you mean trumpet players? Don't let them anywhere near a mic in that room You might need a little sax if there are drums - emphasis on might. Vocals for sure.

 

I do a fair bit of those gigs, and the common thread seems to be to keep it quiet. So keep an eye on people talking. If they're leaning in to talk, it's time to turn down.

[Rick6]

The "leaning in" thing is a good tip. I hadn't thought of that. Thanks.

 

I don't expect a trumpet player. One of the "horns" is chromatic harmonica, which is quieter than a singer and therefore requires amplification, although he may bring his own. One of the sax players will drown out the rest of us even without amplification. If I had a sound sink, I'd let him play into that. The other sax player is much quieter, although still plenty loud.

 

I tried out the sennheiser 609 into the Lunchbox into a mesa boogie guitar speaker cab (12 inch black shadow, 8 ohm). Aside from discovering a dire need to register in a remedial feedback management class, I wasn't all that impressed with either volume or sound.

[Unalaska]

Any mic will sound like crap through a guitar amp. They are made for the guitar, not full range like vocals are.

[DBR]

Are you able to use the installed system? If not, I would suggest you rent a small PA. This should include vocal mics, and monitors. Anything else might not need to be miked. I would hook up other mics, if necessary. Guitarists (no offense) have a tendency to be the loudest instrument in the room, even over any horns, keep your amp at a low volume, mic it if needed. Horns are not usually miked in a small room. You might want to run an overhead just to make the drums present. The PA should be at a very low volume, too. No need to be loud but need to be clear.

[agedhorse]

Where are you located?

[Dogoth]

 

There's a risk that we'll get a complaint that we aren't loud enough. How often does that ever happen?

 

 

Almost never.

[Rick6]

 

Where are you located?

 

 

This gig is in San Francisco. I'm in the East Bay.

[Rick6]

The kb player, a pro who has played there several times, says that the hanging passive speakers belonging to the venue are good enough. She thinks we can do it without a PA, but it will sound better with one. She says that using one of the two hanging speakers will produce unbalanced sound. I wonder. They're probably 12 feet apart.

 

 

If I have to pay for sound, I'll end up working for free.

 

I'm well aware of the dilemma. I can cheap out and sound bad, or make no money and sound better.

 

My current solution: cobble something together and play quietly. Run kb, a little guitar and vocal mic (mostly for announcements) thru the PA, just to fill out the sound a bit and spread it around. The drummer will be loud enough, I expect. I hope to have some musician friends sit in, so maybe they'll be able to help me adjust the PA as needed.

[agedhorse]

 

This gig is in San Francisco. I'm in the East Bay.

 

 

Don't know anybody cheap over in that area. That's a tough market to work in. There's folks in the valley who provide sound for less than minimum wage, including the gear... can be the way to go sometimes where the hassle isn't worth doing it yourself.

[Rick6]

 

Don't know anybody cheap over in that area. That's a tough market to work in. There's folks in the valley who provide sound for less than minimum wage, including the gear... can be the way to go sometimes where the hassle isn't worth doing it yourself.

 

 

Thanks, I appreciate the thought.

 

One aside ... I suggested to the pianist that we play at a level similar to a recent jam session. She said, "oh no, we shouldn't be that loud", suggesting we could get by without a PA, although a PA would be better.

 

I later asked the drummer, who played the same jam session, about it, and she said "the crowd won't hear us". She thought the PA was essential.

 

So, the drummer thinks it needs to be louder ...

[lifeloverwg]

 

Thanks, I appreciate the thought. One aside ... I suggested to the pianist that we play at a level similar to a recent jam session. She said, "oh no, we shouldn't be that loud", suggesting we could get by without a PA, although a PA would be better. I later asked the drummer, who played the same jam session, about it, and she said "the crowd won't hear us". She thought the PA was essential. So, the drummer thinks it needs to be louder ...

 

 

Drummers always think that it needs to be louder. ;-)

 

Deal with what is and use what is there, put vocals and any thing else that doesn't have enough stage level into the PA, like acoustic guitar, flute or other softer instruments and adjust the stage levels of the rest to match.

 

Have fun, pay attention and learn what to do better or what you might do differently the next time and have some more fun. Things should work out just fine, for decades, people played gigs like you are describing with no PA what so ever.

 

Good luck, Winston.

[Rick6]

Developments.

 

The bassist has a Mackie SRM 350, mics, a mixer (don't know which one) and stands.

 

His system does not have reverb. I'm wondering if I can use my Korg PX5D to add reverb to one mic?

 

If I use the input for guitar (passive pickup works fine) will that work? Are the levels comparable? If I can't plug the mic into the Korg (and the Korg into the mixer), how do I get reverb on the vocal mic and not the kb? I think I know the answer -- which is I need to find out the model of the mixer and figure out my options. Or, is there something any mixer will do?

 

Also, is the one speaker adequate for this room (a bar maybe 35x35 feet, maybe a little bigger)? It will be used for announcements, maybe a singer sitting in, and reinforcement of keys and maybe guitar.

 

I can't tell you how much I appreciate the help. The only thing I know about this subject is that I'm absolutely clueless.

 

But, I want to make this work, so that I can pay the musicians decently and have ok sound.