CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted May 8, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted May 8, 2015 True Craig, but the $50 isn't really the issue. It's about liability. So if the singer drops a $500 microphone into the horn flare of a $1000 monitor and does catastrophic damage to the wedge and destroys the microphone, is that enough to take to small claims court? In the context of this thread, the $50 is the issue at hand....the amount that's too small to warrant a lot of upset and kvetching, but is enough to eat into an already small "profit"...assuming there's any profit at all (which is a matter for another thread). That's the dilemma a lot of us face a lot more than a really large monetary loss, which should be covered by either your insurance, the venue's insurance, or both. If you're insured, the onus of "going after" a negligent party is shifted from you to the insurance company. They get to make the decision as to what $$$ level is "enough" to warrant legal action. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted May 8, 2015 Members Share Posted May 8, 2015 In the context of this thread, the $50 is the issue at hand....the amount that's too small to warrant a lot of upset and kvetching, but is enough to eat into an already small "profit"...assuming there's any profit at all (which is a matter for another thread). That's the dilemma a lot of us face a lot more than a really large monetary loss, which should be covered by either your insurance, the venue's insurance, or both. If you're insured, the onus of "going after" a negligent party is shifted from you to the insurance company. They get to make the decision as to what $$$ level is "enough" to warrant legal action. The thread is the concept of being "left holding the bag" with acknowledgement that it happens often enough to be a problem. The $50 is just what the bag contained this time around. I agree insurance is a good idea, but so too is a contract speaking somehow to damage liability. It's one of those "make your own luck" things. If "the bag" often contains microphones being hit by sticks then just put in the contract "break a mic with a stick and you bought the mic"... or the drummer is responsible for bringing his own snare mic. In absence of that drummer will get the cheapest, most beat up disposable thing we can find that will attach to a mic clip. The contract can be an evolving document that's amended as you learn what you want out of it. Edit it as desired and see what sticks. And Mark, as much as you want micro-manage every little thing so nothing goes wrong ever, it's simply not practical. It's something I struggle with as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cappttenron Posted May 8, 2015 Members Share Posted May 8, 2015 Hard to make money at the low end. Once I had two brand new 57s walk away at a show. I ended up eating that even though I had an idea who snatched them but couldn't prove anything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted May 9, 2015 Members Share Posted May 9, 2015 So this would be the question. I mean guitar players break strings while picking. It think one could make the argument that if you stick a mic over the drum and in the course of normal playing the drummer hits it I would consider that normal wear and tear Generally, when a guitarist breaks a string by their own actions of playing, it's not assumed to be the sound company's fault and the guitarist would pay for it. Generally, when a drummer breaks a stick, or a head by their own actions of playing, it's not assumed to be the sound company's fault and the drummer would pay for it. My expectation is when a drummer breaks a mic by their own actions of playing, it's not assumed to be the sound company's fault and the drummer would pay for it. This seems reasonable... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted May 9, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 9, 2015 Generally, when a guitarist breaks a string by their own actions of playing, it's not assumed to be the sound company's fault and the guitarist would pay for it. Generally, when a drummer breaks a stick, or a head by their own actions of playing, it's not assumed to be the sound company's fault and the drummer would pay for it. My expectation is when a drummer breaks a mic by their own actions of playing, it's not assumed to be the sound company's fault and the drummer would pay for it. This seems reasonable... Seemingly perfectly logical, except: If a guitarist breaks a string, they gotta fix it on their own behalf to carry on doing what they do. And: If a drummer breaks a stick, they gotta fix it own their own behalf to carry on doing what they do. If a drummer smacks a sound company's mic to oblivion the sound person's ultimately gotta fix it, one way or another, to carry on doing what the sound company does. At this level you're either a responsible adult or otherwise. Hope for the best while planning for the worst. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted May 9, 2015 Members Share Posted May 9, 2015 Well, that sucks. 57s have a a weak spot there. And shure certainly knew and could have offered a alternative. I've seen some folks use fork tines and electrical tape. If there's a question it might happen I use a 58 or better yet my personal favorite mic: the EWI 351. Bought some 8 yrs ago. All still working after hundreds and hundreds of gigs. I'll send you a link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Shaster Posted May 9, 2015 Members Share Posted May 9, 2015 Mark, I always took what I wanted to the show because I seldom had a rider, as in almost never. If anyone asked for a different mic, the normal response is "Sure. No problem! What cha got?" If they didn't bring it, they get what I give them. Indeed! I figure that anyone that asks for something I don't have is either a spoiled brat or they are at such a level that I wouldn't be doing sound for them anyway. I would also defy the drummer in question to hear the difference between an SM57 and the atm 63, if both mics were eq'd to sound the same. And of course if he could, then he should always bring his own 57. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dogoth Posted May 10, 2015 Members Share Posted May 10, 2015 I'd write it off but contact the drummer and nicely explain that you believe he owes you for the mic. No need for a shouting match that (as you pointed out) still won't get you any money. Unless the drummer is an exceptionally conscientious fellow, you probably won't get any money but you can at least make him feel like a heel and gain a little personal satisfaction. Kill him with kindness and feel a little bit better yourself. Possibly he might take a different view next time something like this happens to him (does you no good other than karma). That's probably how I'd handle it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted May 18, 2015 CMS Author Share Posted May 18, 2015 The thread is the concept of being "left holding the bag" with acknowledgement that it happens often enough to be a problem. The $50 is just what the bag contained this time around. I agree insurance is a good idea, but so too is a contract speaking somehow to damage liability. It's one of those "make your own luck" things. If "the bag" often contains microphones being hit by sticks then just put in the contract "break a mic with a stick and you bought the mic"... or the drummer is responsible for bringing his own snare mic. In absence of that drummer will get the cheapest, most beat up disposable thing we can find that will attach to a mic clip. The contract can be an evolving document that's amended as you learn what you want out of it. Edit it as desired and see what sticks. And Mark, as much as you want micro-manage every little thing so nothing goes wrong ever, it's simply not practical. It's something I struggle with as well. We're not disagreeing here, the problem is that contracts only work if both parties enter them with full understanding, and both parties are willing to abide them. This last part becomes a sticking point when additional money has to change hands because someone broke something "accidentally". What is a big loss for we small players isn't remotely large enough to warrant legal action in many cases, and the prospect of suing for losses but gaining a reputation as a result...and then losing business because of it, is where this all becomes a big problem. You lose a mic, no biggie. You lose a speaker...now that hurts. You lose shows and income because you sued for damages when the speaker was ruined...that hurts more. It's a tough choice to make, and it makes this an even more difficult business. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopile Posted May 19, 2015 Author Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 We're not disagreeing here, the problem is that contracts only work if both parties enter them with full understanding, and both parties are willing to abide them. This last part becomes a sticking point when additional money has to change hands because someone broke something "accidentally". What is a big loss for we small players isn't remotely large enough to warrant legal action in many cases, and the prospect of suing for losses but gaining a reputation as a result...and then losing business because of it, is where this all becomes a big problem. You lose a mic, no biggie. You lose a speaker...now that hurts. You lose shows and income because you sued for damages when the speaker was ruined...that hurts more. It's a tough choice to make, and it makes this an even more difficult business. Per exactly Craig. I knew the answer in my own mind before I posed the question, being "The best offence is a good defense, and when in the game, stick to your proven successful defensive plan". I posed the question for general discussion and passing on of experienced based knowledge... and to blow off a little steam. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Axisplayer Posted May 19, 2015 Members Share Posted May 19, 2015 I knew the answer in my own mind before I posed the question I suspect that is the answer for most things that you, Andy, and a handful of others ever post. You (collectively) did not get where you are without knowing these things. Just as in college, the professor knows the answer, but the learning starts with them posing a question to the "little indians" that are there to learn. But if I ever see you (collective again) pose a question about astrophysics or Shakespearean literature, I will throw that premise out the window and assume the question to be legitimate (unless you minored in Literature or aeronautical engineering and have not shared that info with us yet….) ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Mike M Posted May 24, 2015 Members Share Posted May 24, 2015 ".... I have some ATM-63 mics, which I usually use on the snare and rack toms at "local talent" festival situations. I use the ATM-63's because they sound ok for the situation, and will generally survive repeated drum stick hits. One of the band's drummer insisted on a SM-57 on his snare. Ok, so SM-57 on his snare it was. And sure enough, about 1/2 through their hour long set, the SM-57 took a drum stick smack right to the kisser... " It is my understanding that you were doing a multi-band event with "local talent". I provide the rig for similar events on a yearly basis. My usual drum mic scheme is a D6 on the kick and one OH (57) mic. That's all they get...... I have had many compliments on my drum mixes from other drummers.... If I asked every drummer what they wanted they'd ask for every drum mic'ed, etc. and their sound check would last longer than the band's set! In my opinion, your attempt to please the talent (or lack-there-of) cost you a piece of gear, plain & simple. Write it off as a learning experience. If a drummer in a "local talent" scenario asks me for a specific mic on a specific drum, I say "no prob, here's the line for it, just hook it up when YOU get it out....". That usually leads to a "duhhh...". Yup, a learning experience for sure. Mike M Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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