Avid Eleven Rack Guitar Processor/Computer Interface - Now with Conclusions

[LesPaul88]

Craig, this is a fabulous review. Please get to the amp part soon!

[Cowboy Bob]

 

Originally Posted by LesPaul88

Craig, this is a fabulous review. Please get to the amp part soon!

 

Yup, couldn't agree more!

Still haven't pulled the trigger on buying the 11R yet, but I will in the coming months.

This is a great thread, and although I had pretty much decided to put aside the Black Box and PTMP for the 11R and PTLE, this thread is clinching it.

Thanks to all.

[avidgtrpm]

Hi folks, chiming in again after what may appear like a somewhat of a long absence. There've a been a few things afoot at Avid which have sucked up all my time but I just want you all to know that I'm still following the thread. Lots of good comments and valuable opinions that I do take into consideration for future product. I will continue checking this thread and answer questions as necessary.

Also, we did release new firmware that addresses a few things that have been bugging us, including improving the response of the tuner. You can get it here, just scroll to the bottom of the page:

http://bit.ly/ajyjb6

cheers,

Hiro

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

Lots of good comments and valuable opinions that I do take into consideration for future product.

 

Hi Hiro,

It's good that you read this posts with suggestions.

I do, however, think that some owners and some prospective owners of 11R would much rather hear you say (or see you write) that you are taking these ideas into consideration for upgrading the existing product.

Cheers,

Mats N

[Anderton]

Avid confirmed to me yesterday that additional (significant) updates are planned for the existing Eleven Rack, but did not commit to a date. I'm guessing relatively early next year.

[Lee Fox]

If they add the speaker distortion, etc., I'll be in the market for an 11R.

[Jon Chappell]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

 

Lots of good comments and valuable opinions that I do take into consideration for future product.

 

 

Originally Posted by Mats Nermark

Hi Hiro, It's good that you read this posts with suggestions. I do, however, think that some owners and some prospective owners of 11R would much rather hear you say (or see you write) that you are taking these ideas into consideration for upgrading the existing product. Cheers, Mats N

 

Maybe Hiro meant to say "future updates" (not "product"). Hiro?

[travisswan]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

Also, we did release new firmware that addresses a few things that have been bugging us, including improving the response of the tuner. You can get it here, just scroll to the bottom of the page:

http://bit.ly/ajyjb6

 

The new tuner response is great, by the way. I haven't used my Boss TU-2 since the firmware update.

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

Avid confirmed to me yesterday that additional (significant) updates are planned for the existing Eleven Rack, but did not commit to a date. I'm guessing relatively early next year.

 

Hi Craig,

Good to hear. This is yet another reason to go to NAMM "relatively early next year".

Cheers,

Mats N

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by Jon Chappell

Maybe Hiro meant to say "future updates" (not "product"). Hiro?

 

Good point, John. In my world, "product" covers anything that we make for the customer including updates to existing product. I apologize for the management-speak.

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by Mats Nermark

Hi Hiro,

It's good that you read this posts with suggestions.

I do, however, think that some owners and some prospective owners of 11R would much rather hear you say (or see you write) that you are taking these ideas into consideration for upgrading the existing product.

Cheers,

Mats N

 

Thanks, Mats but you have to see it from my side as well. I will never announce forthcoming features, upgrades, products, etc. unless I can absolutely guarantee that they will be available. I know it leaves you guys wondering but I don't ever want to promise something but not deliver in the end. Even with that level of certainty, I may choose to not disclose what we're working on so we have some competitive advantage in the market.

I will try to keep you guys in the loop as best as I can but disclosing information based on assumptions or intentions can really hurt the business and more importantly, my relationship with you guys. I appreciate your patience and understanding.

[Anderton]

Understood, but I think we all know that updates are planned . The only questions are what, when, how much, etc., which of course you can't reveal for multiple reasons! But I do have it on good authority from my sources at Avid that the anti-gravity and atomic collider modules have been postponed indefinitely.

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

Thanks, Mats but you have to see it from my side as well. I will never announce forthcoming features, upgrades, products, etc. unless I can absolutely guarantee that they will be available. I know it leaves you guys wondering but I don't ever want to promise something but not deliver in the end. Even with that level of certainty, I may choose to not disclose what we're working on so we have some competitive advantage in the market.

I will try to keep you guys in the loop as best as I can but disclosing information based on assumptions or intentions can really hurt the business and more importantly, my relationship with you guys. I appreciate your patience and understanding.

 

Hi Hiro,

I know exactly where you are coming from. I was in the MI Business myself for more than 10 years (in sales, distribution, marketing, product development and international business support) for some known companies.

I was just sort of pulling your leg in the post Jon Chapelle responded to as I suspected you were writing "managementese" in the post.

So go on with your job with future everything and don't waste any more time on language impaired Swedes trying to be witty.

If you took my post as an insult, I apologize.

Cheers,

Mats N

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by Mats Nermark

If you took my post as an insult, I apologize.

Cheers,

Mats N

 

I met Hiro last year, and he doesn't strike me as the kind of guy to get insulted easily. I bet if he saw your Hall E video or the Guitar Hall video from Frankfurt he'd laugh his head off.

In fact now that I think about it...the people I met who were involved with creating Eleven Rack are all certifiable maniacs. Could be one reason why it turned out as well as it did

[Anderton]

I think we can dispense with this one pretty quickly, as I'm pretty sure most of you know what reverb sounds like.

There are two reverbs, Spring Reverb (first attached image) and Stereo Reverb (second attached image), which is more of a studio-type reverb.

The Spring Reverb does exactly what you'd expect it to do. The Mix, Decay, and Tone controls are pretty self-explanatory, and the model is spot on. It's simple, but effective - like a spring reverb.

The Stereo Reverb is far more sophisticated. First off, it has a wide choice of algorithms, which you can see in the third attached image. Within those algorithms, the Decay, Pre-Delay (which offers an unusually long 199ms maximum delay), Tone, and Mix controls are quite effective - you can get a wide range of reverb sounds. The tails are smooth, with minimal (pretty much non-existent) periodicity, except for the Canyon setting, which has noticeable periodicity. The reverb also manages to avoid a metallic sound, and the two Early Reflections settings are great for adding ambience and width to a mono guitar part.

As with most reverbs, the one thing you don't want to do is vary a time-based parameter in real time. Changing the algorithm or Pre-Delay in real-time results in noticeable glitching...kids, don't try this on stage.

Overall, I'd have to say the Stereo Reverb was a surprise. After all the emphasis on vintageness, I suspected the Spring Reverb would do what it does. But the Stereo Reverb has a very pleasing sound that belies its digital origins. I like it a lot.

I think I'll forego the audio examples on this one, unless you want to hear some, in which case I'd be glad to oblige. But, I'd like to move on to the wahs so we can button up the effects, and get to the amps.

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

I like it a lot.

 

I do too. In fact, it's probably my favourite reverb for guitar that I've tried so far. To it manages to integrate itself with the original signal in a way that makes it sound like the guitar is "there" rather than (as is so often the case) a signal with an added reverb.

Cheers,

Mats N

[Mats Nermark]

Hi,

Another thing that I think is noteworthy about the 11R compressor is that I find it equally good with humbuckers as with single coils. On my analog pedalboard I have three compressors of which one is solely for humbuckers. I haven't yet found an analog or digital pedal that (to my ears) works for both. I was very surprised and also very pleased that the 11R comp worked for both.

Cheers,

Mats N

[AvidGtrDev]

The Eleven Rack Stereo Reverb is actually the Reverb One TDM plug-in algorithm under the hood, but with a simplified control set. That plug-in alone retails for a $1000, so clearly Even Rack is one heck of a bargain.

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by AvidGtrDev

The Eleven Rack Stereo Reverb is actually the Reverb One TDM plug-in algorithm under the hood, but with a simplified control set. That plug-in alone retails for a $1000, so clearly Even Rack is one heck of a bargain.

 

I've been in some studios using the Reverb One and FWIW I actually think the 11R Stereo Reverb sounds better. Maybe the engineers didn't know how to work Reverb One.

Cheers,

Mats N

[AvidGtrDev]

 

Originally Posted by Mats Nermark

I've been in some studios using the Reverb One and FWIW I actually think the 11R Stereo Reverb sounds better. Maybe the engineers didn't know how to work Reverb One.

 

Well, Reverb One has about 30 controls, so it's quite a bit more complicated to dial in properly. Generally I love to tweak FX, but I find with the the 11R Stereo Reverb, it's just so easy to get the sound I want there's no need.

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by AvidGtrDev

Well, Reverb One has about 30 controls, so it's quite a bit more complicated to dial in properly. Generally I love to tweak FX, but I find with the the 11R Stereo Reverb, it's just so easy to get the sound I want there's no need.

 

Goes to prove that "less is sometimes more".

Cheers,

Mats N

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by Mats Nermark

Goes to prove that "less is sometimes more".

Cheers,

Mats N

 

And in that spirit, I really encourage users to take advantage of the early reflection settings with the Reverb. Just a little bit of reflection goes a long way in making a totally dry guitar tone sound big and more importantly, real.

Totally dry guitar kind of weirds me out. When I listen to amps, I'm not inclined to position my ear an inch away from the cone so I'm always expecting to hear some character of the room the amp is in. Without it, the tone feels a little unnatural to me. Kind of like stepping into an anechoic chamber. Just an opinion.

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

And in that spirit, I really encourage users to take advantage of the early reflection settings with the Reverb. Just a little bit of reflection goes a long way in making a totally dry guitar tone sound big and more importantly, real.

Totally dry guitar kind of weirds me out. When I listen to amps, I'm not inclined to position my ear an inch away from the cone so I'm always expecting to hear some character of the room the amp is in. Without it, the tone feels a little unnatural to me. Kind of like stepping into an anechoic chamber. Just an opinion.

 

Mine too. As I said, "The two Early Reflections settings are great for adding ambience and width to a mono guitar part."

[Anderton]

And of course, what good is anything for guitar players if it doesn't have a good wah? Whether you're in a cover band doing "White Room" or doing session work for a porno movie, gotta have wa.

Eleven Rack offers two wahs, Black Wah and Shine Wah (the first attached image shows the Shine wah). Shine is brighter, while Black tends to shift more toward the bass. The first audio example is the Black sound, while the second audio example is the Shine wah.

However, I also thought it might be instructive if you could see, as well as hear, the difference in the spectra. So, I popped both files into Wavelab, and used the 3D analysis option to show the spectral frequency distribution (see the second attached image). Aside from looking way cool, you'll see that the Black Wah on the left definitely has a more prounounced low end, while the Shine Way on the right hits the highs harder.

And unless I've missed something, that wraps up the effects - which means it's time for the amps. You won't want to miss this, because regardless of what amp sim you use, I'm going to reveal the secret for getting a rounder, smoother, more wonderful amp tone out of digitally-modeled amps.

Stay tuned!

[Anderton]

As I pondered doing the amp examples, I figured it would make the most sense to use the same guitar riff so different nuances in the playing didn't affect the sound, and we'd have a "level playing field." So it seemed like this would be the perfect time to discuss re-amping with Eleven Rack, particularly because Avid has gone out of their way to make the process fairly painless.

(Note that we'll be talking about virtual re-amping in the context of using Eleven Rack with Pro Tools LE. However, it’s also possible to do physical re-amping - like taking a dry guitar track, and running it through Eleven Rack to a physical cabinet or speaker.)

The main concept behihnd re-amping is that you record a guitar track dry, then send the output to Eleven Rack for processing, which then gets recorded into a different track. It's worth pointing out that all virtual amp plug-ins are essentially re-amping - if you play through something like Guitar Rig, AmpliTube, POD Farm, ReValver, etc., you're not recording a processed guitar sound, but a dry one. This is why you can change the amp sound at any time.

When I first tried re-amping with Eleven Rack, it didn’t work at all - Eleven Rack didn't show up as a potential input to which you could assign a track output. Eventually I figured out why: I hadn’t selected “Eleven Rack” for I/O Settings when starting a new project (see the first attached image). Only by doing this are all I/O elements of Eleven Rack exposed.

The only other crucial setup parameter is to set the Eleven Rig Input option to “Re-Amp,” as shown in the second attached image. From there on, it’s smooth sailing. The basic flow works like this: You record you guitar into a track in Pro Tools. If you want, you can record into two tracks – one drywhich you’ll use later for re-amping, and one through effects so you have the right “feel” as you play.

You then assign the dry track out to Eleven’s Re-Amp input (you could just as easily insert a send and route that to the Re-Amp input instead). This sends the dry track to Eleven, where you can then choose the new amp or effect sound. Finally, you need to create a new stereo track so you have a destination for the re-amped track. You set its input to Eleven Rig L/R (Stereo), and that way, it picks up the sound that’s processed through Eleven. Monitor the stereo track as you tweak Eleven (remember to select Track > Input Only Monitoring for this track, so you can hear the results of your tweaking), and when you’re ready, record into the second track.

The only real limitation is that the track to be re-amped must be mono, not stereo (although the track receiving the re-amped signal should be stereo, so it can pick up the Eleven Rig L/R output).

One other aspect of re-amping is that it simplifies doing real-time parameter changes if you don't want to use automation. Go into record, change your virtual wah-wah position or drive amount or whatever, and the results will be recorded into the re-amped track. In fact, this is what I did for the wah examples as I didn't want to have to work the pedal and play at the same time.