Members wesg Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 I'm sure there is enough room to have the power plugged into the rackmount mixer when it is rackmounted. Even Behringer isn't that stupid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 Oh FFS, I just bought a Behringer RX1202FX this summer and have used it exactly once. $50 cheaper than the X12. Now I want an X12. I bought the RX1202FX because I couldn't find anything else at the time with the right features. Yeah, it's basically the Alesis Studio 12A (I have two of those) but with FX included. Which I wish the Alesis had. I was using the Alesis for my keyboard setup but started using the Samson SM10 instead. I realized I didn't really need EQ, and the Samson is just a single rack space instead of 3. And has more routing options. Really cool little 1-space line mixer if you ever need such a unit. I use the Studio 12A now as our "satellite" mixer when we do a cocktail set in a remote area. But I have to carry around a separate FX unit in the rack with it. Annoying. When I bought a second 12A a few years back I considered the RX1202FX but passed on it because it was Behringer. Probably a mistake now in retrospect. That unit seems to be pretty solid. At least as solid as the Alesis. The X12 looks like it's 2 or maybe even 3 rack spaces. Which would put me back into a bigger rack, but the additional features and convenience would probably be worth it. Also looks like it has Ethernet out so that if I ever have issues with the tablet or wireless, I could control it from my laptop as a backup? An X12 would also be a good "satellite" mixer for the band. Then our sound guy could mix the cocktail sets for us as well. (We do them now as a "mix-from-stage" deal for the most part.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 Hmm, cocktail sets I turn the pa off. Works surprisingly well! As for the xr18 it's still really cool. Can't decide if it should be placed where a drop snake would be and run 8ch to an amp rack. Or on top of the amp rack and still use an 8 or 12ch snake. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 Hmm, cocktail sets I turn the pa off. Works surprisingly well! Since we run keys and bass direct, (and use an Edrum kit for cocktail sets in remote locations), turning off the PA probably wouldn't work as well for us. Then again, some might argue it would be a improvement! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 Unalaska - you could put it on stage, and run it direct to powered monitors, then a 1-channel "snake" to your mono FOH amp rack. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 I'm old school, graphic eq's and power amps. I played with the demo app, looks pretty cool. There is a way to condense all 16 main faders on the screen at once which is nice. There are some small improvements that need to be made: access to the busses, numerical indicators on the gain knobs, when editing any if the gain, dynamics whatever page the channel number needs to be present so I know what I'm looking at. As far as I can tell the 6 aux outs feed the 6 xlr outs and nothing can be changed (I.e. Yamaha uses omni outs, even on the ydg mini cards you can change the outputs to be whatever). Most of the app issues I see are minor ones that are visual in nature (seeing a channel number or a value) and those should be ironed out with an update. But then again simple things can get overlooked and companies have a way of pushing back release dates for hardware too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 10, 2014 Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 My only question is where the power cord is located and the outputs. If it's in a rack and you put the rack ears on is there enough room to get a plug in since the power plug is on the side. And since the outputs on front if you have it in a rack you'll have to loop the output wires from the front to the back of the rack? So my question is if you don't have an open rack space you'd have to route it around the sides.top or bottom right? I had those questions too. I suspect there's room on the side for the power cord, and maybe it's an angled one so it's more flush. As far as the input/outputs go (I like mine all in the back) I might try to figure out a way to mount it in reverse. Or yes...get right-angled connectors and leave a space under-over it. I need a half-space for my guitar wireless receiver--- I could run the cables back under next to that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 10, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 The reason that dedicated mixing tablets haven't been made is that it is very hard to compete in price with samsung (who sells things in the millions) when you only sell things in the thousands. It is also a PITA for warranty ..... (ie "what do you mean I can't drop it in the bath tub and still expect it to work?"). Also, it is a nice marketing twist to sell the mixer at a lower price and require an external surface to mix with. It looks like your mixer costs less that way. At least the X32's model of using an open interface insures that your mixer isn't going to become obsolete because Behringer doesn't make an app for the current operating systems or hardware. Others like Mackie have not only tied you to their app, but to specific form factors of 3rd party hardware .... not so smart. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 10, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 10, 2014 BTW, the XR18 is listed at $700.00 vs the X18 at $800.00. That is a very compelling price for the XR18! In a year I wouldn't be surprised if you could pick one of these up for $500-$600 new. I think that Behringer is going to sell TONS of these little mixers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 11, 2014 Members Share Posted October 11, 2014 It'd be great if there was a 3rd party hardware surface that had say 8 faders, some signal LEDs, a few virtual knobs and wifi. Have a touch screen so we could see what's being controlled. You could taylor the surface to whatever mixer by using blocks of 8 controls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 11, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 11, 2014 Perhaps something like this? http://www.behringer.com/EN/products/X-TOUCH.aspx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 11, 2014 Members Share Posted October 11, 2014 I would imagine as these sorts of mixers become the norm, we will see a lot more third party and standardized controllers and interface options. I'm reminded again of the early days of synths with all sorts of oddball devices. I had a proprietary "keytar" for my Prophet 5 that ran via control voltage. This was pre-midi. Kinda cool except it overheated the Prophet 5 if I ever left it connected for more than 10 minutes or so... Then eventually midi came along and standardized everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 13, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted October 13, 2014 All this said, I think we're overblowing some of it. The software/hardware argument is largely weak. It's a case of wanting to have your cake and eat it too. For instance, Apple forced developers to IOS7 and above for software for my now sold DL1608. My original ipad would only run IOS 5. I was faced with either upgrading my software and only using my newer ipad or foregoing all future upgrades and maintaining the use of both ipads. Mackie owed me no other features beyond what I initially paid for and the board functioned fine so long as I stayed with older software. Yes, I was being tempted and taunted by the new bells and whistles from the latest release, but that's no different than buying a car then salivating over next years model. We just aren't used to it in this space. Well, it's just a discussion that's gone on for a few days, not sure whether that qualifies it as overblown. It's definitely surpassed the attention span of the average 20-something. The concern with support isn't about getting newer and better, it's about getting a reload of the same old same old you've been running, that's gone off support. Back in the day, you had disks, and then CD's. Now everything is downloaded, so it's difficult and sometimes impossible to save a copy of the software to any place but the original target. So if the mfg. drops support and no longer has the software available, you're forced to make another move. This is the "being held hostage" situation that was mentioned earlier. Sometimes it's a moot point, sometimes it doesn't happen this way, etc. But the point is that it's something I'd rather not have any concern with at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 13, 2014 Members Share Posted October 13, 2014 This is the "being held hostage" situation that was mentioned earlier. Sometimes it's a moot point, sometimes it doesn't happen this way, etc. But the point is that it's something I'd rather not have any concern with at all. But one is similarly "held hostage" by the limitations of every product ever made and sold, aren't they? At some point the discussion simply becomes not being happy that these newer devices aren't something else. Yes, the software isn't available on disc and they don't have physical faders. Well, they don't weigh fish or pick my kid up from school for me either. They are what they are. They are either a good product at a good value for someone, or they are not. For me, the idea of a small mixer that operates using a tablet I WILL OWN REGARDLESS is pretty cool considering I can do things with it I can't do with any other mixer I'm aware of. At least nowhere near that price point. That, in a few years, it might end up in my garage on top of that really cool keyboard I bought in 1995 that is now mostly obsolete and has been replaced by something newer and better and cheaper? I'll take that chance. Because I feel very certain the amount of use I WILL be able to get out of it will be more than worth the purchase price. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members OneEng Posted October 14, 2014 Author Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 Well, it's just a discussion that's gone on for a few days, not sure whether that qualifies it as overblown. It's definitely surpassed the attention span of the average 20-something. The concern with support isn't about getting newer and better, it's about getting a reload of the same old same old you've been running, that's gone off support. Back in the day, you had disks, and then CD's. Now everything is downloaded, so it's difficult and sometimes impossible to save a copy of the software to any place but the original target. So if the mfg. drops support and no longer has the software available, you're forced to make another move. This is the "being held hostage" situation that was mentioned earlier. Sometimes it's a moot point, sometimes it doesn't happen this way, etc. But the point is that it's something I'd rather not have any concern with at all. Why can't you put the software on a disk? I have several older versions of the Behringer software and firmware saved on disk and backed up. I also have a copy of the Android software backed up even though I don't use Android. I am feeling pretty safe on this front. I can run on anything Android 4.0 or higher, any PC back to Windows XP, Linux, Mac, any iPad (I would have to use firmware 1.15 and older versions of the apps to use the iPad 1, but it would still work). Since the interface to these devices is published and open source, I could actually write my on UI on any device I wanted in a pinch. I don't know Craig. It seems pretty safe to me. Am I missing something? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 14, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 Why can't you put the software on a disk? Can the typical user back up iOS 6.1, for instance, to disk? Is it available from Apple for download? I've seen nothing in Apple's support to indicate that I could do this. They only offer the Cloud, or iTunes, and only for apps and user data, not the iOS firmware. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 14, 2014 Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 Apple has always been annoyingly propietary about so much of what they do. Which is one reason why it's a good thing these mixers aren't limited to being used only with Apple tablets. If backing up the OS to disk is a big concern, then obviously using an Apple tablet wouldn't be advisable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 14, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 I picked Apple for the example because there are so many out there, and there are a lot of mixers with an i-Something interface. I've always found it curiously fascinating that Apple has managed to succeed wildly with so much proprietary technology, where Sony failed miserably at the same tactic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 14, 2014 Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 I picked Apple for the example because there are so many out there, and there are a lot of mixers with an i-Something interface. We've already discussed the 'fail' of Mackie making an Apple-only mixer. I predict a similar fate for any others who would do the same thing. There are just so many other options out there now, and that will only continue to grow. Apple stuff is great (I'm a fan myself), but you have to be willing to play by their rules if you want to go that route. Many are fine with that and aren't going to care about backing up the OS. Others will be glad they have other tablet options. I've always found it curiously fascinating that Apple has managed to succeed wildly with so much proprietary technology, where Sony failed miserably at the same tactic. I always thought the same thing about Sony and Apple. There are probably a lot of contributing factors but the biggest one, IMO, is brand marketing. Apple was able to make their stuff 'cool' and unique in a way Sony was never able to. Part of that was due to the fact that they were first out with so many innovative products. But they were always able to make their stuff seem "better" than the others and therefore worth the extra cost and trouble. And once you're sucked into their universe you're kind of stuck there. Whether they are able to continue to do that into the future remains to be seen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 14, 2014 Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 Where Apple was unique, (and sort of lucked out, IMO), is in the fact that while they nearly went completely under by being so proprietary in the 1990s, they were still able to maintain a reputation of being 'better' because the Mac was so often the choice of professionals. It was the computer graphics artists used. It was a niche market, but one most people sought to be a part of---a lot of people wanted a Mac, they just couldn't really afford one. So when they were able to break out with new products, they had that reputation of quality behind them that helped lift those new products. And--whether by luck or by design---that Apple cache was always a bit of a lifestyle as well. The people who owned Apple stuff were their own breed. Can anyone imagine there being a successful Sony Store? Apple was always something unto itself. Sony never had that. They were always just Sony and everybody had a Sony something-or-other which was never really that much better than so many other brands on the market. There was no "lifestyle" associated with owning a Betamax over a VHS. So the fact that it was a superior product didn't matter much to most folks. It was still just a Sony. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 14, 2014 Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 Yep. I'm a huge fan of Apple from a usuability POV but their products absolutely have a limited lifespan unless you are willing to stop upgrading them (and buy the replacement when it is still available). Getting an Android tablet 10 years from now which can run Android 4.2 will be almost as difficult as getting an iPad which can run iOS 6. That is why it is so important to demand open protocols and so on from the mixer vendors. We need a robust ecosystem, not a consumer appliance. Recompiling an Open-Source Linux application on a machine 10 years from now will probably be a piece of cake...and if not, it can be fixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Unalaska Posted October 14, 2014 Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 Fwiw behringer is not the only company making an tablet only mixer, SM Audio has a UMix mixer with its own wifi using html5. Enter an IP address in chrome or whatever and the interface shows up. And presonus of course. Will we see yamaha do the same? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Vito Corleone Posted October 14, 2014 Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 Fwiw behringer is not the only company making an tablet only mixer, SM Audio has a UMix mixer with its own wifi using html5. Enter an IP address in chrome or whatever and the interface shows up. And presonus of course. Will we see yamaha do the same? I think we'll see everyone do the same in one form or another eventually. As tablets and smartphones become more and more of a device that virtually everyone carries with them and uses, then manufacturers making hardware that utilizes these devices will become more common as well. It isn't just audio equipment. My car has apps that you can control from the touchscreen in the dash that it accesses via an app on my phone. TV sets and mobile devices are now integrated. The more ubiquitous the personal tablet becomes, the more it makes sense for manufacturers to take advantage of this and create affordable hardware that integrates with those tablets. The winners will be the companies who make hardware that is the most versatile and adaptable. When the only time their hardware becomes obsolete is when they are able to add new features to it that you just can't live without. Not because the interfaces with the tablets no longer are functional. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members wesg Posted October 14, 2014 Members Share Posted October 14, 2014 An HTML5 interface is a fantastic way of preserving long-term functionality. Way to go, SM Audio! I posited months ago in this forum that an HTML5 UI was possible and lamented the lack of market availability. The greatest, non-obvious, bonus for an HTML5 UI is that it presents a complete "API" of sorts that 3rd party developers can use, even without documentation. Although, many vendors might try to obsfuscate their code. But that's the worst they can do. They still have to be compatible with web browsers. Wes Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CMS Author Craig Vecchione Posted October 14, 2014 CMS Author Share Posted October 14, 2014 We've already discussed the 'fail' of Mackie making an Apple-only mixer. I predict a similar fate for any others who would do the same thing. There are just so many other options out there now, and that will only continue to grow. Apple stuff is great (I'm a fan myself), but you have to be willing to play by their rules if you want to go that route. Many are fine with that and aren't going to care about backing up the OS. Others will be glad they have other tablet options. I always thought the same thing about Sony and Apple. There are probably a lot of contributing factors but the biggest one, IMO, is brand marketing. Apple was able to make their stuff 'cool' and unique in a way Sony was never able to. Part of that was due to the fact that they were first out with so many innovative products. But they were always able to make their stuff seem "better" than the others and therefore worth the extra cost and trouble. And once you're sucked into their universe you're kind of stuck there. Whether they are able to continue to do that into the future remains to be seen. Good question. Sony was a leader and an innovator, and certainly was the go-to brand for electronics. Everyone did an end-run around the Betamax, and consumers somehow forgot that the format was (slightly) superior and more compact than VHS. Looking at Apple, they made their stuff cool and "better", but I'm seeing nothing exciting in the iPhone 6 at all, and I'll be interested to see if the new iPad is also just a larger tablet with the same shortcomings as the older models. Samsung especially seems to be making deep inroads with their tablets, so it'll be interesting to see Apple's future. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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