Alternate picking vs. "Economy" Picking

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat Sure we could tell, by watching and listening. I was just checking out the Guitar publication from England and they show Morse's Tumeni Notes. they interview him and analyze his technique. Anyhow, they come to the conclusion that alt. picking will give it that pop, and to econ it, will make it smoother sounding. It's good to use both and it helps give players their own style. It's just that alt. picking that is so damn hard!

 

 

Ahh... I see the problem. Economy picking is not sweep picking. All though the two may use consecutive picking directions the techniques are different, that and it's very difficult to economy pick more than one consecutive string without falling into sweep picking.

[buddastrat]

Don't get into semantics. Sweep picking is economically picking.
You know what I mean.

Whatever you want to call it, it can't sound like alt. picking. It's separate skills that a good guitarist should master.

I'm not talking about Al Dimeola's econ cross picking btw.

[krazy1912]

Can someone explain to me what economy picking is?

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat Don't get into semantics. Sweep picking is economically picking. You know what I mean. Whatever you want to call it, it can't sound like alt. picking. It's separate skills that a good guitarist should master. I'm not talking about Al Dimeola's econ cross picking btw.

 

 

Sweep picking is not economy picking, they are two different techniques. If you're just going to stick your head in the sand then we'll end this debate now, it's not like it's the first time I've gone through it here in the last two months.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by krazy1912 Can someone explain to me what economy picking is?

 

 

Economy picking is when you pick in the most economical direction. It's at this point that you can understand why buddastrat is confused but I shall continue further... Each stroke of the pick has it's own movement so you would normally end up picking with the joint of your thumb and first finger (circular picking), this way you can attack each string as you move your hand. At faster speeds everything tightens up and it becomes a wrist movement like AP.

 

This is the fundamental difference between sweep picking and economy picking. Although at first glance you would play the same thing in the same way (ie a 3 string 1nps arpeggio) sweep picking is actually a slow strum, one long movement, whereas economy picking is a series of individual movements.

 

In the end what do we achieve? Well it's comfort really and what comes naturally to you. Economy picking and Alternate picking sound the same but the techniques are subtly different. There are technical advantages with them both but they're relatively minor overall.

 

Why all the confusion? Well the rock guitar community is made up of mostly alternate pickers. The understanding of economy picking comes purely from reading articles on it written by alternate pickers who themselves don't really get EP (vicious circle!) There is another person to blame for this, a certain Frank Gambale. He uses economy picking but goes much further than that, his technique is based more upon sweep picking. However the biggest misunderstanding is that picking down and up is alternate picking, it's not, AP is a series of strict picking directions based around a rhythm.

 

Hope this helps, I can give you some exercises and examples if you're interested further. just PM me.

 

Phew.

[NoirAbattoir]

I think they both have their place and if you want to be well rounded you will be proficient with either method because each method will give you a different feel/sound. I mean, I don't think I could ever alternate pick as fast as I can economy pick, but the stacato and tone you get with alternate picking is really sweet and different. It just adds another dimension. To me, it's a big goal for me to get my alternate picking speed up. I think everyone should.

[NoirAbattoir]

Originally posted by Kinetic This myth has already been shown to be false.

I don't agree with you.

[buddastrat]

Originally posted by Kinetic Economy picking is when you pick in the most economical direction. It's at this point that you can understand why buddastrat is confused but I shall continue further... Each stroke of the pick has it's own movement so you would normally end up picking with the joint of your thumb and first finger (circular picking), this way you can attack each string as you move your hand. At faster speeds everything tightens up and it becomes a wrist movement like AP. This is the fundamental difference between sweep picking and economy picking. Although at first glance you would play the same thing in the same way (ie a 3 string 1nps arpeggio) sweep picking is actually a slow strum, one long movement, whereas economy picking is a series of individual movements. In the end what do we achieve? Well it's comfort really and what comes naturally to you. Economy picking and Alternate picking sound the same but the techniques are subtly different. There are technical advantages with them both but they're relatively minor overall. Why all the confusion? Well the rock guitar community is made up of mostly alternate pickers. The understanding of economy picking comes purely from reading articles on it written by alternate pickers who themselves don't really get EP (vicious circle!) There is another person to blame for this, a certain Frank Gambale. He uses economy picking but goes much further than that, his technique is based more upon sweep picking. However the biggest misunderstanding is that picking down and up is alternate picking, it's not, AP is a series of strict picking directions based around a rhythm. Hope this helps, I can give you some exercises and examples if you're interested further. just PM me. Phew.

Dimeola uses economy picking for his crosspicking as I said already. simply consecutive strokes in the same direction you're going. You must've missed this.

Circle picking is different than economy picking! Very different. Some people sweep with circle picking though.


So sweeping is in fact economically picking as taught at GIT as does Guitar Player. They had a class called economy picking and guess what they taught? Sweeping! How 'bout that kinetic?



And AP can be strict up and down picking with OR without regarding rhythm. Plenty of players out there do that. You are really misleading a lot of people and are wrong (or confused?) on quite a few points.

Again, what player can do that and sound like Morse or Gilbert?
You still are avoiding that one.

[bond]

i've always tried to alternate pick, but for some faster stuff, i often economy pick

[Tarv]

I understand your point Kinetic. but lets face it dude, Damn near every guitarist that know any bit about technique think that economy picking is sweep picking, magazines and instructor's do as well. Hell, Dimeola doesn't call it econmy picking in his book, he just call's it consecutive downstrokes or up strokes. same with McLaughlin, Tal Farlow, Coryell, Pass. It's just old school Jazz picking technique, there's no catchy name for it. Just multiple downstrokes or upstrokes in row, depending on the phrase it may be up,up down.... or down,down up.. etc. It's just plain old fashioned pick'n:thu:

[buddastrat]

Originally posted by Tarv I understand your point Kinetic. but lets face it dude, Damn near every guitarist that know any bit about technique think that economy picking is sweep picking, magazines and instructor's do as well. Hell, Dimeola doesn't call it econmy picking in his book, he just call's it consecutive downstrokes or up strokes. same with McLaughlin, Tal Farlow, Coryell, Pass. It's just old school Jazz picking technique, there's no catchy name for it. Just multiple downstrokes or upstrokes in row, depending on the phrase it may be up,up down.... or down,down up.. etc. It's just plain old fashioned pick'n:thu:

 

 

 

EXACTLY!

[GorillaLover]

practice the exact same licks with both and don't think about it so much when playing in other situations..

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by ColorsoundKid I don't agree with you.

Prove it.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat Circle picking is different than economy picking! Very different. Some people sweep with circle picking though.

You don't understand circular picking if you think someone can sweep with it. It's like saying you can do a sweep with alternate picking, you can't because they fill the same technical space.

So sweeping is in fact economically picking as taught at GIT as does Guitar Player. They had a class called economy picking and guess what they taught? Sweeping! How 'bout that kinetic?

The blind leading the blind. It doesn't make it right, perhaps you should listen to someone who economy picks.... like me for example? As for guitar magazines I learned ages ago that they not bibles of information, it's rare that I don't find one with mistakes in it.

And AP can be strict up and down picking with OR without regarding rhythm. Plenty of players out there do that. You are really misleading a lot of people and are wrong (or confused?) on quite a few points.

errrr... nooo... Alternate picking is done to a strict rhythmic pattern. Each sub division of the beat has it's own direction. I can see that there may be a little confusion in what I stated, I don't mean that AP is, for example, constant 16ths, just that the hand movement does that.

Again, what player can do that and sound like Morse or Gilbert? You still are avoiding that one.

I'm not avoiding it because I've already said that you have no idea who economy picks and who alternate picks. we all know that Gilbert and Morse are alternate pickers because they state it and are reliable.... but what about malmsteen or Shawn Lane? There's lots of discussion about them. I tell you there's no difference in the sound and explain why, you reply by sticking your head in the sand. As I said it's not simply a case of picking down and up. Now do you really think the lick I've posted will sound different when using EP as opposed to AP?

edit: Use notepad to open the file.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by Tarv I understand your point Kinetic. but lets face it dude, Damn near every guitarist that know any bit about technique think that economy picking is sweep picking

Ignorance is acceptable now? How can anyone expect to do a technique properly when they don't understand it in the first place?

magazines and instructor's do as well.

What do you think I am?

Hell, Dimeola doesn't call it econmy picking in his book, he just call's it consecutive downstrokes or up strokes. same with McLaughlin, Tal Farlow, Coryell, Pass. It's just old school Jazz picking technique, there's no catchy name for it.

Economy picking is the the name although when I was at University one of my teachers called it follow-through picking. Again why excuse ignorance? The technique that's now pretty much universally called 'sweep picking' used to be called 'raking'.

Just multiple downstrokes or upstrokes in row, depending on the phrase it may be up,up down.... or down,down up.. etc. It's just plain old fashioned pick'n:thu:

If it was all just 'picking' why the debate? Because there are different techniques, different ways of achieving the same thing.

[buddastrat]

Originally posted by Kinetic You don't understand circular picking if you think someone can sweep with it. It's like saying you can do a sweep with alternate picking, you can't because they fill the same technical space. The blind leading the blind. It doesn't make it right, perhaps you should listen to someone who economy picks.... like me for example? As for guitar magazines I learned ages ago that they not bibles of information, it's rare that I don't find one with mistakes in it. errrr... nooo... Alternate picking is done to a strict rhythmic pattern. Each sub division of the beat has it's own direction. I can see that there may be a little confusion in what I stated, I don't mean that AP is, for example, constant 16ths, just that the hand movement does that. I'm not avoiding it because I've already said that you have no idea who economy picks and who alternate picks. we all know that Gilbert and Morse are alternate pickers because they state it and are reliable.... but what about malmsteen or Shawn Lane? There's lots of discussion about them. I tell you there's no difference in the sound and explain why, you reply by sticking your head in the sand. As I said it's not simply a case of picking down and up. Now do you really think the lick I've posted will sound different when using EP as opposed to AP? edit: Use notepad to open the file.

Man, you are one screwed up guitar player and you're spreading a lot of BS here confusing others. Watch Yngwie and EJ use circle picking with sweeping technique! He does it on the Arpeggios from Hell video I was just watching.


Yngwie alternate picks certain lines and he'll use sweep for other lines, also mixing. and yes, I can tell the difference. Trilogy Suite is played with AP for the main riff. When he changes to the Am arp section, he uses his circular sweeping technique. There's two examples. You are waaaayyy off.


AP does not have to follow the subdivided beats!! Most students learn this within the first year. Again, another bunch of BS there. Take a riff like Immigrant Song by Zep. Can be played by placing the down strokes on down beats and upstrokes on the up beats for alt. picking.

Now play the riff with strict AP and you will see that the picking will place a few upstrokes on the downbeats!

You seem to be very closed minded and only what you (think) you know is correct. You're spewing a lotta trash here.

[buddastrat]

 

 

BTW, if you do the techniques correctly that chromatic excercise should sound different. That's the whole point here. They should sound different so that you can get different sounds.

 

Much more aggressive when alt picked. Smoother when econ picked.

 

Years ago, Paul Gilbert said he avoids economy stuff because he likes the aggressive sound of alt picking. Don't believe me? Check out Scarified in the old days, and how it was played compared to how Gilbert changed it up for his preferred picking.

 

Paul changed it up to alt. pick and string skip as he likes the sound more and went in that direction.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat Man, you are one screwed up guitar player and you're spreading a lot of BS here confusing others.

Confusing you because you don't have a clue what you're on about.

Watch Yngwie and EJ use circle picking with sweeping technique! He does it on the Arpeggios from Hell video I was just watching.

Errr... that's a natural hand movement involved in sweep picking, it is not circular picking. It's caused because your arm moves through two axes, not one.

Yngwie alternate picks certain lines and he'll use sweep for other lines, also mixing. and yes, I can tell the difference. Trilogy Suite is played with AP for the main riff. When he changes to the Am arp section, he uses his circular sweeping technique. There's two examples. You are waaaayyy off.

How can you tell he alternate picks it? There is a maximum of 5 different picking directions (none consecutive) in the entire run from trilogy suite, if you think that can make a difference you're deluding yourself. just because his hand goes down and up does not mean he's alternate picking.

AP does not have to follow the subdivided beats!!

Yes it does to be alternate picking.

Most students learn this within the first year.

Don't worry, when you get to the end of the first year you'll find out it doesn't.

Again, another bunch of BS there. Take a riff like Immigrant Song by Zep. Can be played by placing the down strokes on down beats and upstrokes on the up beats for alt. picking. Now play the riff with strict AP and you will see that the picking will place a few upstrokes on the downbeats!

Confused? You are! At no point would strict alternate picking yield anything other than downstrokes on the beat.

You seem to be very closed minded and only what you (think) you know is correct. You're spewing a lotta trash here.

Lets see:

You try to debate economy picking but don't know what it is, you try to debate circular picking but don't know what it is (ref: your piss poor examples), you try to debate alternate picking but don't know what it is.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat BTW, if you do the techniques correctly that chromatic excercise should sound different. That's the whole point here. They should sound different so that you can get different sounds.

 

 

How should they sound different? In what way? Don't give me that 'smoother' crap. Playing them legato as opposed to picked would sound different. How is the example I posted supposed to sound different? Have you even tried it? Can you even play it?

 

 

Much more aggressive when alt picked. Smoother when econ picked.

 

 

Oh look, there's the Emperor with his new clothes.

 

 

 

Years ago, Paul Gilbert said he avoids economy stuff because he likes the aggressive sound of alt picking.

 

 

Second hand information is pretty futile, can you get me a link to this Gilbert quote. Or is it that he said sweep picking?

 

 

Paul changed it up to alt. pick and string skip as he likes the sound more and went in that direction.

 

 

What does string skipping have to do with this unless you're again trying to lump EP in with sweep picking by saying that PG string skips arpeggios rather than sweeps them?

[Kinetic]

Okay Genius:

What did I use here?

[Kinetic]

How about this one?

[Kinetic]

Or this?


should be easy.... come on! Everyone join in!

[buddastrat]

Originally posted by Kinetic Confusing you because you don't have a clue what you're on about. Errr... that's a natural hand movement involved in sweep picking, it is not circular picking. It's caused because your arm moves through two axes, not one. How can you tell he alternate picks it? There is a maximum of 5 different picking directions (none consecutive) in the entire run from trilogy suite, if you think that can make a difference you're deluding yourself. just because his hand goes down and up does not mean he's alternate picking. Yes it does to be alternate picking. Don't worry, when you get to the end of the first year you'll find out it doesn't. Confused? You are! At no point would strict alternate picking yield anything other than downstrokes on the beat. Lets see: You try to debate economy picking but don't know what it is, you try to debate circular picking but don't know what it is (ref: your piss poor examples), you try to debate alternate picking but don't know what it is.

Watch the EJ instructional video, where he talks about circle picking. Then get back to me, moron.

Then study some YJM riffs and learn how to execute them.

A good player can tell easily how YJM picks that stuff. If you know how to play someone's style you'll know which direction he picks to get the phrasing. If you can't tell, then I'm done here because you're a novice. And I ain't wastin' no more time.


Here's for anyone who cares and can understand what I was talking about. I think it's pretty clear there is more than one way to alt. pick. Here ya go:

Strictly alt. pick Immigrant Song riff. Here it is, since kinetic probably can't figure it out.

--------------------------------------------------

------------------------------------------------

-----------------------------------------------------

---------------4--------------------------------------------

-------------------------------------------------------

---2---2-2------2---0-------------------------------------------


Alt pick in a pendulum fashion will yield D DUDU U

Strict alt. pick will be D UDUD U Puts an upstroke right square on beat 2 (higher octave F#).

Some people do that to take advantage of the more aggressive outside picking string skip.

[buddastrat]

Originally posted by Kinetic Or this? should be easy.... come on! Everyone join in!

 

 

 

There's no conviction in that for either technique. You could play that holding the pick with your pinky doing ALL upstrokes!!! It has neither the aggressive attack and conviction of alt. picking or the smoothness of econ. Sounds choppy and wimpy.

 

It does have a thin Rockman tone with a bunch of verb or delay though.

 

When I say alternate picking sound, I'm talking about aggressive, tight playing. Muted, fast stuff. Play that at 180-200 bpm and mute the strings, and lay into it man! It'll sound like a chainsaw Gilbert riff. That's what I'm talking about.

 

Then do it with yer econ picking and you'll hear the difference.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat Watch the EJ instructional video, where he talks about circle picking. Then get back to me, moron.

Eric johnson the alternate picker?

Then study some YJM riffs and learn how to execute them.

Been there, done that

A good player can tell easily how YJM picks that stuff. If you know how to play someone's style you'll know which direction he picks to get the phrasing.

Oh yes, that gives it away? I though it was the sound?

If you can't tell, then I'm done here because you're a novice. And I ain't wastin' no more time.

Too late matey.

Here's for anyone who cares and can understand what I was talking about. I think it's pretty clear there is more than one way to alt. pick. Here ya go: Strictly alt. pick Immigrant Song riff. Here it is, since kinetic probably can't figure it out. -------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------ ----------------------------------------------------- ---------------4-------------------------------------------- ------------------------------------------------------- ---2---2-2------2---0------------------------------------------- Alt pick in a pendulum fashion will yield D DUDU U Strict alt. pick will be D UDUD U Puts an upstroke right square on beat 2 (higher octave F#).

Funny how you're still not reading what I wrote. Strict Alternate picking is based around a rhythm. In the case of The Immigrant song it's semiquavers (16ths). I don't disagree with the way it's picked but I do take issue with your concept of the rhythmic grouping (which is why you think I'm wrong)

Some people do that to take advantage of the more aggressive outside picking string skip.