Alternate picking vs. "Economy" Picking

[gibsgstd1999]

I have been playing the guitar for around 15 years, and as I was watching a Paul Gilbert instructional video clip on Google, something hit me...

...See, ever since I had aspirations of playing like my guitar heroes (YJM, EVH, Vai, Dimebag, etc), I would never truly alternate pick. I would, what I call "economy" pick, which would be sweeping the note to the next string.

 

For example

 

 

 

Str 5: ----------7--9--7--

Str 6: 5--7--8------------8--7--5

 

 

What I would normally do, is use a downstroke for both the eighth fret on string 6 and the seventh on the 5th string, so this technically would be like sweeping down to the next note, which seems to create less work to sound like I can play fast...

 

However, would I be better off playing the riff, entirely using alternate pickstrokes, even if it meant relearning how to play, in a way? I want to be able to play both accurately, and with speed, and being able to truly alternate pick every note is tough for me because I am not used to it. It is especially difficult alternate picking backwards, and playing with speed.

 

What is everyone's thoughts on this? Is alternate picking an absolute necessity, or does it depend on the situation. Am I delving too deep into this?

 

Thanks.

[RaVenCAD]

I've been playing since about 1988 and through natural progression, I ended up using econo picking. It just feels right to me, and it has a very fluid sound. I likes it.. 2 years ago, I went to a teacher, first one in well over 10 years. Well, he spent the first 20 minutes of my first 3 lessons pissing and moaning about my picking. He insisted I change my picking. So, the week of my 4th lesson, I called him up and explained that I wasn't going to change, and he needed to focus on the theory that I was paying him to teach me. We agreed, he'd ignore my picking, and that I'd work on alt picking because it has its own benefits. So, the 4th lesson rolled around, 5 minutes went by, then he started again. That was my last lesson with the guy.

 

Many people consider econo picking to be poor technique. I consider it to be perfectly acceptable.

 

Bottom line, play what you are comfy with. If you have to think about it, and make yourself do it, then it isn't a natural motion for you.

 

- an econo picker 4-life

[gennation]

Use what feels right. I use both depending on what I'm doing.

 

I have to say though, I PRACTICE alternate picking way more than economy picking. The economy sweep creeps in when it wants.

[gibsgstd1999]

Thanks for the answers. I guess it does depend on the situation, and that there is nothing really wrong with econo picking, but I just want to make sure that it is an ok choice if I really want to play as fast as my idols. Does Malmsteen use all alternate picking when is not doing sweep arpeggios? What about someone like Paul Gilbert? They both play extremely fast runs, and I just have a hunch that maybe alternate picking all the time would get me closer to playing at that speed, and with such accuracy.

 

More thoughts, anyone?

[Sarricola_Sauce]

Different strokes for different folks. I was trained by one of those neoclassical viking types who used to only teach sweeping. He never mentioned anything about true alternate picking to me. That ended up really screwing me over later on when I go into jazz. When you alternate, your swing improves immensly, if yer into that sorta thing. Then it just swing is just a matter of accenting yer upstrokes. I love watching shred players trying to play jazz with sweep picking, sounds like they're riding on a horse.

 

Bump bumBUMP bumBUMP bumBUMP

 

I've been trying the last few years to become as quick at real alternating as I was with sweeping. When I practice, I alternate, but when I play live or when improvising, I just let it flow. Most of it I try to alternate, but of with a lot of my licks I just need to sweep. When recording, its whatever technique gets it done fasted with the best results, and both are acceptable depending on the tune or style.

[Kinetic]

Vai alternate picks

 

Paul Gilbert is a very strict alternate picker.

 

Malmsteen ecomony picks.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by RaVenCAD Many people consider econo picking to be poor technique. I consider it to be perfectly acceptable.

 

Because they don't know any better.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by Sarricola_Sauce Different strokes for different folks. I was trained by one of those neoclassical viking types who used to only teach sweeping. He never mentioned anything about true alternate picking to me. That ended up really screwing me over later on when I go into jazz. When you alternate, your swing improves immensly, if yer into that sorta thing. Then it just swing is just a matter of accenting yer upstrokes. I love watching shred players trying to play jazz with sweep picking, sounds like they're riding on a horse. Bump bumBUMP bumBUMP bumBUMP I've been trying the last few years to become as quick at real alternating as I was with sweeping. When I practice, I alternate, but when I play live or when improvising, I just let it flow. Most of it I try to alternate, but of with a lot of my licks I just need to sweep. When recording, its whatever technique gets it done fasted with the best results, and both are acceptable depending on the tune or style.

 

I assume by sweep picking you actually mean economy picking?

 

What about 'swing', what definition are you using?

 

Also it seems that, despite your practice with alternate picking, your natural inclination is to revert to your previous picking style... maybe it's telling you something

[Yngtchie Blacksteen]

 

Originally posted by Kinetic Malmsteen ecomony picks.

He uses both, but alternate more than economy.

 

My view on the matter is that both are perfectly legitimate techniques, my advice would be to learn both. That will make it much easier for you to switch between whatever works best, instead of not really knowing what you're playing.

 

My experience is that alternate picking has that percussive sound, it sounds more rhythmically defined. Economy picking has a smoother sound, but to me it lacks the definition of alternate picking. I find it hard to accent certain notes when economy picking, but that may be just a matter of practice.

 

A good example of someone who uses economy picking as the main picking style is Frank Gambale. Watch his video Monster Licks & Speed Picking if you want to get into economy and sweep picking.

 

A good example of a strict alternate picker is Steve Morse, who even alternate picks arpeggios instead of sweeping them. Check out the song "Tumeni Notes" for an example of superb alternate picking. He also has a number of instructional videos that are well worth checking out, he explains things in an easy-to-understand manner, and the musical examples are always excellent.

[Sarricola_Sauce]

Originally posted by Kinetic I assume by sweep picking you actually mean economy picking? What about 'swing', what definition are you using? Also it seems that, despite your practice with alternate picking, your natural inclination is to revert to your previous picking style... maybe it's telling you something

 

Yer correct, i meant economy picking, i always though the two terms were sort of synonymous(sp?)

 

good swing is subjective, but a lot of players, often myself included, make it sound really fake. Its about accenting upstrokes, not dotting eigth notes. When u alternate, yer bebop scales alternate with chord tonesl.

 

Down- chord tone

Up- passing tone

 

Once u got it mastered the possibilities are endless. I revert to my old style when I play sweep arpeggios, or when my alternating skills can't yet handle a paticular run.

 

both are acceptable, and are better for different things, I want to master both and i havent gotten there yet.

[Kinetic]

 

Originally posted by Yngtchie Blacksteen He uses both, but alternate more than economy.

 

 

Having studied his technique from his videos I say otherwise. He's very clearly a user of circular picking which is an integral part of economy picking and not alternate picking. He only tightens his grip up when he goes very, very fast but that's a natural thing with economy picking. As an economy picker I'm used to seeing it and it abounds in Malmsteen's playing.

 

 

My experience is that alternate picking has that percussive sound, it sounds more rhythmically defined. Economy picking has a smoother sound, but to me it lacks the definition of alternate picking.

 

 

The whole sound thing is a fallacy as economy and alternate picking are identical for the vast majority of the time. Still if you'd like to post some clips to prove this I'll more than happily back down. It doesn't have to be you, just someone who's technique we can prove. The alternate picker will be easy, the economy picker not so (Don't use Frank Gambale....)

 

 

A good example of someone who uses economy picking as the main picking style is Frank Gambale. Watch his video Monster Licks & Speed Picking if you want to get into economy and sweep picking.

 

 

Gambale's a bad example, he's not a typical economy picker. He will try to adjust patterns to make them more 'sweepable'. He takes economy picking to a different level. Gambale straddles that the middle ground between economy picking and sweep picking.

 

 

 

Overall it seems to me like you're mixing up economy picking with sweep picking, they're not the same. Neither are alternate picking and economy picking independent techniques, there is an area of overlap. Just because someone does a run that uses multiples of notes on one string does not mean they're alternate picking.

[Kinetic]

 

Originally posted by Sarricola_Sauce Yer correct, i meant economy picking, i always though the two terms were sort of synonymous(sp?)

 

 

No, the techniques are different. Sweep picking is an extended version of 'raking' whereby you use one pickstroke to play one note on each string. If you go down you go down, if you go up you go up. You can play at silly speeds with this technique and it can end up sounding quite legato.

 

Economy picking OTOH means that you use the most economical picking pattern for whatever you're trying to do. An example would be the old 1 2 3 4/ D U D U chromatic exercise. If you go across all six strings there is no more economical way of picking that hence it's economy picking. If you start on the beat it's also alternate picking but it is not sweep picking.

 

 

good swing is subjective, but a lot of players, often myself included, make it sound really fake. Its about accenting upstrokes, not dotting eigth notes. When u alternate, yer bebop scales alternate with chord tonesl.

 

 

I meant the rhymic pattern. I assume you mean the typical defenition of swing where the second quaver in each beat is displaced?

[Sarricola_Sauce]

 

Originally posted by Kinetic I meant the rhymic pattern. I assume you mean the typical defenition of swing where the second quaver in each beat is displaced?

 

 

When you truely alternate every pickstroke it is much easier to build up momentum, resulting in a 'smoother' swing. When economy picking is applied, anytime you do two downstrokes in a row (or ups for that matter) you lose a bit of that momentum, and you have to overcompensate, as a result the swing sounds forced, hence the riding on the horse metaphor. Can you have a smooth swing while economy picking........of course, but it feels a lot better to me when I do it the right way. I transcribed lots of solos while I was still econo-picking everything, but now that I alternate them, I believe I sound more 'in the pocket' now.

[Li Shenron]

 

Originally posted by gibsgstd1999 Thanks for the answers. I guess it does depend on the situation, and that there is nothing really wrong with econo picking, but I just want to make sure that it is an ok choice if I really want to play as fast as my idols.

 

 

Yes it really does depend what's best. Certain phrases naturally call for the first and some for the second. Generally speaking, you could be able to play anything with either technique, but of course if you are good with both, you have a big advantage.

 

I think that for example when a certain phrase skips strings, the benefit of economy picking is reduced, because it really works best when the distance is minimal (adjacent strings).

 

There can actually be some special case when even the "wrong" direct picking (or whatever is it called), meaning picking all downwards, have some benefit.

 

If you are a fan of a certain guitarist and want to play a lot of his songs, you really should find out which picking style he uses, because naturally he would tend to play runs & solos which suit his style better!

 

I cannot tell much about specific guitarists however, because I don't really have a "model" I want to sound alike.

[gibsgstd1999]

 

Originally posted by Li Shenron If you are a fan of a certain guitarist and want to play a lot of his songs, you really should find out which picking style he uses, because naturally he would tend to play runs & solos which suit his style better! I cannot tell much about specific guitarists however, because I don't really have a "model" I want to sound alike.

 

 

Well, I don't exactly want to be a clone of these guitar players. I have already been playing so long, and doing my own thing, that I probably sound like more of a mix of my influences than anything. I just figured that finding out what the "diciplined" players do, might help me in the long run, y'know?

[Flametal]

I started out eonom picking but I now alternate pick. It just makes me keep and more accurate rythm and forces accuracy. However there are some runs where I feel I need to economy pick. My freind is the opposite way. Diffrent strokes for diffrent folks. The choice in technique is subcontiouse for me at this point.

[Moggo]

 

Originally posted by Sarricola_Sauce When you truely alternate every pickstroke it is much easier to build up momentum, resulting in a 'smoother' swing. When economy picking is applied, anytime you do two downstrokes in a row (or ups for that matter) you lose a bit of that momentum, and you have to overcompensate, as a result the swing sounds forced, hence the riding on the horse metaphor. Can you have a smooth swing while economy picking........of course, but it feels a lot better to me when I do it the right way. I transcribed lots of solos while I was still econo-picking everything, but now that I alternate them, I believe I sound more 'in the pocket' now.

 

 

See, now I eco-pick but I can exagerrate either direction of my picking in between strings and don't see it as a problem.

 

I think with economy picking people tend to see the problems they had with it as a problem with the technique as opposed to the implementation of the technique, which is quite different.

 

I'm no godly picker, but I'm quite sure you can accent anything you like with economy picking.

[Tesha]

I've been reading all your comments about what is good and less good in these two techniques but it seems only few people ever discuss the underlying problem: crossing strings.

Like all of us I had my share of this barrier and I took the time to really analize this and get to the root of it.

I'm sure all can agree to the fact that alternate picking would be the universal answer if string crossing wouldn't slow you down.

I developed a way to alternate pick with no problem and no slowdown crossing strings and wrote an article.

You might be interested to read what I came up with at http://www.hodosy-music.com .

 

Maybe this would assist a few guys and I would appreciate your feedback on this.

 

Jes

 

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by gibsgstd1999 However, would I be better off playing the riff, entirely using alternate pickstrokes, even if it meant relearning how to play, in a way? I want to be able to play both accurately, and with speed, and being able to truly alternate pick every note is tough for me because I am not used to it. It is especially difficult alternate picking backwards, and playing with speed. What is everyone's thoughts on this? Is alternate picking an absolute necessity, or does it depend on the situation. Am I delving too deep into this? Thanks.

 

 

I've been playing 12 years and thought i was an alternate picker until i recently found a guitar teacher who told me I am actually economy picking alot of my runs. At low and medium speed i definately strictly alternate pick, but it seemed when playing really fast i tend to switch to eco picking - it's not something i practiced, in fact just the opposite - it's just something that happens naturally when i play at speed... I guess some people find it natural to alt pick at speed, and some find it more natural to mix alt-picking and eco-picking. If it is working for you, why change it?

 

Bottom line is that both techniques facilitate fast and accurate playing.

[jazzbo]

Sweeping is kind of an effect that works with fast appegiated runs, like 16th notes... in this context it might tend to be sloppy, because you would rush the 7th fret A string note, playing it a little early, in order to capitalize on the downstroke from the E string

 

if you can do it and it doesn't sound sloppy then it's ok, but the advantage of alternate picking is that you don't have to ask yourself this kind of question, your hand just goes down-up-down-up automatically

[Knottyhed]

 

Originally posted by jazzbo Sweeping is kind of an effect that works with fast appegiated runs, like 16th notes... in this context it might tend to be sloppy, because you would rush the 7th fret A string note, playing it a little early, in order to capitalize on the downstroke from the E string if you can do it and it doesn't sound sloppy then it's ok, but the advantage of alternate picking is that you don't have to ask yourself this kind of question, your hand just goes down-up-down-up automatically

 

 

Matters more on slow runs, below a certain tempo i for one think sweep picking gets harder because of the timing issues. Does anybody actually use economy picking on slow runs though? I certainly don't because like you say alt picking takes less thought when i come to playing on the beat.

[timgibson]

Nothing wrong with economy picking, but it wouldn't hurt to be accomplished with both types.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by Knottyhed Matters more on slow runs, below a certain tempo i for one think sweep picking gets harder because of the timing issues.

 

That should tell you something about your sweep picking

 

Does anybody actually use economy picking on slow runs though? I certainly don't because like you say alt picking takes less thought when i come to playing on the beat.

 

 

Come on, we've been through this before. I can economy pick at any speed I want because I use it, it's second nature to me. Alternate picking seems awkard and cumbersome for precisely the same reason... I don't use it!

[Knottyhed]

Originally posted by Kinetic That should tell you something about your sweep picking

Yeh - i'm far from having complete mastery of sweep picking, it's a relatively new technique to me. I can do it slowly, but it feels almost unnatural; at medium and fast tempo it seems to flow more naturally. Perhaps that's just me?

 

Originally posted by Kinetic Come on, we've been through this before. I can economy pick at any speed I want because I use it, it's second nature to me. Alternate picking seems awkard and cumbersome for precisely the same reason... I don't use it!

 

Not with me I don't think? As I said before - whatever works. If it isn't broke don't fix it. For me a combination of the two seems to do the job.

 

 

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by Knottyhed Not with me I don't think? As I said before - whatever works. If it isn't broke don't fix it.

 

Yes with you, in the last alternate/economy picking thread