Presonus SL vs AH Mixwiz

[RoadRanger]

The dozen or so that I have are all at least 20 years old. 100% flawless reliability. They, and the Ashley MX508 are pretty common in these kinds of applications, except thatthe Yamaha is transformer isolated in and out. Very tolerant of goofy environment.

Nice! I just eBay'd a Presonus AB1818VSL for $400 shipped that should have similar functionality - obviously not in the same "tried and true" class - more "bleeding edge" LOL.

[agedhorse]

 

Nice! I just eBay'd a Presonus AB1818VSL for $400 shipped that should have similar functionality - obviously not in the same "tried and true" class - more "bleeding edge" LOL.

 

 

(Way) Better functionality but nowhere near the same class of construction or materials. Also, unlikely to be even remotely as functional in 20 years as support for the produt is withdrawn on what seems like a 5 year planned lifecycle.

 

I have some M-406's in installations that have been running 24/7 for 20 years as well, not even a hiccup. I don't think that's likely in the Presonus class. That's not even counting the lack of I/O transformer isolation which is essential to difficult operational environments.

[RoadRanger]

I have some M-406's in installations that have been running 24/7 for 20 years as well, not even a hiccup. I don't think that's likely in the Presonus class. That's not even counting the lack of I/O transformer isolation which is essential to difficult operational environments.

Those do look awesome (I found the manual on-line) - makes one wonder if analog will ever truly go away (in our lifetime at least ).

[srp72ee]

Those do look awesome (I found the manual on-line) - makes one wonder if analog will ever truly go away (in our lifetime at least ).

 

There is a lot to be said about analog simplicity both in the live sound and industrial environments. It's much easier to troubleshoot a simple 4-20 mA signal than a communication link over Ethernet, Profibus, or DH-485.

[agedhorse]

There is a lot to be said about analog simplicity both in the live sound and industrial environments. It's much easier to troubleshoot a simple 4-20 mA signal than a communication link over Ethernet, Profibus, or DH-485.

 

ESPECIALLY if there are more than one fault involved. A 4-20mA loop can be a real bitch if there are 2 faults and you don't know there are 2 faults

[OneEng]

 

Yes, that is a very big deal actually. Only Texas Instruments chipsets work reliably. I had something else in an older Dell and it was hot and cold, but worked most of the time. By the last round of "firewire" PC's there wasn't a single large manufacturer using Texas Instruments chipsets for their Firewire because it costs more than "the cheapest thing". Then there is the PC express card route, but not all all cards work and now laptops rarely have card slots. The PC business model and its open architecture has always been plagued with compatibility issues. The saturated market means slim margins and the need to use the cheapest thing going a good bit of the time. The blessing is the price, the curse is compatibility. Macs "just work" but you'll pay for that privilege.

 

 

I have used many firewire devices (camcorders, external hard drives, etc) on several computers and never experienced any issues at all. I suspect that the incompatibility is on the side of the SL making it temper-mental about what is on the other side.

 

Remember, the firewire spec and hardware/firmware that supports it is hardly on the cutting edge here. This should be time hardened and reliable as a rock by now.

 

Perhaps Presonus will create a new version of the SL hardware which interfaces with USB3.0 (5Gb/sec). The new version of USB eliminates polling (as did firewire) which eliminates lost packets and ensures time synchronization.

[RoadRanger]

Perhaps Presonus will create a new version of the SL hardware which interfaces with USB3.0 (5Gb/sec).

They already have - the AB1818VSL .

[prosigna]

 

I have used many firewire devices (camcorders, external hard drives, etc) on several computers and never experienced any issues at all.

 

 

I am guessing you have not used many audio interfaces with firewire. Or else you are very lucky and always got a TI chipset. The issues with Ricoh and other non-TI chipsets are well documented in both manufacturers system requirements and countless (and I mean COUNTLESS) message boards trying to overcome the issue. These problems are not seen to a great degree in non-audio firewire devices.

 

Focusrite and Presonus are the two worst offenders when it comes to requiring a TI chip set. The Digidesign stuff seems to be more forgiving based on my humble opinion of absolute fact and scientific observation of numerous discussion boards across all of the interwebs. So it must be true.

[abzurd]

 

I have used many firewire devices (camcorders, external hard drives, etc) on several computers and never experienced any issues at all. I suspect that the incompatibility is on the side of the SL making it temper-mental about what is on the other side. Remember, the firewire spec and hardware/firmware that supports it is hardly on the cutting edge here. This should be time hardened and reliable as a rock by now. Perhaps Presonus will create a new version of the SL hardware which interfaces with USB3.0 (5Gb/sec). The new version of USB eliminates polling (as did firewire) which eliminates lost packets and ensures time synchronization.

 

 

To be fair this is a common issue with audio interfaces and is not limited to Presonus. It's such an issue that there is a niche market of few boutique laptop makers that cater specifically to this market.

 

..... or you can just buy a mac. It's about the same price either way and the mac is actually a cheaper option if you go used. No politics, that's just the way it is.

[sibyrnes]

Personus is very clear about the fact that a FireWire card with a TI chipset is the way to go. For less than an investment of $30.00 your problems are solved! You have to be really looking for problems if you think this is an issue!

[WynnD]

 

I agree that FireWire can be finicky, but I would categorize it as fading, not dying. The main problem is we have a generation of Windows laptops without it, but Thunderbolt is now starting to appear and the next gen Windows lappies should support TB fairly universally (along with USB 3.0). There are certainly cost reasons that provide an incentive for manufacturers to deploy Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt-to-FireWire adapters cost as little as $30, and use off-the-shelf part, so TB should actually allow extending the life of FireWire devices for at least some time to come.

 

 

My experience is that FireWire works so much better on a Mac. (Mini or MacBook Pro. Never had a problem with them. Now ask me about my Window's laptop!)

[abzurd]

 

Personus is very clear about the fact that a FireWire card with a TI chipset is the way to go. For less than an investment of $30.00 your problems are solved! You have to be really looking for problems if you think this is an issue!

 

 

Actually it's not that simple. I had 2 TI cards. Both were recommended by Presonus and neither worked with a brand new Toshiba laptop bought specifically to use with the mixer. For over a year I tried and never got it to work. Meanwhile I could record on my older Dell with a non TI chipset firewire, but every once and a while it wouldn't work either. I ended up selling the laptop and buying a mac. This has been the only real frustration owning the mixer.

[RoadRanger]

Personus is very clear about the fact that a FireWire card with a TI chipset is the way to go. For less than an investment of $30.00 your problems are solved! You have to be really looking for problems if you think this is an issue!

It's a problem that most laptops have no slots these days but do have USB 3.0 . Having to buy a special computer just to interface an iPad to the SL is a no go for me. My AB181VSL will be in next Wednesday I think. It's a bit quirky for live use but hopefully Presonus will get their head out of their "we didn't really mean the 'live' part" butt and fix that - you'd think they would have learned from the original "Sucks at Live" debacle of the original SL .

[agedhorse]

It's a problem that most laptops have no slots these days but do have USB 3.0 . Having to buy a special computer just to interface an iPad to the SL is a no go for me. My AB181VSL will be in next Wednesday I think. It's a bit quirky for live use but hopefully Presonus will get their head out of their "we didn't really mean the 'live' part" butt and fix that - you'd think they would have learned from the original "Sucks at Live" debacle of the original SL .

 

It's hard to steer a large corporation that has a lot of "odd" thinking momentum. It's kind of a clue that their guys haven't been in the field for a while.

[abzurd]

It's a problem that most laptops have no slots these days but do have USB 3.0 . Having to buy a special computer just to interface an iPad to the SL is a no go for me. My AB181VSL will be in next Wednesday I think. It's a bit quirky for live use but hopefully Presonus will get their head out of their "we didn't really mean the 'live' part" butt and fix that - you'd think they would have learned from the original "Sucks at Live" debacle of the original SL .

 

I'm unfamiliar with the "sucks at live debacle" that you've brought up a few times now. The only major issue, and I was the first to bring it up to Presonus, was the lack of aux mutes on the original release. They fixed that with the first software update. There have been many enhancements, but really no other major functionality fixes that I can recall other than that. So what exactly are you talking about?

 

FWIW, I've always though of the board as a live mixer first and studio mixer second based on it's functionality and feature set.

[agedhorse]

IMO, they should have offered 2 versions... a live only version and a recording only version with tracking and mixdown capabilities rather than trying to beld the two. They could even be the same board with 2 different firmwares but the live version disable the issues that come up with recording and the recording board disable the wireless mixing and improve routing for track/mix. That way, with the additional processing power available, a better workflow could be achieved with each version for the task at hand.

[abzurd]

Like Presonus or the SL or not though, you have to give them credit. They came in as the new kid on the block with an innovative product. 3 years later there's still no real competition. It actually baffles me that other makers are just now coming out with their digital mixers to compete with Presonus. Having no previous entry in mixer market, Presonus has obviously taken a considerable market share away from other makers.

[RoadRanger]

I'm unfamiliar with the "sucks at live debacle" that you've brought up a few times now. The only major issue, and I was the first to bring it up to Presonus, was the lack of aux mutes on the original release.

That wasn't enough for you LOL ? They just don't bother to have live sound pros beta test their products before first release. There were a few other issues since fixed, like the stereo inputs not being routable to the monitors. And while I personally prefer PEQ's the "semi pro" live sound market forced them to implement GEQs on the outputs. Then there's AH "list" of bugs - dunno if they've fixes some of those or not.

 

They did get some "live" features very right - I hate mixers that don't have a separate talkback channel and require you to "give up" one of your 16 or worse mixers that require you to give up two more for break music. My Phonic Summit really only has 13 channels to the stage unless I use an external S/PDIF converter to input the iPod .

[abzurd]

 

That wasn't enough for you LOL ? They just don't bother to have live sound pros beta test their products before first release. There were a few other issues since fixed, like the stereo inputs not being routable to the monitors. And while I personally prefer PEQ's the "semi pro" live sound market forced them to implement GEQs on the outputs. Then there's AH "list" of bugs - dunno if they've fixes some of those or not.

 

 

OK, but all monitor sends and the main outputs have BOTH PEQ or semi-PEQ depending on the board, AND GEQ. They started all with PEQ. Early on they implemented GEQ on the mains then followed up with the monitors later. That's what's pretty cool. You buy a board based on the features it has and they "throw in" a rack of 31 band eq's for free down the road. You can't really complain about that.

[RoadRanger]

Like Presonus or the SL or not though, you have to give them credit. They came in as the new kid on the block with an innovative product. 3 years later there's still no real competition. It actually baffles me that other makers are just now coming out with their digital mixers to compete with Presonus. Having no previous entry in mixer market, Presonus has obviously taken a considerable market share away from other makers.

Yup, fortunately for them everyone else sucks too LOL .

 

Looks like the Mackie DL1608 only screwed up the break music capability - but it's rumored you can plug many iPods directly into the iPad connector to not take up any of the 16 normal channels. I'm hoping the lack of a talkback channel won't be an issue since you can carry the iPod up to the stage to do monitors and such.

 

The Line6 M20D is pretty interesting too if you can get your head past the "video game" look-and-feel . The docs really need to "catch up" too. It's not obvious that the 4 "line input only" channels are sensitive enough for mics too . Recallable preamp trims = .

[RoadRanger]

OK, but all monitor sends and the main outputs have BOTH PEQ or semi-PEQ depending on the board, AND GEQ. They started all with PEQ. Early on they implemented GEQ on the mains then followed up with the monitors later. That's what's pretty cool. You buy a board based on the features it has and they "throw in" a rack of 31 band eq's for free down the road. You can't really complain about that.

They didn't "throw them in for free" - the semi-pro live sound market demanded them and they implemented them to increase their sales. Some market research up-front would have told them they needed those GEQs - and the other "added features" they initially left out. Awesome mixer for semi-pros, especially if you need to run sound from the stage .

[abzurd]

They absolutely threw them in for free. They weren't there when I bought the thing and they showed up later. Yes, I'm sure it pushed the decision to buy one over the the goal line for many and it was indeed smart to add that feature. I just wouldn't characterize it as the market "demanding" it like they made a mistake. They simply responded to feature requests, and likely force ranked them based on popularity.... as they should.

 

Other notable additions that have been added

 

1 - VSL (mixing via PC/mac)

2 - iPad wireless mixing

3 - iphone monitor mixing

4 - SMART implementation (with more to come)

5 - ability to add effects to monitor mixes

6 - ability to put aux input A and B into monitor mixes

7 - HPF on the monitor sends

8 - Speaker delay option on monitor sends, which allows for easy implementation of remote stacks

 

I still long for user selectable HPF slopes via the menu (6, 12, 18, 24 dB) as the current 6 dB slope is kind of silly for most live applications. I also think a basic crossover function when running mono would be slick (left side to subs, right side to mains). Or alternatively the mono out to subs and L-R stereo to mains.

[RoadRanger]

I still long for user selectable HPF slopes via the menu (6, 12, 18, 24 dB) as the current 6 dB slope is kind of silly for most live applications.

They seemed to copy that from the Behringer DDX3216 LOL.

I also think a basic crossover function when running mono would be slick (left side to subs, right side to mains). Or alternatively the mono out to subs and L-R stereo to mains.

One thing I can do with the Phonic Summit is run an aux driven sub with just the internal EQ . The high and low EQ controls on all inputs and outputs have HPF and LPF modes respectively . That still leaves 3 fully parametric EQ's on each output .

[agedhorse]

6dB/octave HPF slope is a freshman oversight IMO.

[abzurd]

 

6dB/octave HPF slope is a freshman oversight IMO.

 

 

OK, but it's been nearly 3 years and it's an extremely easy thing to change. They've flat out said to me on a public forum not they ain't changing it even though MANY people have protested it. Actually they didn't say "never" but they "had other fish to fry" were their exact words.

 

http://forums.presonus.com/posts/list/14569.page#99639