Guitar doctor needed! Could someone listen to these examples and tell me where I'm going wrong...

[fizzyfizz]

Hi, I've been making my own music for over 30 years and nearly always use synths because whenever I introduce a guitar it always ends up sounding either flat or muddy and always horrible!

 

Over the years I've had access to a number of different guitars and effect boxes etc but I always end up with the same rubbish result! I understand the concept of separating the tracks left and right but I'm obviously doing something wrong somewhere.

 

Here are two samples from a recent composition. Same track with the guitar at two different levels. It sounds terrible! A complete mess!! But I cannot pin point what I need to do to get a nice and simple cleaner sound. Eg, when listening to the radio, on most songs I can easily pick out the bass guitar and lead guitar etc (even if the radio was quiet!)

 

My tune sounds absolute rubbish and I'd really appreciate any advice. Here's links to the 2 examples...

 

 

http://www.fizzywack.webspace.virginmedia.com/guitarloud.mp3

 

http://www.fizzywack.webspace.virginmedia.com/guitarquiet.mp3

 

 

THANK YOU

 

 

 

[jtr654]

Try going direct no FX on bass and guitar. You really want a Clean sound than Turn Down the Gain.

[WRGKMC]

Are you using good studio monitors to mix??? Studio monitors are a must in getting a proper balance and frequency response.

 

I'll go out on a limb here and at a quick listen it immediately sounds like its been mixed on headphones. Bad speakers or mixing environment may be the cause too. The frequency response and instrument levels are all strange. It may sound fine on headphones but it doesn't translate to speaker systems properly.

 

The cause of this is with headphones, the center is between your ears inside your skull and you have no depth perception. Mixes will wind up sounding two dimensional and lack depth. Everything will sound like its on the edge of the stage and you run out of stage very quickly.

 

When you mix with good monitors, you use reverb and EQ properly and push some instruments back from the front of the stage like drums and guitars and leave things like Vocals leads up front. When you use speakers the left ear hears some of what the right ear hears and you can properly triangulate distances. With headphones its Pure Luck you get anything close to being right.

 

I learned that the hard way. I wasted 10 years trying to mix that way and if I got real lucky I might bet one out of 20 songs that was close to sounding realistic. Once I got good monitors, those numbers reversed themselves and I may get one fail out of 20.

 

Plus with super flat response monitors you can trust the things you are mixing will sound good on just about all systems including headphones. If your speakers are commercial grade and have scooped mids for example (common trick used to make speakers sound bigger then they actually are) everything you mix on them will have too much mids because the system lacks mids so you over boost them to sound right. Too much bass from the speakers, the opposite happens in the mix and you have too little. The system lacks highs, you wind up with too much in the mix. The only way to get it right with a bad speaker system is guesswork and playing that music back on many different systems, taking notes then tweaking it a little and hoping you don't over do it.

 

With good monitors it will sound nearly the same on all systems minus their deficiencies. Everything else is simply mixing and mastering skills that take years and even decades to refine. Not sure exactly which of these will help the most but having all the right tools is a must in getting good quality mixes. Everything else takes time to learn and a good set of ears to know what sounds best. You can also do A/B comparisons to see how your mixes compare to other commercial recordings. When its close to that quality, you'll know it. when it isn't take notes on why it isn't.

[Steve2112]

I listened to the first one. The only thing that stand out is vocals too loud. I don't hear it as a "complete mess" at all. In fact it's quite good.

 

I do agree with jtr that maybe turn down the gain on the guitar. That is a common error.

 

I could suggest a couple other things if you twist my arm. Instrument separation seems a crucial part of a good recording. Normally when the bass and guitar are mushed together, the guitar EQ is too bassy, stomping on the bass part. I don't really hear that hear...maybe it's the bass part too high? You also could "link" (sidechain compressions/gate?) the bass guitar and kick drum- get those things synced up, then by proxy "release" the guitar to be on it's own.

 

Honestly it doesn't sound all that bad. Youhave a nice 80's synth pop Missing Persons vibe going on. Of course I only heard one minute- don't hear the hook or any guitar solo- which would give me a better idea. If it were me, I'd lower the vocal- and redo the guitar with less gain. I might even pan the recorded hi gain track on one side, and record the lower gain panned to the other side.

 

Have you done a pro mastering on this yet? Unless this is some big budget studio....B+ all day!

 

[DeepEnd]

My tastes must run opposite Steve2112's. I listened to both and thought the vocals didn't stand out enough on the first one. The second was better, IMHO.

[fizzyfizz]

Thanks for your help guys. WRGKMC you are absolutely correct. These tracks have been mixed using headphones (Sennheiser HD555). Unfortunately I live in a small house and work in a very small room so monitors are sadly out of the question.

 

My standard workflow is to mix using headphones and then blast the tunes out in my car. If they sound good in the car... job done. Hardly an ideal environment I know but I can only work with what I have available and it was clearly obvious on all accounts this current mix wasn't good.

 

I'll have a go at turning down the gain and trying some other options.

 

Thanks again. The replies are very much appreciated.

[WRGKMC]

Thanks for your help guys. WRGKMC you are absolutely correct. These tracks have been mixed using headphones (Sennheiser HD555). Unfortunately I live in a small house and work in a very small room so monitors are sadly out of the question.

 

My standard workflow is to mix using headphones and then blast the tunes out in my car. If they sound good in the car... job done. Hardly an ideal environment I know but I can only work with what I have available and it was clearly obvious on all accounts this current mix wasn't good.

 

I'll have a go at turning down the gain and trying some other options.

 

Thanks again. The replies are very much appreciated.

 

 

I did it that way for 10 years when living in an apartment and having young kids. The thing is with good studio monitors you actually don't work with then any louder then you would watching a TV. 85db is quiet enough to talk over.

 

If all you have is headphones, I suggest you download some speaker emulation software. What this software does is put some of the left sound in the right ear and right in the left with some Phase/Doppler effect added to emulate how you actually hear speakers. I downloaded several different free versions of this kind of software awhile back just by goggling. I haven't messed with it however. I hate wearing headphones and only use them for tracking vocals so I haven't taken the time to test how well the software works.

 

I suppose the best way to set it up would be to have monitors and headphones going and tweak the software until it sounds the same with the headphones on or off. Maybe they do have some presets however so you may be good in either case.

 

Here's a few I found with a quick search. You can probably find others.

 

Read this first. http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/jan07/articles/mixingheadphones.htm

 

Then try out some of these. You can probably find more.

 

http://www.midnightwalrus.com/Canz3D/

 

http://www.supremepiano.com/product/head.htm

 

http://europe.beyerdynamic.com/virtual-studio.html

 

http://vellocet.com/software/VNoPhones.html

 

http://www.112db.com/redline/monitor/?demo

 

By the way, I did get to listen on some better speakers this morning. I commend you on being able to get rid of the upper mid bump in frequencies that is common with headphone mixes. Since the outer ear isn't being used with cans and shifting the frequencies slightly, its common to have a narrow notch there which is highly annoying. You must have worked that out doing A/B comparisons playing it back in the car.

 

The mix isn't bad but the order of layering the parts on the sound stage is non conventional. In artistic terms, that really doesn't matter but the normal choice of depth placement is not what you'd normally hear. The drums are in front of the vocals on the center of the stage and the vocals are spread to the sides. You have the hold in the middle for the vocals but don't take advantage of that spot. With the right ambiance you can push the drums further back from the front of the stage, center the vocals in that hole in the center and get rid of that scooped sound messing with the upper mids. Its not far off so these will be small tweaks not huge reconstructions.

 

When you can afford to dig up a couple of hundred dollars get some near field monitors. Something like the M-Audio BX5's can be had as a pair for about $200 when you catch them on sale. You'll find most of your issues disappear and your mixing time come way down.

[fizzyfizz]

That is amazing advice! Thank you so much.I didn't even know such software for headphones existed!

 

Yes I'd noticed that about drums in front of the vocals but I'm not too sure what I'd need to do to move them back. Everything is recorded using Logic Pro X. The software is great but some of the more technical stuff is over my head. I only record music for fun and have subsequently never really pursued the more advanced options available.

 

But anyway, I shall have some fun experimenting this weekend and will report back.

 

Thanks again

[WRGKMC]

To move the drums back in the mix, you can try sending the drums to an aux bus, then use a reverb plugin and find a reverb preset for drums or snare. Then mix in just a small amount of reflectivity. This will tend to brighten the high frequencies so you may want to EQ it as needed. If your drums consist of separate tracks leave the kick dry. If they are samples and simply a stereo track then use a high pass filter before the reverb so the kick isn't picked up by the reverb. With some careful tweaking you should be able to move them back 5~10' in the mix where drums are normally placed on a stage. This should free up front stage presence and the vocals will become the center of interest.

 

By the way I found this monitor emulator plugin. It seems to be one of the better ones. The demo version is fully functional but doesn't save the setting. The full version which does save the settings is $25.

 

One note, these do get placed in your main buss so all sounds pass through it when mixing. You want to be sure to remove it from the Buss before you mix the music down. This plugin colors the sound to sound good through headphones. You don't want that color added when you mix down and play that mix back on normal speakers.

 

Also download the manual. It explains all the features used to make headphones work like speakers.

 

Good luck.

[Steve2112]

That is amazing advice! Thank you so much.I didn't even know such software for headphones existed!

 

Yes I'd noticed that about drums in front of the vocals but I'm not too sure what I'd need to do to move them back. Everything is recorded using Logic Pro X. The software is great but some of the more technical stuff is over my head. I only record music for fun and have subsequently never really pursued the more advanced options available.

 

But anyway, I shall have some fun experimenting this weekend and will report back.

 

Thanks again

 

 

 

I think you can still mix the way you want/have been. What needs to happen is for you to relisten on all the media. Put it on a CD as Windows Audio and take to your car. Put it on MP3, put it on a mobile player, and pipe it into the car. Play it on a home stereo. PC. EVERYTHING...and make adjustments. You want it to sound good on everything...but what is the number one listening device? Headphones/buds! And PC speakers.

 

I still think it sounds pretty good and I would try a professional mastering, if you have a few extra bucks. Makes a BIG difference!

 

I still think it sounds nice for a hobbyist.

[Steve2112]

My tastes must run opposite Steve2112's. I listened to both and thought the vocals didn't stand out enough on the first one. The second was better' date=' IMHO.[/quote']

 

 

 

Put it on a spectrum analyzer and see where the peaks lay. I do admit I should listen to the 2nd one as well.

[fizzyfizz]

Guys, thanks again. Steve2112 I really appreciate your kind comments and you make an excellent point about listening on different devices.

 

The possibilities seem endless and the capabilities of today's computers are just mind blowing. I grew up in the 80s and used to pretend my Dad's typewriter was a Roland Jupiter 8! I would be 'playing along' whilst listening to my favourite tracks by Depeche Mode etc.

 

Sadly, still no sign of a Jupiter 8 making it's way to my house but thankfully my laptop, keyboard and headphones do alright. This is all I was using to create my problem track in question. Vocals downloaded from a stock website and sampled guitars.

 

The mix isn't perfect but the technology is AMAZING! Thanks again, great forum

[knotty]

Guys, thanks again. Steve2112 I really appreciate your kind comments and you make an excellent point about listening on different devices.

 

The possibilities seem endless and the capabilities of today's computers are just mind blowing. I grew up in the 80s and used to pretend my Dad's typewriter was a Roland Jupiter 8! I would be 'playing along' whilst listening to my favourite tracks by Depeche Mode etc.

 

Sadly, still no sign of a Jupiter 8 making it's way to my house but thankfully my laptop, keyboard and headphones do alright. This is all I was using to create my problem track in question. Vocals downloaded from a stock website and sampled guitars.

 

The mix isn't perfect but the technology is AMAZING! Thanks again, great forum

Wise move holding back the Depeche Mode love until late in the day.

Welcome to the forum.

[DeepEnd]

Put it on a spectrum analyzer and see where the peaks lay. I do admit I should listen to the 2nd one as well.

Yeah, comparing two tracks works best when you listen to both tracks. Too bad all I have are ears. I bet a spectrum analyzer would be great for telling me what I'm supposed to be hearing.

 

As for the OP's monitor situation, a cheap pair of monitor speakers will run you around $200, especially if you buy used. As WRGKMC mentioned, you don't need to have them cranked up extremely loud, just loud enough to hear what you're working on.

[WRGKMC]

A spectrum analyzer can help, but only if you have a baseline to compare it to. If the music is similar to some commercial recording you could import that commercial tune into your current project and then compare it by ear to your tracks or use an analyzer to compare how each look. The problem is its unlikely the instruments recorded and the musical compositions are going to be the same so matching your tracks to a commercial recording may damage your original artwork.

 

Using an analyzer is helpful is your playback system does help you identify large bumps and valleys in the music that aren't being heard, but having listened to your tracks I'm really not hearing much of that so I'm not sure how helpful it might be. You can download Voxengo Span for free though and mess around with it. Its a good analyzer and its does have dual displays so you can pan one channel hard left and another hard right and compare the two frequency curves. I do this sometimes when I have masking with two guitars that have similar curves. I can then EQ them differently so one isn't covering the other up.

 

For mastering, You may want to look at this product. It can do wondrous things for a mix if used properly. http://www.har-bal.com/

Its a frequency analyzer/EQ system that can identify and correct frequency response issues in a mixdown. If you watch the video it explains how you can flatten a response and correct issues your monitors or headphones fail to expose to your ears.

 

The program does have a long learning curve and is not a wham bam thank you mam tool. You will have to understand what you're trying to do when you're using it, but its also got some long term benefits. As you see the same issues appear when mastering, you begin to realize how those issues can be fixed in the tracking or mixing stages. Eventually you begin to avoid those issues or correct them before you get to the mastering stages so the mix is so good you need very little RX mastering to Fix problems and simply add icing on the cake instead.

 

As you get better recording using audio tools, those tools stop being medical aids to fix problems and become artistic enhancement tools instead. Eventually you get to the point where your raw tracks are recorded so well they practically mix themselves. Its like a woman who looks beautiful without all that makeup being layered on with a butter knife just to hide what's below. A keen ear can hear through all that makeup so getting the basics right will always be the primary goal and the weakest link besides your musical performance and musical composition.

 

Much of this is getting the cart before the horse however. Your recording really doesn't need allot of what I've mentioned. You don't require any major reconstruction where a blueprint may help. You're already beyond that and the small tweaks are simply those few strokes an artists adds to his painting before he retires and signs the painting.

 

The best advice I can give is put it aside for a few weeks or a month and avoid listening to it. Start on a new project for awhile, then come back to it with fresh ears and a new perspective. Hear it as a listener and not as the artist actually performing on the recording. This is the hardest part in home recording because you have a natural bias to making your own favorite parts stand out in the mix. You have to learn to wear the hat as an observer and truthfully judge the work unbiased and you should hear what the audience hears. Then you take notes on things and make very small tweaks to correct them and avoid the micro management syndrome.

 

You can wind up chasing the dragons tail into oblivion and destroy a recording is you're too obsessed with details, and when you ask others to find flaws instead of finding the good in the music you will receive exactly what you asked for, negative feedback instead of positive. Only you can match whet you hear in your own head and when its close enough to that aural vision, stop and leave it alone. When you come back to it, most of those small details are invisible to the normal listener and when you get positive feedback without asking you know you hit the right spot.