Members Knottyhed Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic Yes with you, in the last alternate/economy picking thread LOL - i honestly can't remember... never mind - half the fun of this forum is going over and over the same old tired points. Anyway, I'd love to stay and chat, but I've got to go onto the EG forum and talk about Gibson quality control... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kinetic Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by Knottyhed LOL - i honestly can't remember... never mind - half the fun of this forum is going over and over the same old tired points. I've been on guitar forums for nigh on ten years now, it's always the same old crap but it keeps me coming back Anyway, I'd love to stay and chat, but I've got to go onto the EG forum and talk about Gibson quality control... This I got to see Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic This I got to see I reckon once i've done that I may move on to the merits of Asian vs. US made guitars, start a post about Kurt Cobain and then come back in here to ask about economy-picking again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kinetic Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by Knottyhed I reckon once i've done that I may move on to the merits of Asian vs. US made guitars, start a post about Kurt Cobain and then come back in here to ask about economy-picking again. I see your a person who likes to stimulate a good debate, or is that wind people up? (both are good!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic I see your a person who likes to stimulate a good debate, or is that wind people up? (both are good!) LOL - ideally I can do both at the same time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Frank Prince Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Originally posted by Sarricola_Sauce Different strokes for different folks. I was trained by one of those neoclassical viking types who used to only teach sweeping. He never mentioned anything about true alternate picking to me. That ended up really screwing me over later on when I go into jazz. When you alternate, your swing improves immensly, if yer into that sorta thing. Then it just swing is just a matter of accenting yer upstrokes. I love watching shred players trying to play jazz with sweep picking, sounds like they're riding on a horse.Bump bumBUMP bumBUMP bumBUMPI've been trying the last few years to become as quick at real alternating as I was with sweeping. When I practice, I alternate, but when I play live or when improvising, I just let it flow. Most of it I try to alternate, but of with a lot of my licks I just need to sweep. When recording, its whatever technique gets it done fasted with the best results, and both are acceptable depending on the tune or style. Interestingly enough, economy picking was used extensively by some older jazz players to bring their speed up. I remember reading an article by either Howard Roberts or Tommy Tedesco in the '70s outlining the technique. The key to either approach is to have control over the weight of each note. That's probably where the shredders were falling down. With economy picking I have to work on not accenting the note that I am falling through to. With alternate picking I work on keeping the notes even when playing a line that mixes inner and outer picking at high speeds. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members atarilovesyou Posted March 14, 2006 Members Share Posted March 14, 2006 Tons of responses on this thread, and I also had the exact same 'problem' in the beginning. Learning mainly from mags, that's where I heard of alternate picking but when I tried to do it, I was such a weak picker on the upstroke (which many economy pickers are, the ones I've heard) that crossing to the new string using an upstroke seemed far too strange....hence I stuck with economy picking even though I didn't know I was doing it. Economy picking doesn't sound as sharp and distinct as alternate picking, but you can go faster in some runs using it. Unless you can't do both, I'd say go alternate picking. It took me many years (of not so dedicated practicing) to switch, but now I can pretty much do it all....it's a good feeling knowing that you can alternate pick through a passage and sweep anywhere you want with authority. I'm sure Yngwie doesn't even think about picking directions. I used to be really concerned with it, and I'm not really anymore. I think to be truly versatile you should be able to pick ANY direction at any given moment...hard, and I'm not there by a long shot, but that's my goal. But of course, use what you like. If you don't like the crispness of your runs though, and you're economy picking, then switch it up....and if you're NOT a shredder, economy picking is pretty hard to justify...pentatonics can be shredded using alternate picking about as fast as you could ever imagine (check Shawn Lane). My 2 cents. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members typedeaF Posted March 15, 2006 Members Share Posted March 15, 2006 I dont pick anything, ever, because I couldnt decide which technique is better. I do "lift-offs" on everything. Its a "lift off" not a "pull-off"... "lift-off" Just in case you think im kiddinghttp://www.typedeaf.com/lessons/NoPick.avi Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kinetic Posted March 15, 2006 Members Share Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by atarilovesyou Tons of responses on this thread, and I also had the exact same 'problem' in the beginning. Learning mainly from mags, that's where I heard of alternate picking but when I tried to do it, I was such a weak picker on the upstroke (which many economy pickers are, the ones I've heard) that crossing to the new string using an upstroke seemed far too strange....hence I stuck with economy picking even though I didn't know I was doing it. Everyone's upstrokes are weak at first because you're fighting against gravity. Your picking style has nothing to do with it, Steve Morse will sometimes practice upstrokes for the reason you stated. I'd like to know who these economy pickers were. Economy picking doesn't sound as sharp and distinct as alternate picking I hearby challenge anyone to prove this. I'm sure Yngwie doesn't even think about picking directions. Who does? I think to be truly versatile you should be able to pick ANY direction at any given moment...hard, and I'm not there by a long shot, but that's my goal. No offence mate but it seems like a pretty futile goal, I'm sure you'd be much better putting your efforts into something more worthwhile. Hey if you're succesful maybe you could call it 'quantum picking' because it's both economy and alternate and neither at the same time But of course, use what you like. If you don't like the crispness of your runs though, and you're economy picking, then switch it up.... hehe and if you're NOT a shredder, economy picking is pretty hard to justify... That's wrong. It's used by plenty of jazz players, that's how I got into it properly. pentatonics can be shredded using alternate picking about as fast as you could ever imagine (check Shawn Lane). You're using Shawn Lane as an example of alternate picking? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted March 15, 2006 Members Share Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic Everyone's upstrokes are weak at first because you're fighting against gravity. That's why I always pick upside down... I usually try to do it somewhere high up as well where the air is thinner and I get less drag. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kinetic Posted March 15, 2006 Members Share Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by Knottyhed That's why I always pick upside down... I usually try to do it somewhere high up as well where the air is thinner and I get less drag. ROFL The question is how would a guitarist learning soley in a zero-G environment cope on Earth? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted March 15, 2006 Members Share Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic ROFL The question is how would a guitarist learning soley in a zero-G environment cope on Earth? Obviously a good practice regimen should include both zero-G and high-G practice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Moggo Posted March 15, 2006 Members Share Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by typedeaF I dont pick anything, ever, because I couldnt decide which technique is better. I do "lift-offs" on everything. Its a "lift off" not a "pull-off"... "lift-off" Just in case you think im kidding http://www.typedeaf.com/lessons/NoPick.avi I smelll a rat!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Yngtchie Blacksteen Posted March 15, 2006 Members Share Posted March 15, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic You're using Shawn Lane as an example of alternate picking? What's wrong with that? His alternate picking was incredible, very fast and fluid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members typedeaF Posted March 16, 2006 Members Share Posted March 16, 2006 Originally posted by Moggo I smelll a rat!! I am just trying to entertain myself. Dont be calling me out! What in the hell is in the cats mouth of your avatar anyway?! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members atarilovesyou Posted April 19, 2006 Members Share Posted April 19, 2006 I think the guy was trying to say that Shawn Lane was a FREAK who could pick just about anything, anywhere.....he's an amazing alternate picker. I appreciate all the different views and responses, especially when they're done so in a non-derogatory way, which they weren't!...I wish there were more folks locally who get into these topics, because the more you discuss the better you get. My whole thing 'against' economy picking was that for me, it seemed to easy to do in the beginning and I couldn't nail certain techniques because my string attacks weren't crisp enough....perhaps that was due to inexperience, and to be honest I can pick either way and they sound pretty close....it's just I feel more confident on the up stroke to a higher string. As far as the goal of fluid picking up or down, I'm already doing it and in the years to come I hope it keeps coming. Of course, my goal is to just be able to pick my runs crisp and clean without worrying or feeling my up or down strokes a particular way. And it makes great practice to do the runs with an opposite picking style to what you normally do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted April 21, 2006 Members Share Posted April 21, 2006 I have a buddy who plays alot of Van Halen style guitar and I think he uses the economy picking technique. He does it well and what ever he does sounds impressive, but once I found out what he was doing, I was disappointed because it really is kind of playing slop. After thinking about it, I have to go back to my impression which was it DID sound good. I plan on trying to learn to do it well as an alternate picking technique, but still use my rotating picking as my foundation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Tweedbucket Posted April 21, 2006 Members Share Posted April 21, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic Vai alternate picks Paul Gilbert is a very strict alternate picker. Malmsteen ecomony picks. I take it EVH economy picks ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Tarv Posted April 21, 2006 Members Share Posted April 21, 2006 Originally posted by Dr. Tweedbucket I take it EVH economy picks ? Eddie uses mostly hammer's and pull's. When he does use alternate picking it's usually on just one string. Dont think he use's any economy picking though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kinetic Posted April 22, 2006 Members Share Posted April 22, 2006 Originally posted by Dr. Tweedbucket I take it EVH economy picks ? Dunno, Eddie's not know for long picked runs. As Tarv says he tends towards a more legato style. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members buddastrat Posted April 23, 2006 Members Share Posted April 23, 2006 There is a difference in sound and I like to use both depending on what I want. As said earlier, sweeping (econ) will yield a smoother sound, and alt. picking is more percussive and even. Listen to Dimeola, Gilbert, Petrucci, Morse etc.. Very alt. pick sounding all the time on their leads. I like the sound of the guys like Eric Johnson and Yngwie that mix it up a bit. I don't care for the real smooth "Gambale sound" all the time. It gets boring real quick. I seen another jazz guy on the tube and he did it the same way. Everything tends to have the same dynamics. I read where EJ says he'll play around with a line until he finds a way to play it well. So he looks for the best way instead of making himself get stuck on inside alt. picking or whatever. The best players to me, are the ones that aren't even aware of what strokes they're doing. They mix it. But then they approach the guitar for playing their own stuff. They don't try and play other people's stuff or other styles with the specific conviction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kinetic Posted April 23, 2006 Members Share Posted April 23, 2006 Originally posted by buddastrat There is a difference in sound and I like to use both depending on what I want. As said earlier, sweeping (econ) will yield a smoother sound, and alt. picking is more percussive and even. This myth has already been shown to be false. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members buddastrat Posted April 23, 2006 Members Share Posted April 23, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic This myth has already been shown to be false. Where? I've never seen an econ guy be able to sound like Paul Gilbert or Morse with that aggressive conviction. Even in bluegrass, the monsters teach to econ pick on the "DD" or "U U" crosspicking patterns when you want the smoother sound, and to alternate when you want the more articulate, punchy sound. It's skills to master. Sure, you could use the back end of a screw driver to pound in that nail, but why not use all the tools available? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Kinetic Posted April 24, 2006 Members Share Posted April 24, 2006 Originally posted by buddastrat Where? I've never seen an econ guy be able to sound like Paul Gilbert or Morse with that aggressive conviction. You wouldn't know if they had because you can't tell the difference. Here's a debate we had: http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1190514&perpage=20 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members buddastrat Posted April 24, 2006 Members Share Posted April 24, 2006 Originally posted by Kinetic You wouldn't know if they had because you can't tell the difference.Here's a debate we had:http://acapella.harmony-central.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&threadid=1190514&perpage=20 Sure we could tell, by watching and listening. I was just checking out the Guitar publication from England and they show Morse's Tumeni Notes. they interview him and analyze his technique. Anyhow, they come to the conclusion that alt. picking will give it that pop, and to econ it, will make it smoother sounding. It's good to use both and it helps give players their own style. It's just that alt. picking that is so damn hard! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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