sore fingers - need urgent help

[WRGKMC]

My post was directed towards most of the working musicians I know. Of course there are plenty of people who have zero issues late into life. I'd call them the luckier ones. My analogy was aimed at the general population of working musicians that usually follow the same curve as many athletes do. Their prime performance years are between 18 to 35 just like most athletes. I thought I made it clear in that post. Most musicians do have the advantage of playing smarter as they age so yes, their playing skills may improve, but the ability to perform for a living grinding out gigs night after night becomes much more difficult.

 

This really is no different then any other profession. The body is going to age and slow down. If you're a dedicated musician you will fight the effects as long as you live but few have the same stamina and healing powers in their mid 40's and beyond that they had when the were younger and if you compound that with poor playing techniques, practice habits and a neck that doesn't fit well you can have permanent injury that doesn't heal.

[Surrealistic]

Sorry WRGKMC but I tried to say this nicely, now I'm just going to have to call it what it is.

 

As I said, sorry but it's just total bollocks.

 

I don't know anyone who was a better player in their 20s or 30s than they became in their 40s or 50s. The occasional unlucky one might get issues with RSI or arthritis or carpal tunnel but MOST do not

[Steve2112]

Some good advice for the newbie!

 

On a serious note....do not play until or with pain! It's your body telling you something is wrong. Muscle pain is way different than joint/wrist pain. That is a quick way to carpal tunnel/arthritis/ etc.

 

As was noted...play with a light touch, don't lock your wrist and elbow. You should be able to swing your elbow in an arc. Flex your wrist as well. Doesn't hurt to do some finger/wrist stretches. Start playing with some easy scales and chords...then progress your lessons to more difficult chores. Take a quick break every half hour/or so.

[Virgman]

Disclaimer: I am not a Doctor but play one on HC. Members are advised to consult their physician before beginning any guitar exercising program.

[WRGKMC]

Sorry WRGKMC but I tried to say this nicely, now I'm just going to have to call it what it is.

 

As I said, sorry but it's just total bollocks.

 

I don't know anyone who was a better player in their 20s or 30s than they became in their 40s or 50s. The occasional unlucky one might get issues with RSI or arthritis or carpal tunnel but MOST do not

 

Sorry you feel that way but I still think you are misunderstanding my post.

 

This has Zero I mean "Dead Zero" to do with playing skill. Can you not separate the skill from the physical endurance aspect????

 

Lets put it this way. Go visit a working band with older guys who been doing it all their life.

Ask them how they feel the next day after a gig at their age in comparison to when they were young.

I don't know "any" older musicians who will honestly tell you they feel as well physically after a gig when they are older in comparison to when they were young.

 

Its not just the hands, it can be a sore back from moving gear and wearing a guitar all night, being on the feet all night. When you're young you have no problem just springing out of bed doing it day after day with no aches, pains, inflammation etc. When you're older its more like you were steam rolled and motivating yourself back up takes longer. Its not that you don't heal, its just slower.

[Surrealistic]

Physically in lots of ways I can see your point WRGKMC. If I wanted to leap about across the stage I'd feel it the next day. If I have to lug tons of heavy equipment around I feel it the next day. If I wanted to party until 3am and then get up at 5am I'd feel it, whereas when I was a kid I'd brush it off.

 

None of that effects my ability to play though. My dexterity, speed and precision are better, not worse than they were at 16. In other words, aging affects us in lots of ways, but not in ways that mean a guitarist has a short "high performance lifespan" or that when they get into their 40s and 50s they experience the issues you mentioned.

[knotty]

 

Anyone can measure their hand size just like they'd measure their feet to fit shoes. All you need is one of those cloth type tape measurers used for measuring your waistline. You place it in your hand like you would the back of your neck and measure between your thumb joint and second joint of your first finger. In my case its about 3". You then take the tape measure and measure the back of the neck from fret end to fret end and see what you come up with. If its larger you'll be fighting the neck, trying to get to the low strings. If its smaller you'll have excess strain on the back of your hands.

 

 

I have never heard of this, and cant find it with a quick google.

Anyone else come across it or have more info?

 

[WRGKMC]

 

I have never heard of this, and cant find it with a quick google.

Anyone else come across it or have more info?

 

My first musical instructor back in 1967 taught me that trick. He owned a music store and was a master Luthier in town. Had people bring instruments to him from all over the state. I learned it when I used to work for him part time doing electronics repairs. Tricks like that were passed on to apprentices back then.

 

He's likely long gone by now so I don't think he's mind. Pretty nifty secret though because it really does work. Maybe some instrument manufacturers know about it when they build necks.

 

I know if I were doing a custom build for someone it would be one of those things I measure so I know the neck fits them like a glove, then you'd just have to let them choose a C, D or V shape back.

 

Ah, I did find something close at Warmouth. They don't tell you to actually measure it which is easy to do but they do tell you its best to have a good fit with neither too much or too little. http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/faq1.aspx

 

Back contour is the profile or grip shape of the neck. How much wood does it take to fill up your hand? Too little equates to quicker hand fatigue. Too much is even worse, you can't reach around it. There is much more personal preference to Back contour choice than nut width. The selection criteria however is the same. Check out your friends guitars. Measure them and base your choice accordingly".

 

 

[knotty]

 

My first musical instructor back in 1967 taught me that trick. He owned a music store and was a master Luthier in town. Had people bring instruments to him from all over the state. I learned it when I used to work for him part time doing electronics repairs. Tricks like that were passed on to apprentices back then.

 

He's likely long gone by now so I don't think he's mind. Pretty nifty secret though because it really does work. Maybe some instrument manufacturers know about it when they build necks.

 

I know if I were doing a custom build for someone it would be one of those things I measure so I know the neck fits them like a glove, then you'd just have to let them choose a C, D or V shape back.

 

Ah, I did find something close at Warmouth. They don't tell you to actually measure it which is easy to do but they do tell you its best to have a good fit with neither too much or too little. http://www.warmoth.com/Guitar/Necks/faq1.aspx

 

Back contour is the profile or grip shape of the neck. How much wood does it take to fill up your hand? Too little equates to quicker hand fatigue. Too much is even worse, you can't reach around it. There is much more personal preference to Back contour choice than nut width. The selection criteria however is the same. Check out your friends guitars. Measure them and base your choice accordingly".

 

I can see a degree of logic to it but dont see how it maps in with neck contours as well.

If it works why dont is see any custom fitting on manufacturers web sites?

[onelife]

Lets put it this way. Go visit a working band with older guys who been doing it all their life.

Ask them how they feel the next day after a gig at their age in comparison to when they were young.

I don't know "any" older musicians who will honestly tell you they feel as well physically after a gig when they are older in comparison to when they were young.

 

"Please allow me to introduce myself... "

 

I'm older now than I have ever been and I feel better than I ever have (and I'm probably at least as old as you are).

 

I've always been conscious of what I eat and I adopted the Yogic lifestyle several years ago after a serious bout of tendentious.

[Emory]

Play a Les Paul when young and have strong shoulders, a thinline tele when you are older. Perhaps aging process leads one to think there is more to music than cranking out a thousand notes per minute? Segovia could still kick it pretty well when old....

[Virgman]

It's called arthritis folks.

[WRGKMC]

I can see a degree of logic to it but dont see how it maps in with neck contours as well.

If it works why dont is see any custom fitting on manufacturers web sites?

 

Good question I cant answer. If you try it you'll see it makes perfect sense because it does take into account the radius shape.

I suppose its one of those things where manufacturers make what they want to make, and you as a buyer have to choose what's available.

 

I'm sure many Luthiers build necks that fit their own hands and aren't concerned if it will fit others. If its too fat they just shave a little more off till they get that ideal fit. I only know about 5 really great Luthiers so I can only base my opinion on those and what I've done myself as a builder.

 

My buddy got a 6 string bass built by Bolin who builds guitars for ZZ Top and others. He told him exactly what he wanted and has a neck contour amazingly similar to the Peavey 5 string he had. I'm sure many luthiers use the method of copying artists preferences based on other instruments they own. I know I would myself.

 

If I had a reason to have a custom build The #1 item on the list would be a perfect neck fit. I have learned to do that myself. I've taken many store bought necks and removed neck material to get a better fit and the new guitars I buy are close enough where I don't need to jack with them.

 

You also have the fact that average hands are around 8" from the wrist joint to the end of the center finger. Many manufacturer stick with average sizes that accommodate the widest range of musicians with a few variances that change the circumference up to a half inch either way for larger or smaller hands. String spacing is less varied then neck back contoured. There are some very wide necks for people with fat fingers but here again there are mostly narrow medium and wide fretboards. Having too many choices here would jack with all the hardware manufacturers who stick with standard sizes like bridges, pickups and nuts that have standard spacing.

 

On top of that you can adapt to play on just about anything. I can play anything from the fattest bass necks down to a violin. String height and action can make up for some of that as well. I do have my favorites that allow me maximum comfort and speed so I'll usually choose those to play most of the time.

 

Someone looking for that perfect fit has the option of just trying everything made until they find that perfect custom fit. I know some people with amazingly small or large hands who have an extremely hard time finding the right sized necks so their options are more limited. When I used to teach kids I'd tell parents what might be best for their hand sizes. Otherwise the kids would become discouraged trying to wrap their hands around some fat log of a neck and unable to get to the notes. You can just keep trying necks till you find the right shape and size, or save some time and measure that distance so you know exactly what range of necks you need then settle with for the closest fit.

 

When I visit a music store I can go down a row of say 50 guitars within a few minutes and know exactly which ones are a close fit just by griping the neck of each. Then if there's 10 in my range I'd have to decide on all the other aspects in making a choice.

 

When you buy on line its a crap shoot. It would surely make buying instrument on line a whole lot easier if manufacturers provided that one measurement. Another way would be to have a 1:1 cross section you could print out to measure your hand. I don't know of anyone who buys shoes on line without knowing their size?

 

But, What happens if that instrument becomes a best seller? Do you think every other manufacturer would copy that exact same contour to cash in? Humm. Manufacturers are jealous gods who are in competition with each other and they currently get more vanity sales then they do down to earth ergonomics. Maybe that will change if there are enough people looking for that first.

[WRGKMC]

 

"Please allow me to introduce myself... "

 

I'm older now than I have ever been and I feel better than I ever have (and I'm probably at least as old as you are).

 

I've always been conscious of what I eat and I adopted the Yogic lifestyle several years ago after a serious bout of tendentious.

 

 

I'm sure most of the people who visit here and read these posts are guitar players who are still active players. If you been around awhile and have known many musicians during your lifetime, how many of them are still playing professionally? We tend to focus on the here and now as musicians because music is a here and now thing that occurs in real time. I know dozens of musicians who gave up because they just couldn't hack playing any more because of health issues with backs or hands. I also tended many funerals of talented musicians who didn't live healthy life styles and pushed themselves past their limits using artificial fuels. Healthy lifestyles do become more critical if you love the art enough to care about creating it well.

 

Play a Les Paul when young and have strong shoulders, a thinline tele when you are older. Perhaps aging process leads one to think there is more to music than cranking out a thousand notes per minute? Segovia could still kick it pretty well when old....

 

Segovia likely learn many lessons from the great masters that go beyond the notes themselves. Anyone whose studies their lives can learn lessons that apply today. Mozart for example dies at an extremely young age. His level of was so just so high he burnt out like a light bulb. Art "can" be just as addictive as a drug to many and just as dangerous to their health if they don't have the discipline to keep it in check. The drive to obtain perfection is often a fleeting target in both performing and composing. Those who last the longest may have a combination of solid work ethics, genetics, and wisdom, but the history of music is littered with casualties of one form or another. Look at how may modern musicians dies young or had very short careers.

[Steve2112]

Disclaimer: I am not a Doctor but play one on HC. Members are advised to consult their physician before beginning any guitar exercising program.

 

Or it could be the some players know even more about what guitar playing can do physically than some doctors. lol

[onelife]

 

 

I'm sure most of the people who visit here and read these posts are guitar players who are still active players. If you been around awhile and have known many musicians during your lifetime, how many of them are still playing professionally? We tend to focus on the here and now as musicians because music is a here and now thing that occurs in real time. I know dozens of musicians who gave up because they just couldn't hack playing any more because of health issues with backs or hands. I also tended many funerals of talented musicians who didn't live healthy life styles and pushed themselves past their limits using artificial fuels. Healthy lifestyles do become more critical if you love the art enough to care about creating it well.

 

I'm still active as a guitarist and a piano player and I find it easier to play both instruments now than when I was younger. Perhaps it just takes a while to discover how easy it really is.

 

I was fortunate to discover, while I was still in my twenties, that music is a connection to The Divine. Although I did experiment with some psychedelics when it was all the rage I generally stayed away from the artificial fuels and attempted to connect the music with the listener on a spiritual level.

 

I supposed musicians are more susceptible to the ravages of alcohol because it is one of the few professions where you are actually encouraged to drink on the job.

 

I encourage younger players to adopt a healthy lifestyle early on even though, as one of my students said to me recently, "it's not something I'm concerned about right now."

 

 

[RifferDave]

This the perfect example of "no pain, no gain". The two hurdles of learning to play and completely unavoidable. No shortcuts. The finger tip pain is caused by friction. Your are killing skin. Necessary to develop the wonderful little pillows called callouses. If you persevere properly, you'll develop them. Play/rest, play/rest, repeat. Depends on how much pain you can take. You don't want to cause bleeding, though. Pain number two? Experienced during barre chords, the full ones; first finger all the way across the fretboard and the other fingers placed appropriately as for an A chord at the fifth fret. You need to apply enough pressure to allow the notes to ring clearly. Over a period of time, you can start to feel an ache in your palm, You should release this and rest. Again its a play/rest scenario, that you must repeat in this case to develop hand strength. But this involves the tendons in the palm. You must be careful with this when first starting out.