Center fills---------how do YOU do them

[Tomm Williams]

In a recent post I was asking about Yorkville speakes in a centerfill role. With a few answers from Andy and others, it occurred to me that there's a bit more to it than throwing up a set of speakers at reduced volume. I don't recall this ever being discussed. How do you guys approach center fills? At what point do you deem them necessary, any FX, speakers used, processing,power levels?

[dennis a]

 

In a recent post I was asking about Yorkville speakes in a centerfill role. With a few answers from Andy and others, it occurred to me that there's a bit more to it than throwing up a set of speakers at reduced volume. I don't recall this ever being discussed. How do you guys approach center fills? At what point do you deem them necessary, any FX, speakers used, processing,power levels?

 

 

Define "center fills"

[Tomm Williams]

Situation I'm concerned with is when the audience encroaches on the stage and the dispersion pattern is going past them.

[RoadRanger]

He probably means the two speakers either side of the monitor in this picture - there was a total of 4 or 5:

 

Running them off the main feed is better than not having any if they are needed. Better is off a matrix, a post fade aux or even a group (possibly in that order of preference?). You usually want the guitars cut out of that mix as the on-stage amps are usually plenty up close in the middle.

[dennis a]

 

Situation I'm concerned with is when the audience encroaches on the stage and the dispersion pattern is going past them.

 

 

The two options are Lipfill with small speakers along the front edge of the stage or a larger speaker on each side of the stage almost crossfiring. Lipfill are much easier to align to the rest of the sound system. Sometimes, due to sight lines and the speakers available, crossfiring is necesary. I set levels by ear. Centerfills are necesary when there is seating (or standing) in the dead spot center stage OR when there is a BE with the act performing who will ask for them whether they are necessary or not.

[Tomm Williams]

He probably means the two speakers either side of the monitor in this picture - there was a total of 4 or 5: Running them off the main feed is better than not having any if they are needed. Better is off a matrix, a post fade aux or even a group (possibly in that order of preference?). You usually want the guitars cut out of that mix as the on-stage amps are usually plenty up close in the middle.

 

 

Yeah, those situations.

[dennis a]

He probably means the two speakers either side of the monitor in this picture - there was a total of 4 or 5: Running them off the main feed is better than not having any if they are needed. Better is off a matrix, a post fade aux or even a group (possibly in that order of preference?). You usually want the guitars cut out of that mix as the on-stage amps are usually plenty up close in the middle.

 

Yeah, that's lipfill with what looks like EAW JF80s. If I am working in a theater with a 50' stage I try to keep the count to 3...I find odd numbers with one speaker center is a happier thing to align.

[RoadRanger]

The two options are Lipfill with small speakers along the front edge of the stage or a larger speaker on each side of the stage almost crossfiring.

Third option is flown over the middle of the stage. - quite common.

[Bobby1Note]

For smallish stages, will a side-wash set-up work? I recently went to a show where the main rig was a d&b audiotechnik line array (5 box per side J-hang) with four massive d&b subs (2 per side), and they used d&B sidewash speakers, but I didn't notice if they were also using center-fills..

[RoadRanger]

Yeah, that's lipfill with what looks like EAW JF80s. If I am working in a theater with a 50' stage I try to keep the count to 3...I find odd numbers with one speaker center is a happier thing to align.

This particular stage has a round lip so there is a lot of lip. Also the mains are line arrays flown about 15 feet in front of the lip so the fills have to cover all the way around. The FOH mix engineer didn't have the fills sounding anything like the mains EQ-wise . This was the Wolf Den at the Mohegan Sun Casino - I was camera #1 so didn't have anything to do with the mix.

[dennis a]

 

Third option is flown over the middle of the stage. - quite common.

 

 

I associate this with a L-C-R configuration which is a different animal than a lipfill or a side washed centerfill. The flown centerfill you refer to is usually designed to cover the entire house.

[dennis a]

 

The FOH mix engineer didn't have the fills sounding anything like the mains EQ-wise.

 

 

Was this good or bad?

[StratGuy22]

Most of my gigs, the stage is pretty much ground level. (or lower lol)

 

I run YX12's for monitors, and I'm thinking of getting another one for a front fill. Basically have it to the side of the center monitor, facing the crowd. I can give it it's own aux feed and just put some vocals into it. By using the same wedge as my monitors, they will be interchangeable.

 

[agedhorse]

Generally, lif or front fills will NOT be eq's the same because they are filling in things that are not present in that location. Generally, the polar pattern of the mains means that there's plenty (or too much) of everything below 250Hz, too much guitars, bass and sometimes cymbols. The eq of the fills will be such that they will be high passed so as not to add any more

 

In my venue, when I do use front fils, it's often just to add a little intelligilility to vocals, acoustic guitars and piano, and at times I will high pass as high as 500Hz because that's not lacking from the PA, and it's only the center 2 rows that I need to cover so the SPL at the 1M point may only be a max of 92- 95dB to keep up with the main PA. Of course, it depends on the show, the audience demographics and the type of music.

[Mogwix]

Depends. More often than not, I don't worry about it. I'll try to catch the edge of the stage with the mains but really, it's just not worth the time and effort to try and fill every nook and cranny of the venue... especially for cheap bar bands and such.

 

I only ever do this on big corporate gigs, where they're paying the kind of money to bring extra gear, and a console with matrices.

[RoadRanger]

I associate this with a L-C-R configuration which is a different animal than a lipfill or a side washed centerfill. The flown centerfill you refer to is usually designed to cover the entire house.

I've seen them angled down, either one or three up there on the front lighting truss. K8's aren't bad for that or lip fills if one is looking to use a common powered cab.

[RoadRanger]

Was this good or bad?

I should have said that the sound up close to the stage sounded nothing like the sound back in the line array's coverage zone. Definitely not loud enough and lacking the clarity of the mains. As AH said they didn't need more low end - mostly just the vocals quite a bit crisper. The side fills were lame too .

[Dogoth]

What Andy said ^^^. This is one of the instances where subgroups & matrix's can be handy. Usualy only some vocal clairity is needed (a lot depends on the stage volume).

 

Here's the tradeoff between flown or crossfired vs small apron speakers. The small apron speakers can have spotty coverage and are often blockedby the first few heads. The flown or crossfired speakers can add to feedback & phase issues on stage. SR is always tradeoff.

 

Both are very hard to get right because your ears are not usualy in the front row to adjust them during performance (an extreme example would be mixing for theatre in the round :-).

[agedhorse]

 

Both are very hard to get right because your ears are not usualy in the front row to adjust them during performance (an extreme example would be mixing for theatre in the round :-).

 

 

Theatre in the round is a tough animal in terms of coverage as well as volume in front. Usually, mains will be flown for sight line reasons and deck fills will be used to cover the first 5 or 6 rows and also to bring imaging down. I don't do very much in the round, I think the last time was some Bob Hope dates many years ago in ~10-15k seat arenas. Tough stuff, tough acoustics, older audiences with poor hearing makes it a challenge.

[B. Adams]

Technically when you run front fills you would EQ them so that they're filling in whatever is missing, delay them to line up with the mains, and run them off a matrix and only putting into them what you need. Depending on the situation, there may be several spaced across the stage, or just an extra speaker per side pointed toward the center of the front row.

 

In the real world, most of the guys I see come through just run them flat, no delay, with a full range main mix at whatever volume sounds about right. And when I say most of the guys do it that way, I mean pretty much all of them that I've worked with. Its not rocket science, although you can make it as close to it as you want, or just keep it simple.

[Shaster]

Depends. More often than not, I don't worry about it. I'll try to catch the edge of the stage with the mains but really, it's just not worth the time and effort to try and fill every nook and cranny of the venue... especially for cheap bar bands and such. I only ever do this on big corporate gigs, where they're paying the kind of money to bring extra gear, and a console with matrices.

 

That's basically my experience, except on the corporate gigs I don't get that involved.

 

Most of the singers I work with appear to be pretty deaf, consequently they like their monitors really loud, consequently there's a ton of vocals coming off of the stage. I have rarely needed center fills and when I do I can use my Yorkville e210's laying flat. But as I say, in my case it's hardly ever worth it. I don't do the sound sensitive Adrian Legg sort of shows - just medium loud party stuff, where the crowd is so drunk they wouldn't know a center fill if they puked in it! Which is another reason I try to refrain from using them.

 

Just call me "still waiting for the big time"

[agedhorse]

 

In the real world, most of the guys I see come through just run them flat, no delay, with a full range main mix at whatever volume sounds about right. And when I say most of the guys do it that way, I mean pretty much all of them that I've worked with. Its not rocket science, although you can make it as close to it as you want, or just keep it simple.

 

 

I have seen it both was as well. If you put the front fills near the main speakers, the delay issues pretty much go away but still most folks I work with at least want seperate eq and high pass out, and a seperate mix either off of a matrix or an aux and generally avoid putting things like guitars and drums into it. Sometimes, simple is no help at all.