Avid Eleven Rack Guitar Processor/Computer Interface - Now with Conclusions

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by Mats Nermark

For me the omission of a stereo delay in a digital guitar oriented device is totally mind boggling in this day and age.

Cheers,

Mats N

 

Hi Mats! We missed you at Summer NAMM.

As to the delay issue, while I don't speak for Digidesign, I assume their reasoning went something like this.

The units they modeled were mono delays (and I do feel the models are quite realistic). When using Eleven Rack as a Pro Tools interface, you have access to "modern" stereo delays as plug-ins. When used as a live device, I question how many guitarists use stereo delays - I pretty much keep things in mono for live performance, as I find few venues are set up where everyone in the audience can get good stereo imaging.

To me, this is a different situation from a parametric EQ. Although it's easy to add a parametric EQ in Pro Tools, for live use a parametric EQ can be indispensable in dealing with peaks/dips in the guitar or acoustic environment.

So if anyone at Avid is arguing about whether to add stereo EQ or a parametric EQ, I'd vote for the parametric

[travisswan]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

When used as a live device, I question how many guitarists use stereo delays - I pretty much keep things in mono for live performance, as I find few venues are set up where everyone in the audience can get good stereo imaging.

To me, this is a different situation from a parametric EQ. Although it's easy to add a parametric EQ in Pro Tools, for live use a parametric EQ can be indispensable in dealing with peaks/dips in the guitar or acoustic environment.

So if anyone at Avid is arguing about whether to add stereo EQ or a parametric EQ, I'd vote for the parametric

 

I do concur on this issue on the stereo level. . . most venues aren't really set up for good stereo imaging. I've had a few that really were, and took advantage of it in the moment, but I typically run mono, especially if I've got another guitar player with me.

I'd settle for a nice three band parametric EQ with a high and low shelf option. Seems like it wouldn't be too difficult an addition to the rack.

Speaking of EQ, the option of putting EQ after the amp/cabinet combo is awesome. No more miking a cab and living at the mercy of the soundperson's EQ whims . . .

-Travis

__________________

http://www.theunlikelies.com/

[Mats Nermark]

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

Hi Mats! We missed you at Summer NAMM.

 

Thanks, Craig! I've never been to Nashville so that was an even bigger incentive to go but as life (and surgery) would have it it may be next year. WInter NAMM first though.

 

Originally Posted by Anderton

The units they modeled were mono delays (and I do feel the models are quite realistic). When using Eleven Rack as a Pro Tools interface, you have access to "modern" stereo delays as plug-ins. When used as a live device, I question how many guitarists use stereo delays - I pretty much keep things in mono for live performance, as I find few venues are set up where everyone in the audience can get good stereo imaging.

To me, this is a different situation from a parametric EQ. Although it's easy to add a parametric EQ in Pro Tools, for live use a parametric EQ can be indispensable in dealing with peaks/dips in the guitar or acoustic environment.

So if anyone at Avid is arguing about whether to add stereo EQ or a parametric EQ, I'd vote for the parametric

 

While I agree with this to some extent many players I lnow here in Europe use stereo on stage even if they don't mike it for the audience. It's a player satisfaction thing. My hope is that Digi/Avid doesn't have to choose.

Cheers,

Mats N

[Cowboy Bob]

Thanks Craig and everyone else for all of the info thus far. I've been looking at the 11R for quite a while and vacillating whether to pull the trigger on one or not.

I have what I had considered a pretty good interface/performance unit in the Black Box Reloaded, and of course use it with my ProTools M-powered.

I like what I see with embedding the your presets right into the tracks, very handy.

Well, time to sell something I reckon and take the plunge to 11R. Anyone wanna buy a nice well broke paint horse?

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by Lee Fox

The last thing I want in my amps, whether I build them myself, or from a commercial product, is that nasty, 60 cycle intrusion."

 

Our decision to include this sonic artifact reflects our philosophy at the time we were developing the vintage amp emulations. We took a measured a "warts and all" approach because without some of these characteristics, we felt that the authenticity was compromised. Feedback from beta testers would describe how "something was missing" from the experience and when we would incorporate these artifacts, the response became "that's the sound!"

Not all the amps in Eleven Rack behave this way and we were aware that it's not everyone's bag. So again, we took a measured approach and put just enough of it in to give the amp that vintage character but far from making it sound like the amp was busted.

That being said, I can recall few positive experiences playing through tube amps that were in dire need of servicing. Of course, I was completely oblivious to what was going on at the time but sometimes a little mayhem with your gear is just what the moment needs...

Hiro

[steve350]

I know that the Eleven Rack comes with the full version of Pro Tools LE software. I use the Presonus Firebox as my audio interface. Can I run Pro Tools LE with this Firebox?

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by steve350

Can I run Pro Tools LE with this Firebox?

 

No. Pro Tools LE requires Avid hardware to run. However, you can use Avid hardware with non-Avid programs.

[Anderton]

Let's look into the various effects in more detail - we'll start with the distortions.

The three attached images show the options: Black Op Distortion, Green JRC Overdrive, and Tri-Knob fuzz. My original plan was to record an audio example for each one, but each distortion is capable of a wide range of sounds - to record examples of all the options would take a lot of time. In particular, the tone controls (called Cut in the Black Op distortion) have a huge effect on the sound, and that effect varies depending on the amount of overdrive (the level controls are just that - level).

So, in this post I'll give a subjective description of the three distortion units. The next post will have an audio example for each one that I feel is at least representative, but again, let me emphasize each one of these can get very different sounds.

Black Op Distortion With the Distortion control below 12 o'clock, it's possible to get crunchy, sparkling distortion tones that aren't too heavy on distortion. Past 12, though, the distortion gets really heavy and has a "solid state" type of sound. The Cut control takes away highs as you move it more clockwise; the effect is relatively understated, like a guitar's tone control as opposed to active EQ. Although you can get huge overloads by turning Distortion all the way up, this distortion seems designed to have the widest range of distortion sounds. I had no trouble coaxing some pretty sweet leads from it.

Green JRC Overdrive I consider this the smoothest/most tube-like of the three; it sounds very defined when paired with an amp/cab combination. The "Overdrive" name is spot on; it's warmer than a crunchy sound, and not as over-the-top as the two other units have the potential to be. It gives a good account of itself for rhythm guitar parts.

Tri-Knob Fuzz This is more about fun with shred. It goes into heavy distortion fairly early in the Sustain control's rotation, and only gets more intense from there. The Tone control has a unique kind of taper: The center position seems fairly neutral, while rotating counter-clockwise sounds like a high-pass filter that takes away some lows and accents the highs, while rotating clockwise takes away highs and pushes the lows. This is the distortion I'd use for metal/shred type effects,

[crazyForce]

 

Originally Posted by avidgtrpm

Feedback from beta testers would describe how "something was missing" from the experience and when we would incorporate these artifacts, the response became "that's the sound!"

Hiro

 

And IMO, you guys absolutely nailed it! I'm glad you guys managed to recreate these wonderful amps so well. To me, they sound like the originals that I have been fortunate to play or own, and that also means that they just sound great.

[travisswan]

The first attached sound is a patch I created yesterday to be general use distorted rhythm patch for live playing - recorded with my Gibson Les Paul (Burstbucker bridge pickup) into Protools 8.

I've also attached a screenshot of what I used on that particular patch, using Flange, Green JRC Overdrive, Treadplate amp, etc.

The second attached sound is my Martin DC-16 acoustic plugged straight into the C3 Lunar Steps patch - kept at factory settings except for the delay.

[ContraStudio]

So two issue I have since I got 11R,

This is the main issue, I'm not happy with the eq pedal. I think Avid should have put more time into this cause looking at their other eq they design they could have achieved it. For the past 34 hours I have been trying to dial in the tone of my 5150 but can't due to the mids being so limited. So would be great if Avid could come up with a tighter Eq.

Last issue is why doesn't 11R come with Eleven Le software? I have other recording rigs that would be nice to have it. I mean it's just about the same thing?

[Anderton]

 

Originally Posted by travisswan

The first attached sound is a patch I created yesterday to be general use distorted rhythm patch for live playing - recorded with my Gibson Les Paul (Burstbucker bridge pickup) into Protools 8.

I've also attached a screenshot of what I used on that particular patch, using Flange, Green JRC Overdrive, Treadplate amp, etc.

The second attached sound is my Martin DC-16 acoustic plugged straight into the C3 Lunar Steps patch - kept at factory settings except for the delay.

 

Nice work - and thanks for the participation.

If you'd care to share a patch, it is possible to attach ZIP files. I have one I've been working on that I'm going to attach.

Thanks again!

[peter henderson]

A request for Craig or anyone else to provide info on FOOT PEDALS

I asked my dealer if it was possible to get foot pedals that could work like the keys of the Axiom keyboard to trigger tracks to play in live performance from a pro tools file.

What I had in mind is getting the bass guitar sound from Transfuser to go up and down the scale (1-4-5 etc) while playing the Eleven rack voice.

He said any keyboard bass pedals would do the job (eg Roland) but they are $1000 plus

Does anyone know a cheap (one octave) pedal solution that would allow the player to call in Transfuse sequences and pre sets while playing guitar live?

[bmoncbus]

Glad I found this thread. I've been looking for both an amp sim and an audio interface (mainly for guitar, but also with a mic input for recording acoustic guitar and vocals) and this would seem like an all-in-one solution. However, I'm currently using, and quite accustomed to, an older version of Sonar in XP. I'm not up to date on all of the jargon used here about "M-powered" or "Pro Tools HD", but I want to use the Eleven Rack as an audio interface with Sonar. Is anyone here doing that?

Also, when used as an interface does the guitar input play through the headphones/speakers while the playback from your DAW is playing? For those using as an audio interface with the computer - how are you hooking up monitors to it. Looking at the back of the unit it isn't apparent to me which outputs I'd use.

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by ContraStudio

Last issue is why doesn't 11R come with Eleven Le software? I have other recording rigs that would be nice to have it. I mean it's just about the same thing?

 

The amplifier graphics and DSP algorithms and are the same (minus speaker cone breakup) and the amp settings are compatible with Eleven Rack but that's where the sameness ends. Even with the similarities, it's going to be tricky for me to convince my colleagues at Avid to give it away. The Eleven plug-in is still a product we sell and customers are buying it despite the existence of Eleven Rack.

Despite the business implications, there are some interesting potential recording workflows when you combine the functions of the plug-in with Eleven Rack hardware that has built-in DSP. I definitely see a benefit in the re-amping scenario but it all depends on how much tracking one does with effects.

Ahhh, good to be back from vacation talking gear again...

[avidgtrpm]

 

Originally Posted by bmoncbus

Glad I found this thread. I've been looking for both an amp sim and an audio interface (mainly for guitar, but also with a mic input for recording acoustic guitar and vocals) and this would seem like an all-in-one solution. However, I'm currently using, and quite accustomed to, an older version of Sonar in XP. I'm not up to date on all of the jargon used here about "M-powered" or "Pro Tools HD", but I want to use the Eleven Rack as an audio interface with Sonar. Is anyone here doing that?

Also, when used as an interface does the guitar input play through the headphones/speakers while the playback from your DAW is playing? For those using as an audio interface with the computer - how are you hooking up monitors to it. Looking at the back of the unit it isn't apparent to me which outputs I'd use.

 

Eleven Rack does come with Core Audio and ASIO drivers which will allow you to use Eleven Rack as your audio interface with other DAWs like Sonar. It's not going to be as 'advantaged' as when you use Eleven Rack with Pro Tools LE but no different than using any other 3rd party interface. I don't know how old your versions of Sonar and Windows are so I can't guarantee everything will work.

Connect the Main Outputs (XLR) to your monitors or monitor mixer. You will be able to monitor you guitar playing through an Eleven Rig while the DAW plays back audio. When you record guitar you will probably want to mute the track that you are tracking to. This prevents hearing 2 streams of guitar audio slightly delayed from each other.

For playback or mixing, I would "mute" your Eleven Rig so you don't hear any extraneous noise coming from the guitar or Eleven Rig. There are a couple ways this can be done, none of which are entirely elegant. I've created a Rig that has the amp and all FX bypassed. In addition, the Volume Pedal is fully attenuating the signal and positioned at the end of the Rig's signal chain. When I need to mix or monitor playback only, I select this Rig to so I'm only hearing playback from the DAW. Again, not the snazziest of workarounds but it does the trick when I use Eleven Rack with other DAWs.

[Anderton]

Sorry for the delay (and welcome back, Hiro!), but after cutting some several examples and listening back to them, I felt they didn't really show much that was all that useful - you know what distortion sounds like, right? So, I thought I'd dig a little deeper.

One thing some amp sim fans don't seem to realize is that no law says you have to use an amp and cab together, and Eleven Rack makes it so you don't have to - you can mix and match different amps and cabs, but also, use one, the other, or both.

An obvious reason for doing this is if you want to use Eleven Rack as a "front end" for a physical cabinet; you can take the cab out of the circuit, and let the physical one provide that function. But the reverse - using only the cab, and not the amp - can be useful as well, particularly with distortion.

This attached audio example uses the Black Op Distortion. You'll first hear it by itself, with a light amount of distortion and the Cut control somewhat clockwise, both of which contribute to a more muted, chunky, rhythm guitar type sound. The first attached image shows the initial distortion settings.

The next section of the audio example plays the same Black Op sound through the 4 x 12 Green 25W cab (no amp). You can really hear how the cabinet shapes the distortion into a warmer sound with a more organic quality.

The third section reduces the amount of cut on the Black Op, which leads to a brighter sound. The fourth section is the same, but kicks up the distortion control somewhat to give a more intense sound that's also somewhat brighter; the second attached image shows the final distortion settings. As you can see, there’s not a lot of difference between the initial and ending settings, but the sonic difference is substantial.

Note throughout all this, the cab settings have remained unchanged - what you're hearing is solely the result of running the Black Op through the cab.

[Anderton]

Hiro pretty much nailed it, there's no problem using Eleven Rack with other ASIO applications on Windows (and presumably,with AU on Mac although I didn't test it).

As you mentioned Sonar, I figured I'd try the two. Interestingly, with Eleven Rack connected, it "took over" from other connected interfaces so it became the default audio device. I'm not sure if there's some kind of code mojo that makes this happen, it was just by chance, or whether Sonar has artificial intelligence and by seeing a file called "Eleven Rack," hooked up the Eleven Rack...

Anyway, the first attached image shows how the drivers show up in the audio tab. All the Eleven I/O that's available to Pro Tools is available to Sonar, but of course, there are no software "hooks" that allow for on-screen editing - it's front panel only.

The second attached image shows the amount of latency...5.8ms, or 256ms. I could probably push it a little further, but I didn't want to get too deep into the using-with-other-hosts thing - I mostly wanted to confirm what Hiro said.

[Anderton]

As mentioned previously, I feel this distortion has the warmest, most organic tone of the three options - but you can be the judge of that, so listen to the audio example.

The first attached image shows the settings for the first part of the example, while the sescond attached image shows the settings for the second part. Note that I also threw in a short single-note line at the end to give an idea of what this would sound like for solos.

As with the Black Op example, I'm running the Green JRC through a cabinet as I feel that more accurately represents the kind of sound you'd use. Of all the cabs, l liked the Black Duo the best - it seemed to complement the vintage sound.

Also as with the Black Op example, I used the virtual "Royer 121" mic. This is a great guitar amp mic in real life, and it seems to give a good account of itself in the virtual world, as well. I used it in the on-axis position as I feel this gives the most neutral sound for the distortion. We'll get into the miking aspects later when we start dissecting the cabinets.

[Anderton]

This is the over-the-top fuzz for over-the-top guitarists who would prefer to set their phasers on "crush" rather than "stun." It's really bass heavy, but mess with the Tone control, and it can generate some serious high-end fizz as well. You'll hear what I mean when you listen to the audio example.

Again, the first attached image shows the settings for the first part of the example, while the second attached image shows the settings for the second part. And also again, I threw in a short single-note line at the end to give an idea of what this would sound like for solos.

Choosing a cabinet for the Tri-Knob was more of a challenge, as most of them emphasized the bass that, at least to my ears, was already capable of shaking the floors. After trying all the cabs, I felt the Tweed Lux was the best match for the kind of sound I wanted to hear, and the virtual Royer 121 got the nod for the same reasons I used it with the other distortion examples.

To summarize, the three distortions have very different characteristics, and I have to give Avid props for covering the fuzz bases very credibly. For traditionalist guitarists, the Green JRC gives that comfortable, singing kind of distortion. On the other hand if you go onstage with tattoos and chain saws, and love the idea of scooped mids, run - don't walk - to the Tri-Tone.

The Black Op lies between these extremes, as it can have more "sparkle" than the Green JRC and also works really well for chunky, rhythm guitar type parts, with a sound that's less massive - but far more defined - than the Tri-Tone.

Class dismissed on the distortion aspects. Any questions?

[Anderton]

Having covered the distortion effects, let's look at the modulation effects:

* Chorus/vibrato

* Flanger

* Orange Phaser

* Roto Speaker

* Vibe Phaser

We'll start with the Chorus/Vibrato effect, shown in the first attached image. You can choose between the two with the chorus/vibrato "virtual footswitch." There's only one Chorus control, for speed (although you can sync to tempo instead); frankly, I find this one of the less successful processors in Eleven Rack.

Granted, some vintage choruses don't offer a lot of control - and I'm not a fan of those, either, because I like a little more fine-tuning possibilities. As far as I'm concerned, a chorus needs at least a depth as well as speed control, and better yet, an additional control for initial delay. In other words, whether the initial delay is a few milliseconds or 20 milliseconds, I want to be able to vary the width of the sweep - e.g., from 12-15ms, or 10-20ms, or whatever.

You'll hear what I mean if you listen to the first audio example. It starts off with the chorus at the slowest speed (I used a dropped D tuning for a big sound that lends itself to chorusing), and that works well for me. The second part turns the speed up to full, and it's too much for my taste; I want to pull back on the depth. Furthermore, that's the fastest it goes, and I wish the speed could go faster.

Actually, the speed can go faster if you sync to tempo; the final section of the audio example plays through a fast sync-to-tempo setting. But here, at least to my ears the Vibrato depth is excessive, to the point of rendering the chorus unuseable.

The Vibrato has a Depth control; for a future software rev, I'd suggest decoupling the Depth control from the vibrato, so it can affect Chorus depth when Chorus is selected, and Vibrato when Vibrato is selected.

Now, this isn't to say you can't get useful sounds out of the Chorus - you can, as the first part of the audio example illustrates. But, the inability to control depth limits its use in various musical contexts.

The Vibrato is a far more successful implementation. When I first turned it on, I thought someone had stuffed an old Magnatone amp into my computer. For this effect there is a Depth control, and the Speed covers a wider range. Check out the second audio example, and you'll hear why I like it - it's a liquid smooth vibrato that sounds very Magnatone. The first part of the example uses a faster vibrato speed, while the second part slows the rate down. And yes, I optimized the depth in each case

[FastRedPonyCar]

Jumping in here as a new 11r owner.

I tweaked around with the plexi sim, greenback cab and royer mic model and ended up with this

http://www.netmusicians.org/files/85...20Meltdown.mp3

download the preset here.

http://www.elevenrackpresets.com/Details/166.html

As far as my quibbles about the unit, most have been addressed.

I would also like a parametric EQ and why, if you're going to include a 5 band eq, not give them the same frequency values as the mesa mark amps? IMO this is absolutely CRITICAL to dial in a half way legit mark sound.

Having that and a parametric eq as options would be very nice.

lack of stereo delay/chorus was a bit of a buzz kill but not a deal breaker and lastly, a solo boost would have been a GREAT idea... just a simple decibel boost is all. I'm having to use a clean boost between the 11rack and the power amp to do this for the time being.

otherwise, awesome product. I also think that there should eventually be the choice to use the 11rack interface as a stand alone VST plugin. I don't use protools so this pretty much leaves me high and dry. I open protools just to manipulate the device patches more quickly but when it's time to record, I use other software.

[tech21man]

Hey fastred, nice seeing you here also. I remember reading somewhere that the mark model has the V curve built in but I cannot remember where it was or if it was about the plug in.

Still one walk through the axe-fx wiki and you will find out that the mesa mark series graphic eq does not exactly stays true to these certain frequencies. Some techs found out by the materials used that for example the 6,6 khz band is really much lower, 4 or 3,6 khz or something?

[FastRedPonyCar]

interesting.... I messed around with it more last night. I think it's technically the MK II model or supposedly based off that but I found that it has SOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO much more gain.

With the gain on the amp sim set to 2 out of 10 it's already into meltdown territory.

I've still got a lot of tweaking to do on it but right now, I like it set down a hair above 1 and then boosted with the tube screamer sim which also tightens up the really flabby low end. I couldn't dial that out without the tube screamer where as, with my old studio preamp I could. Also the treble knob doesn't function the same way as it does on a mark series amp. On the real deal, it will actually add a lot of gain but on the 11R it doesn't. The presence knob also does virtually nothing to the sound

[Anderton]

This is a very "vintagey" flanger - it reminds me of the old ADA flanger, but cleaner. Referring to the attached image, the controls are Pre-Delay (i.e., initial delay), Depth of the flanger effect, Rate (which can be tempo-synched, and Feedback. There's no wet/dry control, presumably because Avid knows that an equal blend of dry and processed sound gives the most dramatic flanging effect. However, I do like the ability to dial in lots of feedback but reduce the amount of wet signal in the overall mix to prevent the feedback from "taking over."

The Feedback control is interesting. At center, there's no feedback. Clockwise gives more positive feedback, while counterclockwise increases negative feedback. I prefer the positive feedback sound to the negative one, but I suspect that might be because the Flanger is emulating a specific flanger (maybe Hiro can fill us in on that), and not all flangers did the phase change right. For the right kind of negative flanging sound, you need to invert not just the feedback phase, but the phase where the summing occurs. Some flangers did this and some didn't, which is why negative feedback (and sometimes positive) varied so much from flanger to flanger.

This flanger does not do "through-zero" flanging like you used to get with tape, because with tape, sometimes the delay would actually get ahead of the signal (an advantage of non-real-time processing). The way to simulate that these days is by delaying the flanger's dry signal by a millisecond or so, or if that's not possible, placing a flanger (set for delayed sound only) in parallel with a delay set for a millisecond or two of delay. Avid might want to consider doing this in a future rev, although you also need to be able to defeat it in case someone doesn't like the idea of a delayed straight signal. However, you can come very close to through-zero flanging by setting Pre-Delay for a relatively short value, and increasing Depth.

The audio example shows the flanger in action. The first part has lots of positive feedback; you probably wouldn't use this much normally, but it's nice to know the option is there. The second part dials back the positive feedback to a value I'd consider suitable for most musical applications. The third and final section adds a fair amount of negative feedback.

Overall, this is an excellent flanger for that classic stomp box flanger sound, but doesn't do the tape flanging thing if that's what you want. In any event, it's a solid implementation.