Check out my new recording. its instrumental rock guitar.

[blue2blue]

 

I would like to hear some recently recorded stuff that is in tune. That is the "stuff" that needs improvement most. If it were me I'd be desperate at this point to show that my previous post was an aberration, and that I can play in tune. Go for it.

I only ever had two music teachers (I did drop out of a beginning piano class in the 80s) and both of them told me I had no musical talent whatsoever as they were firing me as a pupil -- but I suspect if I'd had you for a teacher at some point, I would either be a lot better now or have quit in tears long ago.

 

Tuning issues well-covered, I think I'd like to see mbengs1 exploring some of the arrangement and mix issues Craig laid out. In fact, I'm going to go back and reread those suggestions and put them to use the next time I try a guitar instrumental. I'm almost always disappointed by mine. (But at least they keep me from singing. )

[mbengs1]

Ok. this is another song. its a rocker. its called 'outside in' inspired by the van halen song 'in and out' off the for unlawful carnal knowledge album.

 

https://soundcloud.com/marleybengson/outside-in

[RockViolin]

I only ever had two music teachers (I did drop out of a beginning piano class in the 80s) and both of them told me I had no musical talent whatsoever as they were firing me as a pupil -- but I suspect if I'd had you for a teacher at some point, I would either be a lot better now or have quit in tears long ago.

 

Tuning issues well-covered, I think I'd like to see mbengs1 exploring some of the arrangement and mix issues Craig laid out. In fact, I'm going to go back and reread those suggestions and put them to use the next time I try a guitar instrumental. I'm almost always disappointed by mine. (But at least they keep me from singing. )

 

The tuning issue is covered, except that mbengs1 has given absolutely no indication that he is at all aware of it, or that he has any desire to do better. No acknowledgement at all. That has me zeroed in more than usual, I think.

 

I've had some tough teachers. That jazz study I spoke of earlier. There was an ensemble performance where I played an essentially unheard solo. Just wasn't loud enough. Nobody's fault but mine. The professor aired me out in front of everybody afterwards and said, "Tom, what happened? Couldn't even hear you. Don't let it happen again! I have repeated those words in bold here in this thread for the first time since he said them to me 28 years ago. It's an absolute shame to play that well and put a lot of effort into things and then have such a flaw. When it's so flat I'm not feeling the ground, I'm waist deep in it. Perhaps it is my shortcoming that it is a stumbling block. Violinists are intonation freaks, if anyone is. There's that too.

 

I admire you, Craig and everyone else that can ignore it and consider other aspects. But, I don't think I'm out of line here, or that I'm being particularly mean. It's just paramount to me that the intonation be better, and it would be nice to see some acknowledgement from mbengs1 on that issue, and if it isn't better the next post won't even get 1 minute from me.

 

Yes, I've had teachers tear me up too. I think the line may have been crossed a time or two. Most of the time, by far, I had it coming, I was better for it, and good things came of it.

 

 

[Anderton]

\

I admire you, Craig and everyone else that can ignore it and consider other aspects. But, I don't think I'm out of line here, or that I'm being particularly mean.

 

Not mean at all, tuning matters. Out of tuneness is the gift that keeps on giving - it bothers you more and more every time you hear it.

 

As to ignoring it and considering other aspects, as tuning had already been covered, I figured arrangement suggestions would be a good idea.

 

I highly recommend listening to really good DJs to learn more about arranging. It's a very specific type of arranging (as opposed to, say, a string section arrangement) and is more involved with tension/release and transitions.

 

[RockViolin]

Ok. this is another song. its a rocker. its called 'outside in' inspired by the van halen song 'in and out' off the for unlawful carnal knowledge album.

 

https://soundcloud.com/marleybengson/outside-in

 

OK, I listened to all your songs, all the way through. "Feel The Ground" wasn't really your best foot forward, IMO. This one is certainly better. But then "Death Tantrum"-some of the bends and pulls, whatever, that finish on the upper string, again, quite flat. Perhaps it was recorded in the same session as your first song.

 

Tune carefully. Guys with a lot less up their sleeve than you do it. Maybe check the setup on your axe? It's instrumental hygiene. Listening critically is a super important part of being your own producer. But it's also just as important as a player, as a musician in a group. Some people might go too far in that regard, but I don't think you need to worry about that just yet. .png' alt='16x16_smiley-wink.png.ac1518ec0dabe458f31c1303ed9ec588.png' alt='smiley-wink'>.png'>

 

 

 

[RockViolin]

 

Not mean at all, tuning matters. Out of tuneness is the gift that keeps on giving - it bothers you more and more every time you hear it.

 

As to ignoring it and considering other aspects, as tuning had already been covered, I figured arrangement suggestions would be a good idea.

 

I highly recommend listening to really good DJs to learn more about arranging. It's a very specific type of arranging (as opposed to, say, a string section arrangement) and is more involved with tension/release and transitions.

 

Thanks Craig! I don't mean to be mean. I suppose it could be seen that way though. It's my first violin teacher's fault, for starters. I was 5, and had been playing for a month or 2 and he tells me in a lesson that if I don't keep my left thumb from sticking up so far he's gonna bring a pair of scissors next time and cut some of it off. I'm likely traumatized for life and my parents, colleagues of said teacher are just standing there laughing away.

 

Then there was the time another violin teacher/conductor told some folks behind me, "If you can't do that, maybe you should just go sell shoes."

 

And to the 2nd violin section, this beauty, "You all play like pigeons."

 

Now that's mean! But we all about died laughing. He had great zingers.

 

 

And ignore was the wrong word-set aside, maybe? At the time it seemed a bit like talking arrow trajectories with an Indian that can't shoot straight, or room design on a homemade house with nary a square joint. Having heard more, I think mbengs1 will be alright. I'm not sure he/she has even seen my posts, but hopefully the message got through from someone.

 

Some of the best players I've known or heard tuned rigorously, some obsessively.

 

OK, probably done with the tuning police thing.

 

 

 

[WRGKMC]

I played Violin as a young kid before switching to guitar. Pitch is all about having acute ears and proper finger placement to match what you hear.

I think allot of artists are handicapped by relying too heavily on electronic tuners and letting the tuner tell them what's in pitch instead of letting their ears tell them. I know many artists who cant tune a guitar by ear and therefore cant detect their instrument drifting out of pitch. It drives me nuts to play with them because It makes my instrument sound out of tune.

 

Playing Fretless instruments teaches to manipulate the strings to properly pitch the notes. I continued to do this switching to guitar. If I hear notes off when playing I automatically compensate to re-pitch the notes. I may pull or push on the neck, change finger pressure, or pull on strings end to end to get those notes in pitch. It's a god send when I get periods of perfect string pitch and chords sound like a single note without string beating.

 

Of course a guitar uses tempered tuning so its impossible to have all frets in perfect pitch, but when its real close you can ignore the imperfections and just play. I was real good at playing violin in an orchestra as a kid. I wish I had kept up on it, but I found guitar allot more fun to play. I did buy a fiddle years later and I can play some basic stuff decently. I know how many hours would be needed to get my chops in really good shape. I find it fairly painful and uncomfortable to play for long periods at my age so I limit my playing to recording where I can do multiple takes or backing up acoustic guitar players.

 

The whole thing about tuned and intonated guitars recording is very important, even more important then the sound quality. People can ignore a poor fidelity playback fairly easily but pitch problems are tied to the performance. Improved sound quality often makes the problem even more apparent.

[mbengs1]

 

OK, I listened to all your songs, all the way through. "Feel The Ground" wasn't really your best foot forward, IMO. This one is certainly better. But then "Death Tantrum"-some of the bends and pulls, whatever, that finish on the upper string, again, quite flat. Perhaps it was recorded in the same session as your first song.

 

Tune carefully. Guys with a lot less up their sleeve than you do it. Maybe check the setup on your axe? It's instrumental hygiene. Listening critically is a super important part of being your own producer. But it's also just as important as a player, as a musician in a group. Some people might go too far in that regard, but I don't think you need to worry about that just yet. .png' alt='16x16_smiley-wink.png.ac1518ec0dabe458f31c1303ed9ec588.png' alt='smiley-wink'>.png'>

 

 

 

you listened to all of it? i better take out some of the older stuff because i rerecorded most of them. i did not use the tuner when i recorded the rhythm guitar so it is slightly sharp. i have to tune my guitar to the song instead of using the tuner. so its a bit of a hassle.

[Anderton]

Not to pitch you, but...I gotta say I've become addicted to the Gibson automatic tuning thing. I hit strings pretty hard (I use a thumbpick) and so constantly have to touch up my tuning. With the G FORCE, which is the best realization of the concept so far, I can even touch up between verses while recording.

 

Of course I know how to tune a guitar, I just can't tune all six strings simultaneously in a few seconds. While there's a certain amount of beneficial ear training that happens when you tune a guitar, if you're past that stage it's really nice to be almost on the same footing as keyboards in terms of not going out of tune. If you do a lot of bending and whammy bar stuff that's brutal on strings, consider checking out one of the Gibsons with automatic tuning.

 

/pitch

[UstadKhanAli]

 

i did not use the tuner when i recorded the rhythm guitar so it is slightly sharp. i have to tune my guitar to the song instead of using the tuner. so its a bit of a hassle.

 

You usually don't tune a guitar to a song unless the song is already out of tune, right?

 

User a tuner. Tune accurately and often.

 

Sorry to beat this into the ground, but I've recorded a lot of bands, including a bunch of 19 year old kids who down-tune, and I always get on people about tuning.

[blue2blue]

When I was engineering young bands, tuning was always a huge hassle. It was the early 80s and these kids were the first generation raised on cheap electronic tuners.

 

But the tuner says its in tune!

 

Words I never want to hear again.

 

 

 

It's a guitar -- it's never in tune.

[WRGKMC]

Do the tuners only work for open tuning? If so I suppose set up would still require an additional tuner for setting intonation.

[WRGKMC]

I have maybe 6 different tuners but I was too curious and bought another. Found one of those TC Polytuners yesterday for $50.

 

I'm curious to see how well it does for tuning a guitar with a floating whammy which has typical issues when you tune one string up, the others tune down a bit. May save some time being able to see all strings at the same time and target the problem strings instead of going through all individually to find which are sharp or flat.

 

I also want to see how well it does on setups. Even non whammy guitars can have issues with changing relief as you do intonation setups, especially on some of the slim necked guitars I have.

 

I do like may Sabine rack tuner because its got a built in tone generator. You can scroll through the pitches and check for string beating along the entire neck, not just the octaves.

 

Even with all the technology to help, there is often a difference in string pitches playing chords vs playing single note leads. I often have to re-tweak an instrument to sound its best playing leads over the chords I just tracked.

 

I think there may be some pseudo science involved there too, kind of a Doppler/Dynamic thing unique to stringed instruments. Louder notes can sound lower in pitch vs softer notes, and strings picked hard can twang sharp in comparison to strings plucked lightly.

 

Someone playing clean usually digs in allot harder and the strings tend to twang sharp. Playing clean chords without compression often causes sharper notes then a tuner registers. Then when you add driven lead notes, often times picked lightly over the chords, you can get sour notes, even though the guitars were properly tuned and intonated to begin with.

 

I used to find it odd when I used to play chords to a song, and then have to sharpen the notes slightly to play leads in pitch. Its easy to mistake the strings going flat from slippage after playing chords because that occurs too.

 

I think when I bought my Steinberger with double ball strings the truth really came into view. I could tune to pitch then just hold the strings, and the heat of my hands it lowered their pitch. Then I'd blow on the strings and watch them go back up in pitch while watching the tuner. Ever since then I make sure my strings are warmed up before I tune, and I'll play parts through till I know the instrument is acclimated before final tuning and tracking. After that I simply use my ears to fine tune the small stuff as needed.

 

I don't always know nor care if the entire song is off in pitch a little, It only matters if the instruments are in tune with each other. I may begin with a tuner but I'll compromise to get the best pitch and not just blindly let a tuner tell me what's right because it rarely is unless its strictly open or an octave. That tuner is only good for the first track. If strings slip in pitch after that first chord, tuning your instrument for the second track is not going to be the benchmark you want it to be.

 

Some may disagree with that and I am taking into account different instruments with say thicker necks and thicker strings may hold pitch much better but give it a few days, strings get older temp and humidity change, picking up that instrument again a week later can have all kinds of pitch variations with strings bent or worn at frets, Oxidation, dirt making then dull and lifeless.

 

In a noisy situation or silent tuning, surely tuners are a god send, but again, they are simply an aid not a substitute. Its easy to trust what you see over what you hear. Always let your ears and what's supposed to be between those ears be the final judge.

[philboking]

I seems to me to lack dynamics. It has a good solid groove, but the rhythm section sounds it exists only to be background for the lead player to shred. It would be more interesting if those parts also showed some artistry. For example, do a section using 'inside chords' or some inverted chords or a fingerpicked style instead of all straight barre chords.

 

It also sounds a bit 'over quantized' - - everything is unnaturally tight. The drums are somewhat buried and indistinct in the mix.

 

If this is your first effort, it is pretty respectable. If it's your 100th, you aren't learning from the first 99...

[RockViolin]

Just fyi. When an orchestra, be it 45 or 105 people, goes on stage there may be only one tuner, small enough to fit on 1rst oboe's music stand. The concertmaster might have one, (I never did) and a few other winds just to check beforehand so they're in the ballpark. (It's a very small park btw.) The concertmaster comes out, he indicates to the oboe to play an A. 440, maybe442 -whatever. But everyone has a few seconds to maybe a minute to zero in on that A and tune to it, with their ears. If you blow that...your troubles have just begun.

 

 

There was a string quartet coach that once said to us, "I can tell how good someone is by the way they tune." I sorta took that to heart. And when I got to violin pieces like the Chaconne with four note chords, and *perfect* fourths and fifths, well, it took a lot of work to get them somewhere near perfect. Tuning well was imperative.

 

So anyway, there was this gal, an electric violinist who shall remain nameless, but who took out a full page add in famous r 'n r mag- advertising a showcase in Manhatten, and I was curious. My roadie buddy and I drove 9 hours out there just to check it out, have some fun. We're sitting in the club and said buddy says to me, "So how long is it going to take you to tell if she's is any good?"

 

Naturally, I told him, "I can tell if she's any good by the way she tunes." .png' alt='16x16_smiley-wink.png.ac1518ec0dabe458f31c1303ed9ec588.png' alt='smiley-wink'>.png'>

He laughs, jumps off his stool and runs in the band's dressing room. He comes back just a minute later and tells me that he just told her that I said that.

 

 

She had a funny smile on her face, and seemed a bit self conscious when she came out- but she tuned well, considering.

 

The moral of the story? Careful what you tell a roadie!

[KB Gunn]

Maybe people don't know this, so:

 

On December 26, 1985, Nelson and the band left for a three-stop tour of the Southern United States. Following shows in Orlando, Florida, and Guntersville, Alabama, Nelson and band members took off from Guntersville for a New Year's Eve extravaganza in Dallas, Texas.[105] The plane crash-landed northeast of Dallas in De Kalb, Texas, less than two miles from a landing strip, at approximately 5:14 pm. CST on December 31, 1985, hitting trees as it came to earth. Seven of the nine occupants were killed: Nelson and his companion, Helen Blair; bass guitarist Patrick Woodward, drummer Rick Intveld, keyboardist Andy Chapin, guitarist Bobby Neal, and road manager/soundman Donald Clark Russell. Pilots Ken Ferguson and Brad Rank escaped via cockpit windows, though Ferguson was severely burned.

[KB Gunn]

For all the solos Eric Clapton did, he's probably most remembered for the hook in "Sunshine of Your Love."

 

Funny that Clapton's most famous lead is Sunshine of your Love. He is quoted as saying that the opening few measures of that lead are the melody of "Blue Moon"

 

 

[Anderton]

 

Funny that Clapton's most famous lead is Sunshine of your Love. He is quoted as saying that the opening few measures of that lead are the melody of "Blue Moon"

 

That hit me immediately when I heard the song...interesting he acknowledged it.

 

[philboking]

I like the Outside-In song quite a bit better - - - some interesting changes between sections, more dynamics, lots of things are better. Great performance.

 

It still sounds like it was mixed by a guitar player - - the drums could come up a couple dB, the bass could use some midrange or high-end boost to give it definition. The whole mix could use a bit of brightening (or maybe some EQ cut at 180-230 Hz) to lessen the muddiness of the mix.

 

The second half of this song (bass 'solo') doesn't belong; it sounds like a raw take. I can only assume it was included by mistake.

 

Keep up the good work!

[onelife]

 

That hit me immediately when I heard the song...interesting he acknowledged it.

 

I noticed that about Clapton.

 

When I was starting out I was a big Cream fan. I read an interview where he said "why listen to me when you can listen to BB King?" so I went out and bought some BB King records - a profound moment in the development of a young guitarist.

[mbengs1]

What do you think if my tone? i'm using a cheap and kinda old (new as of 2001) digitech multi effects. i'm using the jcm900 amp model with compressor + equalizer and delay for my basic rhythm and lead tone. i'm thinking of another multi effects to improve my tone. i was considering the boss me-80 or line6 pod hd500x. i'm not serious though, my current tone is good enough for me.

[philboking]

I hate to hit you with a cliche, but it ain't so much what you have, it's what you do with it. Truer now than it ever was.

[mbengs1]

Thanks for the comments. Here's another one called 'surfing with the human'. coz it was inspired by joe satch's 'surfing with the alien'. i hope its alright.

 

https://soundcloud.com/marleybengson...with-the-human

 

its another rock song. i'm not sure if its as good as outside in but it's a decent take for me.

[RockViolin]

Thanks for the comments. Here's another one called 'surfing with the human'. coz it was inspired by joe satch's 'surfing with the alien'. i hope its alright.

 

https://soundcloud.com/marleybengson...with-the-human

 

its another rock song. i'm not sure if its as good as outside in but it's a decent take for me.

 

Marley, Marley, Marley.

 

The drums are buried, and seem to fall off in areas, time wise. Were they recorded to the rhythm guitar?

So then the groove doesn't slam and just falls apart here and there. And the lead is way forward in the mix, and it can't launch from such iffy rhythm underneath. You're top heavy. Me? I like to have the snare singing out loud and clear and then I can tee off on it, or at least have it there as a sort of a marker buoy when I decide to go for a swim. If I can't hear a thing but the 2&4 snare and what I'm playing, I'm still going to be ok. You might even practice rocking to just 2&4 snare. I think it would be good for you.

 

Seems like your guitar is better in tune, but there are still some issues.

 

You've got some licks, but I think you should try to create more context for them, so that they are part of an overall story, and not just isolated incidents. And also think about maintaining the energy, long notes that are just wavering don't do enough and don't propel you forward, generally.

 

Most of us stand on the shoulders of our heroes. And I think it's fine to do what you are doing. I did plenty of it myself. But at some point, you would want to be you. This track borrows a little too closely for me. I'd like to hear you fix continuing mix issues, and address some other key points that have been made by myself and others. It's not the time to be overly concerned with your tone. There are more pressing matters to attend to.

 

 

[mbengs1]

 

Marley, Marley, Marley.

 

The drums are buried, and seem to fall off in areas, time wise. Were they recorded to the rhythm guitar?

 

 

 

 

The drums were recorded with the rhythm guitar at the same time. The drums were recorded the same way as the other songs. i don't know why the recorded drums changes in every song.