Avid Eleven Rack Guitar Processor/Computer Interface - Now with Conclusions

[ContraStudio]

 

Originally Posted by Parker Fly

ContraStudio--I would recommend that you go to the AVID site and check out the Eleven Rack User Group (All Things Guitar) and check out the thread "Tunes and Tones".

 

Well after 2 hours of going through the tones I ran into this guys post/link to his video demo on youtube.

Well this pretty much sold 11R to me......

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by Mats Nermark

Hi Hiro,

Why did Avid decide to handicap the unit this way?

Cheers,

Mats N

 

A lot of the reasons have to do with how we organize our products for the extremely wide range of customers we have (enthusiasts to high end professionals). We also have to consider product costs so we can sell it at a price that makes sense for the group of customers we're targeting. The third concern is the qualification or test time required to make sure Eleven Rack works reliably with all 3 versions of software (MP, LE, & HD) as well as all the related HD or MP hardware and host systems.

In the end, the right play was to make sure the important Elven Rack specific features in Pro Tools like the control window and embedded settings worked using all versions of Pro Tools. Getting audio to and from Eleven Rack could be accomplished using the analog or digital I/O. It's less convenient than plugging into a DigiLink connector but most of the functionality is there.

Hiro

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

A lot of the reasons have to do with how we organize our products for the extremely wide range of customers we have (enthusiasts to high end professionals). We also have to consider product costs so we can sell it at a price that makes sense for the group of customers we're targeting. The third concern is the qualification or test time required to make sure Eleven Rack works reliably with all 3 versions of software (MP, LE, & HD) as well as all the related HD or MP hardware and host systems.

In the end, the right play was to make sure the important Elven Rack specific features in Pro Tools like the control window and embedded settings worked using all versions of Pro Tools. Getting audio to and from Eleven Rack could be accomplished using the analog or digital I/O. It's less convenient than plugging into a DigiLink connector but most of the functionality is there.

Hiro

 

Hi Hiro,

Thanks for the eloquent and understandable answer. English is not my native language so I always appreciate clarity when people write. You also cleared up the misunderstanding I had that only PT LE could use the embedded settings and the control window. Thanks!

This is not part of the answer but I still would like to congratulate you on the "feel" of playing the 11R. Of all the direct recording devices I've tried (almost all of them since the Rockman came out), IMHO the 11R has the most authentic feel of all of them. That's why I'm very much hoping for an amp addition update.

Cheers,

Mats N

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by Mats Nermark

Hi Hiro and Craig,

Great to see a Pro Reviw of this unit. I have tried it and wonder the following:

1. Why are the so few models of clean amps? I do need a model for high headroom clean duties like funk and country. A Twin would be nice. Did I miss that?

2. Why is there no real stereo chorus?

3. Why is there no stereo delay?

4. Will there be updates to the 11R? Not just bug fixes but new FX and amp models? If no, why not? If yes, how will they be distributed and what approximate cost? I understand both business models. I buy Boss products for what they are not expecting more but I buy software with a definite expectation of updates and this product can belong in either camp.

5. Why did you decide to make it possible to run the editor in PT only and not as a general VST plugin or, even better, a stand-alone app?

Looking very much forward to this test.

Cheers,

Mats N

PS. I absolutely loved the feel of the 11R and the models of the Flexi and AC30 left me wanting one.

 

I'm pleased to say that we do have a Twin in there! I love combining it with the 4x12 Greenbacks.

The C1 Chorus functions in stereo just like the original Boss CE-1 we based it on. However, you have to apply it after the amp & cab to take advantage of the stereo function. All processing upstream of the amp is mono.

The product was designed to be upgradable so firmware updates are something we are definitely considering. I'm unfortunately not in a position to disclose timing or pricing information.

Limiting the control window/editor to Pro Tools was more of a matter of what we could accomplish in the time we had making the product. I think the standalone app idea is great and we're giving it a lot of thought.

We're looking into the stereo delay as well. There was a deliberate emphasis on 'vintage' amps and effects for the original release.

BTW: For you guys that have feature requests or ideas on how we could make the product better, I just set up an Eleven Rack category on our Pro Tools IdeaScale website. Here you can submit your requests and vote/comment on others. It's a great means for me to gauge how important these ideas are and helps us determine our development direction.

http://protools.ideascale.com/

[guitrman]

I've really been enjoying this review, and all the great comments on how to get more out of the 11r.

I've had mine for about 3 months. To start with, it was a little overwhelming. I'd never had experience with a rack, pro tools or midi products. More then a little different then a tube amp and a few pedals.

I've enjoyed the sounds with the 11r. Most of my playing has been in a fairly large church, with varied jazz, light rock and blues tones. I've had fun playing through a Phil Jones bass amp, which is solid state, very clean and allows the 11r tones to shine through. If there has been a challenge playing live, it has been getting the volumes in line. Playing in the big room has been completely different then in my practice rooms and I've had to tweak the 11r to set the right levels. As others have said, it is a great interface and easy to do.

I bought a Behringer FCB1010 foot controller, and haven't been able to configure it properly with the 11r. I'm new to this end of it, and although reading each of the manuals, still haven't been able to get it. Does anyone know of any other resources out there how to work with midi making these two work together seamlessly.

Thanks again

Ashley

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

I'm pleased to say that we do have a Twin in there! I love combining it with the 4x12 Greenbacks.

The C1 Chorus functions in stereo just like the original Boss CE-1 we based it on. However, you have to apply it after the amp & cab to take advantage of the stereo function. All processing upstream of the amp is mono.

The product was designed to be upgradable so firmware updates are something we are definitely considering. I'm unfortunately not in a position to disclose timing or pricing information.

Limiting the control window/editor to Pro Tools was more of a matter of what we could accomplish in the time we had making the product. I think the standalone app idea is great and we're giving it a lot of thought.

We're looking into the stereo delay as well. There was a deliberate emphasis on 'vintage' amps and effects for the original release.

BTW: For you guys that have feature requests or ideas on how we could make the product better, I just set up an Eleven Rack category on our Pro Tools IdeaScale website. Here you can submit your requests and vote/comment on others. It's a great means for me to gauge how important these ideas are and helps us determine our development direction.

http://protools.ideascale.com/

 

Hi Hiro,

Thanks again for a clear answer.

I wonder how the heck I could have missed the Twin. I simply must revisit.

I was aware of the CE-1 chorus emulation being sort of stereo if you put it post amp. The thing I meant is that, like the original, it has the dry signal in one channel and the chorus effect in the other. The tc 1210 I referred to has chorus in both channels and to my ears it feels more lush and a lot wider.

I do understand what you are saying about focusing on vintage amps and fx and realize that you have to make priorities.

Great news that you are considering a stand-alone editor. I'm thinking I could use an iPad as a remote screen to control the editor. Extremely cool setup in my mind. Even cooler would be an editor app for the iPad and iPhone. I realize that may be difficult regarding fining the proper physical interface.

When rereading my post I realized I might have come across as impolite and even hostile. If that was so, please accept my apologies. I'm very happy that I get this opportunity to interact directly with you.

I will eagerly follow this thread and look forward to your first FW update.

Cheers,

Mats N

[Lee Fox]

One of the things that has caused me to take notice of the Eleven Rack has been the claim that the device models the compression, distortion, and ghost notes of speakers.

I have not heard any demos of this feature yet and I'm curious how they are modeling it.

Anybody know where to find audio examples and some background on the technology?

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Fox

One of the things that has caused me to take notice of the Eleven Rack has been the claim that the device models the compression, distortion, and ghost notes of speakers.

I have not heard any demos of this feature yet and I'm curious how they are modeling it.

Anybody know where to find audio examples and some background on the technology?

 

Wow, Lee, great timing. Chris Townsend, the chief DSP engineer and technology architect for Eleven Rack, just happens to be working on this and will post some info as a blog entry on Avid's forums. Craig referred to the blog in regards our True-Z technology and hopefully Chris will be able to post a similar article about ghost notes soon.

http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid...k/default.aspx

[avidgtrpm]

Hi Craig/All -

I just want to give you a heads up that I'm going to have to disengage for a while from this review. I'm on holiday for a couple weeks and my wife & kids are going to abandon me if I'm on the laptop the whole time. I might get a chance to chime in sometime early next week but I promise to jump back into the thick of it when I return.

cheers,

Hiro

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

Hi Craig/All -

I just want to give you a heads up that I'm going to have to disengage for a while from this review. I'm on holiday for a couple weeks and my wife & kids are going to abandon me if I'm on the laptop the whole time. I might get a chance to chime in sometime early next week but I promise to jump back into the thick of it when I return.

cheers,

Hiro

 

Hey, not a problem, you're entitled to have a life Besides, the Pro Tools aspect seems pretty straightforward. If you'd like someone else from Avid to monitor the thread for any urgent questions, that's fine too.

Meanwhile, I'll make you a trade: You have a great time on your vacation, and I'll have a great time playing through Eleven Rack so I can do some more audio examples

[Lee Fox]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

Wow, Lee, great timing. Chris Townsend, the chief DSP engineer and technology architect for Eleven Rack, just happens to be working on this and will post some info as a blog entry on Avid's forums. Craig referred to the blog in regards our True-Z technology and hopefully Chris will be able to post a similar article about ghost notes soon.

http://community.avid.com/blogs/avid...k/default.aspx

 

Cool, thanks!

I look forward to it.

[AvidGtrDev]

I'm the Guitar Products Architect at Avid, and I figured I should pop in and say hi. Also, I wanted to comment on one Craig's recent twitter posts, where he said, "Eleven Rack amps sound better than the plug-in - apparently improved cab emulation mojo in the hardware unit."

This question came up a number of time on the Avid User Conference, and here's what I had to say:

I think the difference you hear between the Eleven plug-in and Eleven Rack comes down to 3 primary factors. In terms of DSP the Eleven plug-in algorithm is identical to 11R (except 11R does not have speaker breakup). Actually, we made sure of it by doing cancellation tests between the plug-in and the Rack.

With a plug-in there is no easy way to exactly calibrate the incoming analog level. But with 11R the guitar level is pre-calibrated so the amp model is driven just as hard as plugging into the real amp. One other thing cool about 11R is that it's calibrated to the same level as what the plug-in expects, so you can record a direct guitar track with 11R and then send that track to the plug-in without needing to do any level calibration.

As you've theorized True-Z is also a big factor. The True-Z impedance modeling adds capacitance on the guitar input (when the first algorithm in the signal chain is the amp), which is essentially the same as what an actual tube guitar amp does. This capacitance actually changes the response of the pickups. The resonant peak of the pickup is lowered and the high end is rolled off somewhat, which removes some of the "brittleness" you might otherwise get with a generic DI. Because the response of the pickup is changed in a way that's dependent on the pickup you're using (due to it's particular inductance, capacitance, and resistance) it's not something you could "fix" with EQ before the amp.

Lastly I think having FX, such as reverb, can help make the sound more "polished". It sounded like a number you really liked the Twin example, and I suspect our new Spring Reverb algorithm is part of the reason for that. Additionally the Stereo Reverb is the same algorithm as Reverb One but with a greatly simplified control set, and in my opinion Reverb One really is an excellent verb, especially on guitars.

There's one other reason that I think might be a factor for some users, which is that Eleven Rack is totally plug and play. No time needs to be spent calibrating levels, futzing with different DI boxes and adding other FX, such as reverb. With this sort of instant gratification you can just focus on playing.

I hope that helps.

[Anderton]

Thanks for the clarification, Chris, and also for posting the details on True-Z on the Avid site - saved me a lot of work

I get how True-Z could make the difference I and others hear, but are you sure there isn't something in the cab that's a little different? Someone associated with Avid said that there was some sort of difference...don't remember the details, could it be that 11Ris running at a higher internal sample rate or something?

Then again it could just be that I misunderstood what was told me about the cab thing. In any event...it sounds really good, so I don't care how you got there!

[ContraStudio]

Man all this talk is making my mouth water bad.... I just drove down to

San Antonio for a family trip and hit up Austin for it's BBQ crazy stores and just pick up my ELEVEN RACK! So pumped to take it home and start playing, and since Hurricane Alex missed my trip up for camping out in

Corpuse Christi so guess we are leaving early, bummer.

[AvidGtrDev]

Hi Craig,

Well, we did add a way to disable "cab resonance" in the user options. Maybe that's what you're thinking of??? Cab resonance occurs because of the interaction of the impedance of the speaker with the amp. But since a tube power amp has it's own cab resonance, running Eleven Rack into a guitar amp can get you double the cab resonance. But it depends greatly on the particular gear and user preference.

Regardless, I'm glad to hear you like. You're right that in the end that's all that matters.

[Lee Fox]

 

Originally Posted by AvidGtrDev

In terms of DSP the Eleven plug-in algorithm is identical to 11R (except 11R does not have speaker breakup).

 

Is that accurate info?

The rack version does Not emulate speaker breakup/ghost notes/etc.?

[AvidGtrDev]

Hi Lee,

Eleven Rack definitely does model ghost notes, but not speaker breakup as previously mentioned.

[Lee Fox]

How do you 'model' ghost notes without incorporating speaker breakup?

[Anderton]

All right, let's plug this sucker into USB, boot up Pro Tools, and see what happens. I'm not going to look at the manual just to see whether the process of getting this to work is easy or difficult. I just love the real-time nature of Pro Reviews

Windows does the usual "Found New Hardware" thing...check.

Pro Tools loading...good, it sees Eleven...check.

Project opens and -- tra la! Check out the first attached image. There's the Eleven Rack interface, and I didn't even have to open it or anything. That was easy.

Eleven Rack shows up as the current engine...check. I think I'll try 256 samples for the buffer and see what happens.

Check out the I/O...click on default...all seems in order.

Create a track...check. Play...hmm, no processed guitar sound. Check the input: Well, there you have it; it defaults to the straight guitar or mic in sound. Once you set it to Eleven Rig L/R, there's the rack sound in all its modeled glory (see the second attached image.

Flushed with success, I figure I'll be clever and create a second track that's set to record the dry signal in case I want to re-amp it later - you can also see this in the second attached image.

Yes, it records! Cool beans. I now have Eleven Rack working with Pro Tools LE. I can see my MBox 2 already starting to feel pangs of rejection, poor thing.

Oh, and as an aside...I really think Pro Tools 8 is a big improvement over previous versions. If you're a Pro Tools user and haven't upgraded, I think it's the biggest step forward since they added elastic audio.

[Anderton]

First things first: As expected, the Eleven Rack and on-screen editor are bi-directional. Make an edit on-screen, and it shows up in the rack; make an edit on the rack, and it shows up on-screen. But not necessarily as expected, the process is instantaneous. You don't need to re-load or refresh anything. I like this!

Individual effects slots have drop-down menus where you can see which effects are available - see the first attached image. In addition to being able to move the controls on-screen, there are also other options, like a drop-down menu for sync to tempo (second attached image).

Anything you can do on the rack, you can do on-screen - move effects, choose effects, etc. Note, however, that the amp/cab section doesn't have a drop-down menu. Instead, you just click on the amp/cab slot, and a graphic of the amp and cab appears. You choose the amp type and cabinet within this graphic (third attached image).

The one disappointment is that you can't put a parametric in the rack chain itself; I find putting one at the output to be essential for getting certain types of sounds, and perhaps more critically, getting rid of peaks in piezo pickups that you simply cannot control with a graphic EQ. Of course when using Eleven Rack with Pro Tools this isn't an issue, as you can always just insert a parametric. But as the Eleven Rack can be updated, and they probably have some DSP cycles left...if anyone else would like to see this, please chime in as it's pretty obvious Avid is paying close attention to this thread.

Now I think I'll go create a rhythm track to play against. See ya later!

[AvidGtrDev]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Fox

How do you 'model' ghost notes without incorporating speaker breakup?

 

Hi Lee,

I think we might be using different definitions of "ghost notes". By my definition, ghost notes occur when the 60/50 cycle power supply hum modulates the plate voltage of the power tubes, causing sort of a slight ring modulation type sound when the power amp is heavily overdriven. This happens to a much greater degree in vintage amps, which tend to have power supply capacitors that are on the small side, and therefore don't filter out all of the 60 cycle hum.

Initially, I wondered why anyone would want this effect, but I've grown to really appreciate the extra bit of "grunginess" it adds. Most people would find it very objectionable in high doses. If that occurred in an actual tube amp, you'd know it was time to replace the power supply caps. But when the level of the effect is balanced just right, I think it's pretty cool.

Hmm, I guess I now practically have my blog on ghost notes written.

[Lee Fox]

Yes, a very different definition.

You can hear ghost notes when you push a speaker really hard and it generates additional tones related to the frequencies it's getting hit with.

Some folks also call it "Cone Cry".

The last thing I want in my amps, whether I build them myself, or from a commercial product, is that nasty, 60 cycle intrusion.

From WeberVst ...

" Cone Cry, Ghost Notes, Edge Yowl

Context: I replaced that speaker because it had too much cone cry.

Description: As the speaker cone is vibrated by the voice coil, it can generate frequencies of its own that may be strong enough to be audible along with the intended note or signal from the musical instrument.

These notes or tones may or may not be harmonically related to the intended note, and in some cases may be either higher or lower in frequency than the intended note.

This usually means that the voice coil is driving the cone so hard that it is overcoming any damping and is essentially out of control.

Sometimes manufacturers use huge magnets and loose spiders so they can win the 'sensitivity ratings' contest, but the result is a system that is difficult to control.

Edge yowl is the term used to describe sounds that occur when the surround resonates, imparts energy back into the cone, and generates tones and notes that may or may not be harmonically related to the intended note. "

[travisswan]

I've enjoyed reading this discussion. I've been using my Eleven Rack for a couple of months now, mostly for live performance at this point, but will totally use it for all my guitar tracks on my next album. I love handing the sound person an XLR and telling them to keep the EQ flat.

I waited for years for a rack mount unit I could use live that would compete with my old Digitech GSP2101, and this one totally delivers. The GSP2101 combined with a tube amp was always useful with its 12ax7 preamp distortion and ease of patch switching live via foot controller. (Though a lot of the time, I simply used a TS-808 tube screamer with my amp.) I'm one of those guys that loves tweaking endlessly, and the GSP2101 was VERY tweakable. I was just about to buy Line 6's PodX3 Live, but then played through the Eleven Rack and was totally sold. This thing has FEEL.

Anyway - I'm liking the interface, I love being able to drag and drop the modules in almost any order - even the effect loop, which is a fantastic feature. The TS-808 is spot on.

A few thoughts:

1. Why no parametric eq? EQ is such a tone shaper, and I'm finding the graphic eq rather limited. For recording, this isn't an issue, but it'd be nice to have a little more control for live situations, post amp/cabinet.

2. Parallel processing would be nice for nerds like me that like to fiddle. Imagine running parallel signals, throw distortion on one and flange/delay on another . . . then mix them back together via a 2->1 mixer and send them into the amp. I realize this is probably something that would require a completely new interface and is totally unrealistic to talk about, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

3. Two tap stereo delay would also be a good addition - I'm used to playing through a stereo tube amp and miking both cabs - two tap can REALLY pop solos into the stereo "arena" world. Any chance we might get something like this in the future?

4. I've experienced Protools 8.0.3 and the Eleven Rack disconnecting from each other on a semi-regular yet random basis. A MacBook reboot is the only thing that fixes it when it happens. Weird. But the rack is fantastic enough that I'm willing to overlook the inconvenience at this point. (I've been through Avid's help process with this one to no avail)

Anyway, here's how I've got it racked, complete with wireless for live playing, my Eric Johnson artist model Strat, and my old Digitech GSP2101 there simply as a quick solution for stage midi control via its foot controller. That's a BBE Sonic Maximizer I've got in the effects loop - I like adding it post-amp for certain sounds.

I've run my Martin DC-16 acoustic guitar through the rack - MAN it sounds nice with a tiny bit of the Ross compressor and a touch of Eleven Rack SR reverb. I highly recommend this for live playing with acoustic guitars, but watch your input volume - I noticed the higher input gain off the acoustic was distorting the compressor and had to turn down the output on my guitar preamp.

Last week I threw a dot-eight delay on the acoustic and locked in with my drummer's click track tempo via Protools and a MacBook - FUN. I simply use an A->B switch when I go back to electric guitar, and change programs via foot controller.

And . . . the other day I performed live with my mandolin run through the grey compressor with some reverb added:

Keep up the good work!

-Travis

[Anderton]

Thanks for joining in, Travis!

 

Originally Posted by travisswan

A few thoughts:

1. Why no parametric eq? EQ is such a tone shaper, and I'm finding the graphic eq rather limited. For recording, this isn't an issue, but it'd be nice to have a little more control for live situations, post amp/cabinet.

2. Parallel processing would be nice for nerds like me that like to fiddle. Imagine running parallel signals, throw distortion on one and flange/delay on another . . . then mix them back together via a 2->1 mixer and send them into the amp. I realize this is probably something that would require a completely new interface and is totally unrealistic to talk about, but thought I'd mention it anyway.

 

These are two things I've wanted as well. I'm sure the parametric is just a question of throwing some more code in there. It could be added to one of the FX slots.

As to the parallel interface thing, I've thought about this a bit as it's also a feature I'd like to see. Perhaps the easiest way to implement it would be to forego the NI Guitar Rig approach, where you can split anything anywhere, and instead do something more like Amplitube, where you have fixed signal processing options. AmpliTube does eight different series/parallel combinations, and while they won't let you do everything, they're definitely the most useful options most normal guitarists would use.

There are two other features I'd really like to see added. One is a pitch transposer effect for generating parallel (or even better, intelligent) harmonies. In particular, I'd like octave down - your basic octave divider sound.

The other feature is richer modulation options, specifically an envelope follower, step sequencer, and random waveform. In my ideal world, you'd right-click on a knob and see a list of modulation sources, at which point you could click on a source and enter modulation depth and range parameters. Of course one big envelope follower use is with filter, but it would be very cool to be able to alter other parameters based on your playing, like subtly tying chorus rate to dynamics.

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by travisswan

3. Two tap stereo delay would also be a good addition - I'm used to playing through a stereo tube amp and miking both cabs - two tap can REALLY pop solos into the stereo "arena" world. Any chance we might get something like this in the future?

-Travis

 

For me the omission of a stereo delay in a digital guitar oriented device is totally mind boggling in this day and age.

Cheers,

Mats N