Members Vito Corleone Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 I need a desk to last >5 yrs to get ROI. This is why I'm fairly intent on avoiding Behringer. I dunno. The X32s have been around for what? 3 years now? And they seem to be pretty reliable thus far. At least as reliable as any of the other similar products on the market. While I have long shared much of the distaste for Behringer than many on this forum have, I think it's time for people to admit that they hit it out of the park with these digital mixer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 Because the iPad or other tablet interface isn't supported that long, nor will its battery last or be easily/economically replaceable. Then the OS isn't supported after a few years, and in many cases can no longer be obtained (back when we had that stuff on disks this wasn't a problem) let alone updated. The I/O devices will no doubt change in that time as well. So.....obsolete... Yeah, but it seems to me that these mixers are made with the already-uses-a-tablet customer in mind. If you're going to be upgrading your iPad every few years anyway...would it be that hard for the mixer manufacturers to update software for the latest tablets? Sorry, I'm just not seeing how one wouldn't be able to pretty easily get several years out of one of these mixers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 It's not just updating the software, often the hardware needs to be updated to remain compatable as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members voicemaster Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 I think behringer make a smart move by supporting not only iOS devices, but also windows and android. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 It's not just updating the software' date=' often the hardware needs to be updated to remain compatable as well.[/quote'] Apple did change the size of their interface a while back. But they make an adapter for that as well. But yeah, at some point dealing with adapters and such is more trouble than it's worth. But honestly, I think the fears are overblown. Those of us that work with PCs for a living know we will be upgrading every few years. Just part of the bargain these days. I don't see this as really being much different. And, of course you don't have to use PCs necessarily. They still make typewriters, don't they? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 Apps have to still be available in 10yrs. Apps that won't be compatible with the mist current OS. In 5yrs can I download the presonus ab1818 app to an ipad2 (example)? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 3, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted October 3, 2014 Yeah, but it seems to me that these mixers are made with the already-uses-a-tablet customer in mind. If you're going to be upgrading your iPad every few years anyway...would it be that hard for the mixer manufacturers to update software for the latest tablets? Sorry, I'm just not seeing how one wouldn't be able to pretty easily get several years out of one of these mixers. You can see it today. Go see what's supported by Mackie for the TT24... the latest OS their drivers are supported on is XP, which is not supported by Microsoft. And this is for relatively very easy software for USB connectivity, nothing like the software to handle a complete tablet interface, so it's not likely the trend will change. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Two of Seven Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 Do folks really expect to see these new mixers anytime soon or are we drooling over flying cars again? What has changed ? Also – why do the nifty little digital mixers at this level seem to miss having flexible pic off points for the auxes? Part of the draw with these is ditching the outboard processing racks and having everything available on each channel strip, right? Plus lots of aux sends? But who wants to mix wedges with FOH channel strip compression/eq settings? Dl1608 fixed this after much complaining, Qsc Touchmix has not yet, SM Pro Umix – who knows, new Behringers – who knows. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 You can see it today. Go see what's supported by Mackie for the TT24... the latest OS their drivers are supported on is XP, which is not supported by Microsoft. And this is for relatively very easy software for USB connectivity, nothing like the software to handle a complete tablet interface, so it's not likely the trend will change. And this is a 10 year old mixer. And for those who still have a computer with XP, it's still going to work great. Just because Microsoft stopped supporting XP doesn't mean you can't use XP any longer. (How many more updates would XP still need at this point anyway?) I have a hard time getting memory cards for my old Motif these days. Doesn't make the board unusable by a long shot. Isn't going to the first choice for somebody looking for a new board, obviously. But for somebody who already owns one and likes it? It's still gotta lot of miles left in the drivetrain for sure. Yes, we live in a world now where electronic devices become outdated in a few years. Whether it's your TV or DVD player or automobile or computer or whatever. Most of us aren't using the same devices we did 10 years ago with all sorts of things. Looks like it will be the same with these sorts of mixers. I don't think that will hurt the marketability of them at all. And will probably be more than offset by the usability, convenience, etc. And for those still wanting to lug around a clunky analog board and a rack full of outboard gear, those options will probably still exist too. Especially if that stuff is available good and cheap used. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members sibyrnes Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 A UPS is pretty much standard equipment with digital stuff, I think. I have one for all my keys and we use another one on the FOH equipment. Yeah, but my AR1215 is only rated for 15 amps. I destroyed it last time I used it with a generator powering two PLX 3402's. Fortunately, and to their credit, Furman repaired it under warranty. I'm sticking with analog for this gig-it does all I need! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 At this stage as a dedicated engineer I think showing up without a full console would be a bad look. I dunno. I think public perception is changing on this pretty quickly. Depends on the situation of course. I think it's going to be awhile before we start seeing sound engineers roaming arenas mixing large tours on iPads with no physical console in sight. (Then again...maybe not...) but for smaller venues, the wireless/remote look is pretty cool. For bands doing the type of gigs I do at our level, I can very easily forsee a time where bands showing up wanting to set up a console in the back of the room and run a snake to it are going to be looked at very disparagingly. Most people seem to be pretty impressed with the look and operation of doing stuff remotely. Our regular sound guy recently traded in using a full X32 for using two X32 racks. (The second one serves both as the extra channel inputs and as a backup if the first one were to ever fail.) He wasn't using the physical faders anymore so why bother dragging that big thing around and finding a place to set it up? Musicians who come up to check out our gear always seem to be impressed with the technology. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 Yeah, but my AR1215 is only rated for 15 amps. Well obviously you have to use gear appropriate for your needs. WesG brought up a good point about UPSs not being optimal for dealing with the load fluctuations of some generators, though. If you've got the analog gear and would rather use it in that situation, then that's the way to go, of course. With my keys, I don't really have the option/desire to pull out older analog boards for generator gigs. So far, nothing has been fried or damaged in those situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 And for those who still have a computer with XP, it's still going to work great. Just because Microsoft stopped supporting XP doesn't mean you can't use XP any longer. (How many more updates would XP still need at this point anyway?) . This is not true. Most of the software updates render the software inoperable on XP machines, if you need a new printer or scanner, or wi-fi router, it's unlikely to work on an older machine, especially XP. Even many of the new security software suites no longer run (or do what they should do functionally) on XP. I can't get XP drivers for a lot of my newer hardware (including my 3 year old printer). XP is functionally obsolete for anything that requires a connection to the present. and this comes from a guy who likes XP very much. Yes, there is a lot of legacy hardware running industrial appplications, but this requires that the legacy platform be maintained as a system and not just an XP box. It is becoming more and more difficult to maintain XP platforms without legacy skills. Not unlile supporting legacy mainframe platforms and software that large institutional businesses use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 This is not true. Most of the software updates render the software inoperable on XP machines, if you need a new printer or scanner, or wi-fi router, it's unlikely to work on an older machine, especially XP. Even many of the new security software suites no longer run (or do what they should do functionally) on XP. I can't get XP drivers for a lot of my newer hardware (including my 3 year old printer). XP is functionally obsolete for anything that requires a connection to the present. Yeah, but that's on the software manufacturer, not on Microsoft, right? If Behringer decides to stop providing updates for this machine to make it compatible with older iPads, then that's one thing to think about, I suppose. Of course, nothing guarantees they'll support these products forever. And again, this seems like a product geared towards the guy who is getting a new tablet or phone every few years anyway. Not the guy who wants this to be the last mixer, software, tablet and outboard gear he ever purchases. If somebody buys this today to use with his iPad3 and then 10 years from now is complaining that he can't get software updates for iPad3 and the battery in the iPad doesn't hold power any longer....well, then yeah----that's probably a guy who should have stuck with his analog Peavey mixer and effects rack. I dunno. I guess maybe being a keyboard player I just come from a different perspective with this stuff than most. For the 35 years I've been doing this back when I bought my first Prophet 5, the MO has been to spend a couple thousand dollars on the latest/greatest board knowing full well there would be bigger and better stuff coming along in a few years. If you weren't replacing your main keyboards every 5 years or so, you were not getting full functionality out of the available technology. While wanting to get the most out of the keyboards I bought, I still looked forward to what the new technology would bring as well. And all my old stuff---most of which I still own---is both still very usable and obsolete at the same time. That stuff is still there when I need it/want it. Even though it sometimes means dealing with ancient crap like backing up my programs to cassette tape. And even now, I'm excited to think what newer, cooler stuff will be available in a few years. Part of me WANTS my old stuff to become somewhat obsolete. On the other hand, there's always those guys who still insist on playing B3s through Leslies even though they stopped making those decades ago because he simply can't do with modern synths what he does with his old stuff the way he prefers to do it. Nothing wrong with that either. As long as your back doesn't give out, anyway. But really? Is the complaint here that this is a $500 digital mixer system that might not be fully usable in 10 years? Yeah, it'll probably be in the trash heap next to my $500 42" 1080p flatscreen and my $500 PC running Windows 8. For pete's sake, I HOPE they've got different/better stuff 10 years from now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 Or, for the guys who got caught with the upgrade to the new i-device connector making their old digital mixer (or whatever) no longer compatable. I'm also not all that cool with the disposable society, throwing on the trash heap is really so wrong in the bigger scheme. ALL of my designs are intended to be fully compatable and functional for well over 10 years, many are still out there touring in spite of being "old". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 3, 2014 Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 Or' date=' for the guys who got caught with the upgrade to the new i-device connector making their old digital mixer (or whatever) no longer compatable. [/quote'] Well, there are usually connector/adapters for that. I'm also not all that cool with the disposable society, throwing on the trash heap is really so wrong in the bigger scheme. ALL of my designs are intended to be fully compatable and functional for well over 10 years, many are still out there touring in spite of being "old". Yeah, all sorts of old stuff is out there in all sorts of product catagories. People use what they want for the reasons they want. And most likely a lot of the newer stuff will still find a way to be "out there" in spite of being old 10 years from now as well, I would imagine But new and possibly "disposable" doesn't make something bad in and off itself either. Anyone is free to be cool or not cool with whatever they choose for their own reasons. But, at the same time, the modern world is also what it is. I get the whole sticking with what you know, what works for you, and what you think will get you the best long-term bang out of your buck thing. That's all good. But so is technology moving forward. Even if that means that something that is State of The Art today won't be so in just a few years. In the keyboard world, there are guys who use all sorts of stuff for all sorts of reasons. Old and new. At the same time, some guy who gets hired for a pick up gig with a major artist who shows up with a Prophet 5 and a DX7 probably isn't going to get as much work as the guy who shows up with the latest/greatest workstations out there. Regardless of how well he plays those things. Technology just moves certain things forward. Small format guys can and will buy whatever works/whatever they can afford. But it also seems like the guys making their living with a $2,800 X32 in their system are probably going to be upgrading to the Y32 and the Z32 and whatever else replaces today's models every few years. I'm not so sure there's anything really wrong with that though. Mixers have basically been the same technology for decades now. That's fine because they've been great and still are. But now, like replacing that grand piano with a keyboard workstation, new technologies exist that open up a whole new world for how people will be able to mix live music. That's all pretty cool, IMO. We're at the beginning stages of this technology. One can only imagine what things will be like in another 20 years. Even if that does mean these new $500 work-with-your-tablet jobbies will be obsolete as a result. And still nothing beats a grand piano in many situations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 3, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 3, 2014 The X line of Behringer mixers is not like Window XP for many reasons. The most important reason is that the interface to the unit is published and based on an open standard. What this means is that anyone who wants to can simply implement the controls in their own program on whatever OS they want to do it in. The "physical interface" that must be kept compatible is Ethernet, and Ethernet has been the most stable communication interface in history ..... and looks to be remaining that way for any conceivable future I am aware of.... and I work in an industry that watches this technology closely. The 3rd party "Mixing Station" Android app that many use with Behringer X32 line mixers is a prime example of how a "guy sitting at home" can create a complete interface for a digital mixer. There is no reason that a digital mixer with an open interface would ever become unusable because of technology moving forward in tablets or PC's that I can see. As for the internals of a digital mixer, I don't see what there is in there that would ever go bad outside of the power supply. The thing has no moving parts. As long as the protective circuitry is well designed for the analog inputs and outputs, there should never be anything to replace. My venerable MixWiz DX2 was obsolete in that if anything went wrong, I was told that parts were no longer made. Sure, I could pretty much MAKE a channel strip for that mixer with parts from DigiKey if I really had the desire to do so, but I really don't. I am not seeing the arguement that digital mixers without a physical interface are somehow more prone to short life than an analog mixer. In fact, I can think of many reasons why this kind of digital mixer will last longer than an analog mixer. Now .... digital mixers with physical interfaces .... different story. Motorized faders, encoders, and buttons all can (and do) fail. Mixing while eating Doritos and an ice cream sandwich might do a number on any board with physical interfaces ..... and because digital mixers tend to have multiple uses for faders, those faders are operated much more frequently than their analog counterparts .... and they have a motor where their analog counterparts do not. They are inherently more likely to fail because of these issues. This last issue was one of the main reasons I ended up with an X32 Rack. I have a life time warranty on my faders! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 4, 2014 Members Share Posted October 4, 2014 First of all, every component on your mix wiz dx2 is still available from a variety of sources (I even stock most of them) so that's not accurate. Second, just looking at apple I-phones, I has to upgrade because I was forced to migrate to the newer OS and that does not run effectively or efficiently on the older phones. I didn't have any problems with the older phone other than it became "sub-functional". The robustness of the inexpensive digital consumer level audio devices is not as good as their analog counterparts. 8 mil or less traces and spaces for that kind of gear is pretty marginal, whereas the more conventional gear centers at 10 mil or greater. My own baseline default is 20 mil/15 mil with oversized pads and thru-plated holes, making for really tough duty construction. Combine with real commercial grade connectors and you have a product with an expected 15-20 year life cycle at 100% functionality. No need to call home to the mothership for updates either as it doesn't degrade or get viruses! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 4, 2014 Members Share Posted October 4, 2014 FWIW - I had the same "no longer functional" problem with my iPad-1 after about 5 years of use. I foolishly upgraded it to iOS 5 or 6 and it is almost useless now, it is so slow. So I use it for menial tasks, like looking up chords on the internet or slowing down songs to learn them, and use my iPad Air for the important things, like e-mail Facebook. If I bought a digital mixer that depended on an iPad, I would stop upgrading the iPad at some point (while it still worked), but this might mean no more updates for the mixer either. All that said, Behringer does not depend on an iPad, unlike the Mackie DL1608. They have eliminated this dependency in two ways: 1) hardware interface uses a standard which will be supported for a LONG time, 2) they have released details of their OSC protocol implementation which is sufficient to allow third parties to build software for their platform. Provided they move enough units, and the electronics are reliable, I predict that there will be support from either Behringer or the aftermarket for this mixer for at least 10 years. BTW, I hear that the latest X32 firmware now supports MIDAS digital stage boxes, like the DL151. I know a couple of guys doing sound locally who are putting X32s on stage and treating them exactly like a snake box, then mixing from the bar. They love them. Being a computer guy, I keep waiting for the gig-ruining-failure, but I haven't heard about one yet. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 4, 2014 Members Share Posted October 4, 2014 I know a couple of guys doing sound locally who are putting X32s on stage and treating them exactly like a snake box, then mixing from the bar. They love them. Being a computer guy, I keep waiting for the gig-ruining-failure, but I haven't heard about one yet. Wes That's basically what our regular sound guy is doing now with two X32 Racks. Puts one on each side of the stage and uses them together. Since an X32 is only $300 more than the S16 digital snake, it seems like a pretty smart move since the 2nd rack could also serve as a backup in an emergency. (We only use 19 channels as it is. Toms could be sub-mixed through a small mixer in such an instance.) Tonight we try out individual monitoring for everyone using iPhones and iPads for the first time. Then we'll probably duplicate the two X32s ourselves so we can use the same system for gigs when he isn't available to do sound for us, but we'll have his same mix dialed in for other engineers to start from. Not going to miss dragging around a full sized console, rack of outboard gear, the 100 ft 24 channel snake, and our onstage monitor mixer AT ALL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members agedhorse Posted October 4, 2014 Members Share Posted October 4, 2014 I may be retiring one of my a system consoles shortly, after over 16 years of pro level service without a single failure or issue. Of course it was $12k new, but was an outstanding value given it's service life and reliability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Audiopyle Sound Posted October 4, 2014 Members Share Posted October 4, 2014 That's basically what our regular sound guy is doing now with two X32 Racks. Puts one on each side of the stage and uses them together. Since an X32 is only $300 more than the S16 digital snake, it seems like a pretty smart move since the 2nd rack could also serve as a backup in an emergency. (We only use 19 channels as it is. Toms could be sub-mixed through a small mixer in such an instance.) The redundancy would be good. If you ever contemplate using the P16 monitoring system though, it would be a good idea to have a S16 stage box somewhere in the system. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 4, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 4, 2014 Hey Andy, I don't know how heavy the traces are in any of the digital mixers; however, the digital portions don't really need to be that heavy. The connectors are the exception of course. I am old school and still (mostly) like to use through hole for any external connector; however, I am being swayed by the younger engineers and suppliers lately who are advocating surface mount with stabilizing posts along with industrial adhesives. We have units in the field with both and so far haven't had any failures reported (keeping in mind that anything I design numbers in the thousands or tens of thousands usually ... so not a really big sample size.). I haven't cracked open my X32 Rack to see how things are mounted in there, but there have been very few, if any, issues reported from the field that I have heard of dealing with the connectors. The only area of concern would be the robustness of the input circuits and power supply IMHO. Considering the open interface of the X line of digital mixers, I don't see any issue with the computing interface becoming extinct. In 10 years, you will be able to get a killer tablet for $100.00 with wireless bandwidth 100 times what we have today. I think that it is entirely possible for someone who owns an X32 today to be using it 20 years from now ..... assuming they can still get faders for it. I can't see any reason for my X32 Rack to fail. The only physical control I ever touch on it is the master volume knob. There have been some reported failures in the field of people getting XLR cables stuck in the X32 line because of their locking connector (and I assume a less than physically sound XLR cable end). I worry about this, but haven't had any issues myself yet. If I do, the locks will be disappearing rather quickly if I actually have to bother myself to open the case Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 5, 2014 Members Share Posted October 5, 2014 The amount of e-garbage all this is generating is unsustainable. I get it, stuff gets outdated, consumer goods don't hold up over time and these line of boards are using a consumer piece In a mission critical spot. That said I'm looking at buying some kind of tablet mixer. I like the idea of a multi-platform interface, redundancy for the tablet would be using another tablet. So where's the cheap dmx lighting app? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 5, 2014 Members Share Posted October 5, 2014 Remember, in Behringer's case you can use a laptop instead of a tablet if that strikes your fancy. I don't understand why the other vendors haven't gone that route (open protocol). The laptop option is particularly attractive because it means you can freeze your OS in time and virtualize it in the future, so you become a lot more future-proof. Virtualization on tablets basically doesn't exist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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