Phil O'Keefe Posted January 27, 2015 Share Posted January 27, 2015 So Cakewalk has announced a subscription model for Sonar, and Avid has done something similar with Pro Tools 12. What are your thoughts about this? Does the thought of getting updates faster appeal to you? Do you think more companies will switch to this payment model? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted January 27, 2015 Members Share Posted January 27, 2015 I think if you're running a professional business and they offer updates and support it may be a good way to go. For the solo home studio its not worth having to renew the subscription every year. I been using Cakewalk since around 1996 beginning with Cakewalk 8 and I've done 3 upgrades since. Sonar 4, 8 and X1. I just did X1 a few weeks ago and its a big disappointment. There's nothing there I couldn't do using 8.5. They just moved things around and added in some effects strips which I'm still deciding if its an upgrade or not. What it comes down to is these companies have grown very large and are following a MS model. Put out an upgrade once a year and try and milk you for more cash. The base engine is the same with a bunch of fluff added. The fact is the market for anything musical just isn't very good right now. When you add in all the Pirating and counterfeits flooding the market, you have to have something really good to offer to remain profitable. Its no different then satellite radio. I got it for 6 months when I bought my Mustang then took one of their special offers for a few months. There's allot of variety there, but unless you're in a car 24/7 you don't get you moneys worth. I spend maybe 1 hour a day in the car. 5 hours a week That comes out at being about 21 hours a months and they charge you $20 a month. I'd be paying $1 an hour to listen to inferior quality radio. No thanks. Half the time I just want to hear the news and I can get that for free. A company may use the program 40+ hours a week. A guy with a home studio may go several days to a week not using it at all. I put in between 8~16 hours use on weekends mostly. 400~800 hours a year which would cost me a half a buck an hour to use that program. Again, No thanks.If I were running a full time company its may be allot different then 2000~5000 hours a pro studio may use the program. That's about 5 cents or less an hour. Maybe if that based the charge on actual hourly usage then there might be an even playing field there and it might make sense. A flat rate, no way. Only a total idiot would do that. If I pay $200 for the base program and upgrade every 5 years, that's $40 a year, that's about 5 cents an hour and it only goes down if I use it more. I'm not pressured to renew either. I see no reason to spend 10 times that much, especially with those products. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted January 29, 2015 Author Share Posted January 29, 2015 I see your point regarding usage vs upgrade costs (especially if you delay upgrading and only do it every other version or whatever), but what if the companies start tying the upgrade cost to the version you're running? For example, Cakewalk has always been really generous about allowing you to upgrade from just about any version for the same upgrade price, but what if they decided to take Logic's onetime approach and say only version C or later can upgrade (users of version B or older are out of luck), or if they decide to say that you can upgrade the more recent version for one amount, but charge you more to upgrade older versions? No offense, but one area where I definitely disagree with you is the idea charging us for use based on the number of hours we're in the program. IMHO, that would absolutely suck! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members WRGKMC Posted January 29, 2015 Members Share Posted January 29, 2015 Well they are basing it on time aren't they with a subscription, just on a larger scale of one years use without a hourly usage limit. There is a difference between patches for flaws and actual upgrades. I think patches should remain free. Someone buys a product, they do expect it to work properly. The question is what's an upgrade and is that upgrade worth the money. When I upgraded from Sonar 4 to sonar 8. The base program was nearly identical. It was mostly the plugins that improved. When I went from 8.5 to X1, it's mostly a GUI rewrite, but change for change sake doesn't qualify as an upgrade for me especially if those changes make things reduce productivity. I'm not sure how many more upgrades I will do or want to do at this point. Besides being a major pain, I'm just not seeing any worthy gains. I already have more then enough of what I need when it comes to recording. There does comes time when you reach a saturation point and have to decide when enough is enough and I guess I reached that. I have done the music thing since I was a child but my day job is working for major electronic manufacturers which all use these same business models. I see business working from a world perspective. Subscriptions are just a rental model that's been around a long time now. Every couple of years manufacturers come out with a new product line of gear or software incorporating the latest technologies. Companies who need the product normally lease their equipment for 4 to 5 years then upgrade. Very few buy outright any more. Its too expensive and within 8 ~10 years the manufacturers quit making parts or supporting the software so businesses have switched to lease payments. They budget it as a cost of doing business. Leases are a little different because there are buyouts, but in the overall scope its just a rental plan with a longer commitment. In the past companies would buy their gear and do a tax depreciation as it got old. Many of those tax breaks have closed and since the cost of maintenance goes up and reliability goes down as gear ages, so companies are forced to use a lease method just to stay competitive. Its actually cheaper because the cost of maintenance goes up as gear ages. This is why I say a subscription is best for a business because that model saves them money. Corporate software package deals are surely nothing new. IT people deal with those all the time. My company even sells them. They come in as many shapes and forms as can be imagined. It is new to offer it to single users as a subscription, but in reality its just another form of rental and a way for the salesman to get their foot back into that company when its time to upgrade. I think these software companies should expand on the idea however. It can be a benefit to them and the business they support. Many small studios will likely stick with a paid version for the reasons I mentioned. But what if the DAW companies adopted a plan like cellphone users have. Have a friends and family plan and allow these small studios that network with other studios to combine their resources for lower rates. It would be good for the Software company and good for the groups of professionals who work together. If you were to take a Mastering studio for example this model may work. Their needs may be higher then most for the best quality software and thus the cost is the greatest. If they have a peer plan, they can offer a reduced rate for the daw software to the studios and they themselves can have a reduced rate for their own use because they are the hub of the plan. I don't know how well this would work with software alone. Maybe if there is hardware involved. People don't value software like they do hardware. People spend billions on cell phones, but would they pay the same money just for the software? I doubt it. That's why this plan would be better with a DAW pre loaded with software and interface, might be a more successful route. That have all in one systems of course, but one supported and upgraded might work. Trade it in every few years with a big upgrade fee and new subscription plan. You can even have a purchase site that lest you check your options based on your needs instead of a one size fits all. Just check off the options you want then have a tally of what the cost would be, kind of like those bare bones computer building sites. Add a maintenance agreement or extended warrantee as an option as well. Not sure how well this would work with the older generation of artists who tend to be more individualistic. I'd never be in something like that myself unless I had no other choice, but for the IPhone generation, this would be a natural evolution for them which is what I believe subscriptions are aimed at. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members CME Posted February 2, 2015 Members Share Posted February 2, 2015 It's an interesting time for sure. I subscribe to Harrison's Mixbus. I think it's $9 a month. So about $100 a year. Not too bad for a DAW that has some serious potential. I will gladly pay that for a long time into the future. I even looked at Cakewalk's plans for Sonar. They seem reasonable. Avid is the one who I think is missing the boat somewhat. The other plans, at least appear to, allow you to drop your plan without any "punishment". You can do as WRGKMC mentioned and subscribe every couple of years, get the new version and any updates for a year, and then do nothing until you decide a new version has features you really need/want to pay for. Until then you can keep on keeping on. But according to the information I've seen from Avid, if you let your plan lapse, you can keep using the latest version you received under your plan forever. However once you decide to buy in again, you either get the choice of paying full price (no previous ownership loyalty at all) for a new perpetual license, or join an expiring subscription model. Where once you quit paying the software quits working. So they are basically telling us loyal customers (I've had every version of PTLE since 6, and was even a MPTK and CPTK owner) that "if you want to keep using your software and keep getting new features you better not let your support plan expire. If you do, you'll have to start over." On top of that the price of "vanilla" Pro Tools support is $199 a year. For software that has many less features than the rest of it's competition. Luckily I had an old MP license lying around. Sold my PT11 license and used those funds to upgrade my MP license to a PT11 license with a year of support. So I get to play it out one more year and see if anything changes. But if they keep true to this course, whatever is the last version of Pro Tools I have when my subscription lapses will be my last. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mistersully Posted February 3, 2015 Members Share Posted February 3, 2015 slate are doing it with plugins too i hate it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted February 8, 2015 Members Share Posted February 8, 2015 I'm highly involved with Cakewalk so feel free to dismiss what I'm saying, but...if you check out the details of the SONAR membership program, it's nothing at all like the Adobe or Avid models. First, you can still buy software the way you always did before. The monthly payment thing is just that - a way to get the program now, but spread out paying for it over 12 months. Second, if you go for monthly but don't renew, you get to keep what you paid for if you made the 12 consecutive payments that are part of the terms. Third, it's not just upgrades/features, but there's also new content with each update. This however is separate from the features. So suppose you drop out for two years and renew .You'll get the current program, but you will not be able to get the content that was released during those two years, unless it was offered for sale separately. WRGKMC, SONAR X1 was not at all on the same level as X3 (the first post-Gibson release), which is not on the same level as the latest version. There have been major changes since the Gibson acquisition and I think most users would agree they have been very much for the better. Download the latest demo when it becomes available and see what you think. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted February 8, 2015 Members Share Posted February 8, 2015 As to Slate, they also allow you to buy the software as you did before with a permanent license, or do the rental thing. Where I can see real value is for collaborations or mixes done with someone who has a ton of Slate plug-ins, but you don't. Rent for a month or two ($20 or $40), do the mix, then move on. I've been on record as not being a fan of the subscription model, and I still feel that way if it's the only option. But if it's part of a collection of options, and there are still ways to own the software outright and not have to worry about it expiring, that's okay with me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phil O'Keefe Posted February 8, 2015 Author Share Posted February 8, 2015 I agree Craig - it's nice as an option, just as long as you can continue to use the software you already have even if you let the subscription lapse. From my somewhat limited understanding of the two programs Craig, it seems Cakewalk's plan provides you with those options you mentioned, while Avid's doesn't. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mistersully Posted February 8, 2015 Members Share Posted February 8, 2015 regarding slate... i agree with you craig... it's an option i'm just fearful of where all this is heading if things remain an option, i'm fine with it... but i can see that being phased out i guess we'll see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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