Members LDBecker Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 3 - The recording (but not for the reason you might think) - Built in discrete track recording is great, but the best part about the feature is the ability to set up the PA and remix the show after the fact. It has allowed me to "practice" mixing where I'd not be able to otherwise. I've learned much about compression, EQ and effects by playing with things at my leisure. Side note: A good example is that the guitar player commented a few months ago that his guitar sounded "thin" during line check. I was able to explain to him that, while I agreed, once the whole band started playing he'd not think so. I told him how not filling the low-mids with guitar body allowed the bass and keys to fill in while not stepping on the distinctive part of the guitar tone. He got it and agreed once the band started that it sounded good. They all basically trust me because I never stop trying to improve my skills. Long story short, this mixer is an excellent training tool. 4 - The recording (for the reason you think) - Multi-track recording with easy playback through the mixer to tweak and print the mix. Yes please.The only real knock is that the recording was hit and miss before I bought my macbook pro, the recording was hit and miss as firewire is a dying technology. Also, understand there is an added expense to recording and remote mixing. I have two Studio Live boards - a 24.4.2 installed in my church (I'm the Sr. Pastor/tech guy/mixing and recording guy) and a 16.4.2 that I own for outdoor and personal events that I run, and for recording. I've recorded a few concerts in my church using the boards and the upgraded Studio One v.2 Pro version of their software (not the included version), and it's gone pretty well. VERY quiet recordings (Jazz, classical concerts we host at our church) and just wonderful sound (using AKG 414, 214, 451B and AT 4040 and 4041 mics). The "hit and miss" comment is very correct in my experience. I have a couple of LAST YEAR'S Sony model F laptops (Core i7, 7200 rpm hd, 8 gigs of RAM), which were the last Sony models to have firewire. I had to hunt for an old F series laptop because I could find no other laptop that had firewire... What does that tell us? Anyway, if I want to record or edit, I have to disable the WiFi/Bluetooth radios in the laptop or the recording just stops randomly whenever the shared resources are used by the radios and the firewire port. VERY FRUSTRATING, AND it means that WiFi/iPad use is not enabled (haven't tried hardwire from the router to the Sony yet - should work?). I've also had some trouble editing on the Sony - the software sometimes spazzes out (yes, that's the technical term) and just stutters. I have to restart Studio One for it to work again. Something to do with the processor speed changes. Presonus has a utility that changes the power scheme for Windows 7 machines that locks it into high speed/fan running at full speed mode, and that takes care of it - but it's noisey... So... go Apple, I think would be my recommendation - especially since the FW-Thunderbolt adapter works. Pc's are kind of a pain - doable, but painful sometimes. Larry Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Note that in a church, a total failure of the consoole carries much less liability than for an event where you are the contracted sound provider and admission is charged. Chances are very small that your church will sue you over the cost of expenses and loss of revenue compared with a commercial contracted event. We call this a "friendly" exposure to liability whereas a commercial promoter is likely to be "hostile" in the event of a failure. This is why reliability means totally different things to different users. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 I agree with that. It also depends on the level of complexity of the event. For us, in the case of a total failure we'd patch things into 6 channels (bass, guitar, drums, lead vocal, keys) and the mains. So 8 cables popped out of one board and into another and we'd be back in business. I'd daisy chain a main to a monitor for side fill and way we'd go. Granted it's not ideal, but would be passable. Frankly we ought to do that sometime when we have time to kill just so I could set base line EQ and trim. It would be close enough to get started. The backup mixer sits in a case right behind the main mixer so down time is limited. So I have a plan that means limited downtime and the show can go on. Obviously my situation is one of the easier ones to prepare for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Also, some acts would have no problem just walking in the event of a failure. That's something that opens up the whole exposure to liability thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Also, some acts would have no problem just walking in the event of a failure. That's something that opens up the whole exposure to liability thing. Your venturing out of bounds though in the context of this thread. You can cast stones at anything if you're looking for reasons. In this instance it's a band playing weekend bar gigs for 100 or so people and running their own sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LDBecker Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Note that in a church, a total failure of the consoole carries much less liability than for an event where you are the contracted sound provider and admission is charged. Chances are very small that your church will sue you over the cost of expenses and loss of revenue compared with a commercial contracted event. We call this a "friendly" exposure to liability whereas a commercial promoter is likely to be "hostile" in the event of a failure.This is why reliability means totally different things to different users. Not "hostile"? You haven't met any Lutherans before, I see... Hahaha - just kidding - mostly. No lawsuit, but loss of credibility for me personally and for all things electronic. But that's why I have a backup or two that can easily be put into place with 10 minutes notice... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 4, 2012 Members Share Posted September 4, 2012 Your venturing out of bounds though in the context of this thread. You can cast stones at anything if you're looking for reasons. In this instance it's a band playing weekend bar gigs for 100 or so people and running their own sound. I was just explaining why reliability can have an impact on the choice of console (or anything else for that matter). There are folks reading these threads that may have different needs/requirements but similar questions at the OP does. I'm just presenting some additional info. that may be imprortant to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 I carry my A&H ZED 10Fx along just in case my MixWiz has a serious problem. I can always get by with 3 vocal mics, the vDrums going into one of the two stereo channels and the backline amps for both guitars and the bass. I could swing most gigs with a single sub (PRX618S-XLF) and top (Yamaha DSR112). I have access to another pair of powered CV subs and powered CV tops if things really really go south with my FOH (which they have not ...... knocks on wood many many times in earnest ). I agree with both Abzurd and Agedhorse. From Abzurd's point of view, I would never do a gig without any kind of backup (even if it is a friends equipment within 1 hr drive). I also know that I am in the minority of bands in this area. Most of them would be seriously in trouble if a mixer died. From Agedhorses point of view, a larger venue with higher pay would be a much larger liability. At this point, even IF you had a backup, the fact that your rig failed in a concert and caused any kind of interruption is a serious liability. You just wouldn't do it. In this scenereo, you would pay premium dollar for a very robust mixer. Neither the MixWiz or the 16.4.2 are in the latter category of equipment IMHO. People that purchase these products are cost sensitive and feature aware. I am in this category as well. I couldn't afford a mixer with the robustness features Agedhorse mentioned (without getting divorced anyway ). Of course, it is also true that the MixWiz is less likely to need a backup than the SL. From all I have read, the SL has a pretty decent record of reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 In this scenereo, you would pay premium dollar for a very robust mixer. Neither the MixWiz or the 16.4.2 are in the latter category of equipment IMHO.I don't know of any mixer more robust that the MixWiz. The reason it isn't used in those "big show" situations is it's limited channel count. Probably the same can be said about the SL - though they really should finish up the bug fixes . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 I don't know of any mixer more robust that the MixWiz. The reason it isn't used in those "big show" situations is it's limited channel count. Probably the same can be said about the SL - though they really should finish up the bug fixes . It's ok as far as reliabilty, maybe close to the best in class but as you get into more robust products, the differences are significant. Also, the more features you add, the more critical the reliability of each part becomes in the overall product reliability. Many more points of potential failure. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 I don't know of any mixer more robust that the MixWiz.Oops, forgot about this guy:http://www.apb-dynasonics.com/products/Products_ProRackHouse.htmlMaybe even two steps up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 It's ok as far as reliabilty, maybe close to the best in class but as you get into more robust products, the differences are significant. Also, the more features you add, the more critical the reliability of each part becomes in the overall product reliability. Many more points of potential failure.Just curious, if you were doing the President's swearing in outdoors (or a similar high profile "can't fail" gig), what mixer would you use? Assume no more than 8 channels used . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prosigna Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 We used a 48 channel PM3500 for three inputs while covering George W. Bush in '03. Used the same console to cover Ludicrous and some other big name Hip Hop/rap guys. 8-inputs. The only show we did that was high profile (by that I mean A-rig touring class KF850s or Vertecs) was Marcel Marceau in a 3,000 seat theater. We used a 4-channel Mackie for the Tour Manager to run a MiniDisc player on. No mics. The funny thing is he got pissed (in his little French Guy way) about the lack of faders. This model Mackie used only knobs. He kept fussing "I need....." and he would move his hands back and forth like he was moving the faders. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 We used a 48 channel PM3500 for three inputs while covering George W. Bush in '03. Used the same console to cover Ludicrous and some other big name Hip Hop/rap guys. 8-inputs.Was that mostly because it was what you had available or would you have been comfortable with a MixWiz ? If not, why? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 The only show we did that was high profile (by that I mean A-rig touring class KF850s or Vertecs) was Marcek Marceau in a 3,000 seat theater. We used a 4-channel Mackie for the Tour Manager to run a MiniDisc player on. No mics. The funny thing is he got pissed (in his little French Guy way) about the lack of faders. This model Mackie used only knobs. He kept fussing "I need....." and he would move his hands back and forth like he was moving the faders.Did you mean Marcel Marceau the mime? If so that last sentence becomes quite hilarious LOL . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 Just curious, if you were doing the President's swearing in outdoors (or a similar high profile "can't fail" gig), what mixer would you use? Assume no more than 8 channels used . When doing high profile events like this, I generally use an M-2000 (a scaled down PM-3500 which is my favorite analog console BTW) or sometimes I will use a pair of M-406's with a dual signal path including dual mics all the way to 2 racks per side with each having it's own dedicated processing so that any single failure would only cause a net 3dB drop in SPL. There are other ways to improve reliability, things like transformer summing of 2 mixers and/or providing redundant signal paths, UPS on the FOH power, etc. You can't eliminate every point of failure but you can reduce the number of points which increases the reilability, I also like to install things so they almost troubleshoot themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Anderton Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 The only real knock is that the recording was hit and miss before I bought my macbook pro, the recording was hit and miss as firewire is a dying technology. I agree that FireWire can be finicky, but I would categorize it as fading, not dying. The main problem is we have a generation of Windows laptops without it, but Thunderbolt is now starting to appear and the next gen Windows lappies should support TB fairly universally (along with USB 3.0). There are certainly cost reasons that provide an incentive for manufacturers to deploy Thunderbolt. Thunderbolt-to-FireWire adapters cost as little as $30, and use off-the-shelf part, so TB should actually allow extending the life of FireWire devices for at least some time to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members StratGuy22 Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 4 barrel carbs are obsolete as well, but they still work on muscle cars. My plan is to let the Mac mini age with the SL. It's a dedicated comp. in 5 years I might be into a whole different board, but the Mac mini will still work with the SL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members prosigna Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 Did you mean Marcel Marceau the mime? If so that last sentence becomes quite hilarious LOL . Oops, I fixed it. Yes, the mime. Doing sound for a mime gave rise to plenty of jokes. We argued for weeks about whether we used proper gain structure, speaker placement, if we should have carried front fills (there was no spill from the wedges after all!), etc... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 sometimes I will use a pair of M-406'sThat's an interesting mixer - how old are they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoadRanger Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 Thunderbolt-to-FireWire adapters cost as little as $30, and use off-the-shelf part, so TB should actually allow extending the life of FireWire devices for at least some time to come.I've heard that the firewire built into WIndows laptops generally doesn't work with the SL's - only certain chipsets. I wonder if the TB to FW "solution" will work at all ? Presonus does now have a USB based SL (1818VSL) although it's reported to not work well with USB 3.0 . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members abzurd Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 I've heard that the firewire built into WIndows laptops generally doesn't work with the SL's - only certain chipsets. I wonder if the TB to FW "solution" will work at all ? Presonus does now have a USB based SL (1818VSL) although it's reported to not work well with USB 3.0 . Yes, that is a very big deal actually. Only Texas Instruments chipsets work reliably. I had something else in an older Dell and it was hot and cold, but worked most of the time. By the last round of "firewire" PC's there wasn't a single large manufacturer using Texas Instruments chipsets for their Firewire because it costs more than "the cheapest thing". Then there is the PC express card route, but not all all cards work and now laptops rarely have card slots. The PC business model and its open architecture has always been plagued with compatibility issues. The saturated market means slim margins and the need to use the cheapest thing going a good bit of the time. The blessing is the price, the curse is compatibility. Macs "just work" but you'll pay for that privilege. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sibyrnes Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 I had problems recording with the firewire in my Dell Latitude so I invested under $30.00 in a PCMCIA firewire card with a TI chipset as recommended by Personus. So far it has been flawless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members srp72ee Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 The TI chipset is by far the most stable of the 3 that I tested. To the OP... You will find people quite supportive of both mixers. I personally have a SL24 that I'm quite pleased with. I've mixed on a Mixwiz several times and like that console as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted September 5, 2012 Members Share Posted September 5, 2012 That's an interesting mixer - how old are they? The dozen or so that I have are all at least 20 years old. 100% flawless reliability. They, and the Ashley MX508 are pretty common in these kinds of applications, except thatthe Yamaha is transformer isolated in and out. Very tolerant of goofy environment. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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