Alternate picking vs. "Economy" Picking

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat There's no conviction in that for either technique. You could play that holding the pick with your pinky doing ALL upstrokes!!! It has neither the aggressive attack and conviction of alt. picking or the smoothness of econ. Sounds choppy and wimpy. It does have a thin Rockman tone with a bunch of verb or delay though. When I say alternate picking sound, I'm talking about aggressive, tight playing. Muted, fast stuff. Play that at 180-200 bpm and mute the strings, and lay into it man! It'll sound like a chainsaw Gilbert riff. That's what I'm talking about. Then do it with yer econ picking and you'll hear the difference.

hehe, I've got you so riled.

So let me get this right: the answer is that you can't tell the difference?

That all that needs to be said, bye bye

[buddastrat]

Originally posted by Kinetic hehe, I've got you so riled. So let me get this right: the answer is that you can't tell the difference? That all that needs to be said, bye bye

My answer was you did NEITHER! You had none of the conviction of the said techniques. Just because someone "tries" to alt. pick or econ pick doesn't mean it will sound right! It takes years of practice (hint)

aaannnnddd... Hell yeah! I like gettin' riled up on this stuff! I can't believe how much you post here and the way you played that, if you're a good player, that didn't show it.


That clip showed no conviction in either style, so AFAIC you didn't do either. So, I have no problem saying that. It sounded like a two month beginner picking. It could've been anything being that wimpy!




"errrr... nooo... Alternate picking is done to a strict rhythmic pattern. Each sub division of the beat has it's own direction. I can see that there may be a little confusion in what I stated, I don't mean that AP is, for example, constant 16ths, just that the hand movement does that." -kinetic


I called you on that statement for all to see, and that hand movement does not have to be constant, and now you try and BS out of it. Owned, you pole smoker.

Thanks, I'm havin' a great day!!!!

[Auggie Doggie]

[Auggie Doggie]

[buddastrat]

Here's some masterful alt. picking and machine gun from the one and only! And comedy too!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPGA3vjMLgE

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat My answer was you did NEITHER! You had none of the conviction of the said techniques. Just because someone "tries" to alt. pick or econ pick doesn't mean it will sound right! It takes years of practice (hint)

Goalposts moved? Check.
Straws clutched? Check.

aaannnnddd... Hell yeah! I like gettin' riled up on this stuff! I can't believe how much you post here and the way you played that, if you're a good player, that didn't show it.

Oh dear god I dared to alternate pick and economy pick notes at a slow tempo using a clean tone and now buddastrat doesn't rate me.

That clip showed no conviction in either style, so AFAIC you didn't do either.

I hear those straws being clutched again. Face the facts matey I showed your "I can tell the difference between alternate picking and economy picking" boast to be false and now you're deseperately trying to cling on to anything you can. It's over, move on.

So, I have no problem saying that. It sounded like a two month beginner picking. It could've been anything being that wimpy!

hehe, you're not even good with insults

I called you on that statement for all to see, and that hand movement does not have to be constant, and now you try and BS out of it. Owned, you pole smoker.

By posting an example that proves exactly what I'm saying? Way to go you! You sure are special

Thanks, I'm havin' a great day!!!!

That'll be the drugs then

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie

Are you trying to chill or are you saying we're both women? Or both?

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat Here's some masterful alt. picking and machine gun from the one and only! And comedy too! http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nPGA3vjMLgE

Yep, Gilbert is ace. It's good to know that his machine gun sound is all down to his picking and not his high gain, trebley tone

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Kinetic Are you trying to chill or are you saying we're both women? Or both?

It just seemed like an appropriate point in time to observe women doing yoga.

[NoirAbattoir]

Originally posted by buddastrat Man, you are one screwed up guitar player and you're spreading a lot of BS here confusing others. Watch Yngwie and EJ use circle picking with sweeping technique! He does it on the Arpeggios from Hell video I was just watching. Yngwie alternate picks certain lines and he'll use sweep for other lines, also mixing. and yes, I can tell the difference. Trilogy Suite is played with AP for the main riff. When he changes to the Am arp section, he uses his circular sweeping technique. There's two examples. You are waaaayyy off. AP does not have to follow the subdivided beats!! Most students learn this within the first year. Again, another bunch of BS there. Take a riff like Immigrant Song by Zep. Can be played by placing the down strokes on down beats and upstrokes on the up beats for alt. picking. Now play the riff with strict AP and you will see that the picking will place a few upstrokes on the downbeats! You seem to be very closed minded and only what you (think) you know is correct. You're spewing a lotta trash here.

 

 

Your argument really crushes kinetic, but he won't admit it. I agree with you completely. Thanks for pointing out valid examples in real music.

[NoirAbattoir]

Originally posted by Kinetic Or this? should be easy.... come on! Everyone join in!

 

 

First of all, everyone has a different pick attack. My pick attack is very hard. You may have a very light attack and so your method doesn't relly prove out the fact. You're generalizing from your own experience and that's not valid.

[dastardlydrvish]

I once knew a dead horse named Zeke
Who had excellent picking technique
The forumites beat him
till worms came to eat him
Thank God! He was starting to reek!

Get it?

The above limerick may not be reproduced or reprinted without the explicit consent of the managment.
Signed: The Management

[fatfat]

suck my breast

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by ColorsoundKid First of all, everyone has a different pick attack. My pick attack is very hard. You may have a very light attack and so your method doesn't relly prove out the fact. You're generalizing from your own experience and that's not valid.

Yes, yes of course. Now it's not the picking technique that causes the difference in sound it's how hard the pick attack is.

Where are those goalposts?

Re-read your own post.

You've basically said that it doesn't matter whether you use EP or AP it's about how you pick the strings.

Or to put it another way

Because I attacked the strings in the same way you couldn't tell the difference between AP and EP.

or......

AP and EP produce the same sound, the attack of the pick produces different dynamics.


Do you have any idea how to do a comparison? Everything should be equal so what you are comparing is not 'contaminated' by other variables. In the case of my examples I used the same tone, the same pick attack, the same pickup, the same tempo, the same guitar, the same plectrum, the same volume and tone settings, the same lead, the same mp3 conversion rate etc... The only difference aside from the different picking techniques is that I was probably picking closer to the bridge in the second example. I'll re-do it if you want because I'm sure it'll make all the difference.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by ColorsoundKid Your argument really crushes kinetic, but he won't admit it. I agree with you completely. Thanks for pointing out valid examples in real music.

Dumb still isn't right if dumber agrees with him.

Sadly for you in your very next post you (and to use your own words) crush your own argument by saying that the pick attack, and not the picking technique, is the one that has the bearing on the sound (or to that effect).... I actually agree with that.

So, from my examples can you tell the difference? No, you can't and it's the thing that tops any argument you could have.

Let me put it this way, if I had played one of the examples legato you would be able to tell the difference with any tone and at any tempo. If I'd used my fingers you'd have been able to tell the difference. You can't tell the difference because there is none, I mean you didn't even get Knottyhed's examples right and there was only two of them!

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie It just seemed like an appropriate point in time to observe women doing yoga.

When isn't an appropriate time?

[Auggie Doggie]

Originally posted by Kinetic When isn't an appropriate time?

That's a good question.

[buddastrat]

Originally posted by Kinetic Dumb still isn't right if dumber agrees with him. Sadly for you in your very next post you (and to use your own words) crush your own argument by saying that the pick attack, and not the picking technique, is the one that has the bearing on the sound (or to that effect).... I actually agree with that. So, from my examples can you tell the difference? No, you can't and it's the thing that tops any argument you could have. Let me put it this way, if I had played one of the examples legato you would be able to tell the difference with any tone and at any tempo. If I'd used my fingers you'd have been able to tell the difference. You can't tell the difference because there is none, I mean you didn't even get Knottyhed's examples right and there was only two of them!

I get what you're saying dude. And at very basic levels, you can make either sound the same. I'm talking the elite, advanced execution of any technique has it's own sound from bluegrass to shred.

I can play slow, and soft and make EP, AP, hybrid- hoover vacuum picking all sound exactly the same. But each will have it's own benefits and dynamics when you execute them at a pro level of performance.

You will not make EP sound like Paul Gilbert's main riffs. I'd like to hear someone play Scarified with EP. It won't sound like Paul. It just won't have that machine gun thing.

Besides Gambale, Marty Friedman does a lot of EP. He has very little aggressive attack.

Here's another example of picking dynamics?
You will not get the pummeling, jack hammer effect of James Hetfield unless you straight downpick. Listen to Petrucci alt. pick the Master of Puppets riff. Petrucci's great, but he makes it sound weak, so then even AP ain't enough. Yeah, you can pound a nail in the backside of a screwdriver but.......


Each technique, when it's excecuted at the elite level, has it's own sound. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat I get what you're saying dude. And at very basic levels, you can make either sound the same. I'm talking the elite, advanced execution of any technique has it's own sound from bluegrass to shred.

 

 

Where are those goalposts going?

 

 

I can play slow, and soft and make EP, AP, hybrid- hoover vacuum picking all sound exactly the same. But each will have it's own benefits and dynamics when you execute them at a pro level of performance.

 

 

That's a cop out.

 

 

You will not make EP sound like Paul Gilbert's main riffs. I'd like to hear someone play Scarified with EP.

 

 

We all accept that PG picks very agressively but as I've stated before his high gain trebley tone has a huge influence on it too. Whether he AP's or EP's has no bearing on it.

 

 

It won't sound like Paul. It just won't have that machine gun thing.

 

 

Give Paul Gilbert a telecaster and a Roland JC-120 and see if he can replicate it.

 

 

Besides Gambale, Marty Friedman does a lot of EP. He has very little aggressive attack.

 

 

And? We're not discussing which players pick really hard and which don't. We're talking about who uses which technique. Stop trying to imply that picking softly is an integral part of EP and picking hard is an integral part of AP.

 

 

You will not get the pummeling, jack hammer effect of James Hetfield unless you straight downpick.Listen to Petrucci alt. pick the Master of Puppets riff. Petrucci's great, but he makes it sound weak, so then even AP ain't enough. Yeah, you can pound a nail in the backside of a screwdriver but.......

 

 

Again you're going off on a tangent, we're not debating who picks hard or whatever we're on about the sound of EP and AP.

 

 

Each technique, when it's excecuted at the elite level, has it's own sound. That's my story and I'm stickin' to it.

 

 

We'll have to agree to disagree because short of meeting up and me showing you first hand there's no way I can change your mind.

[dan_plus_o]

I am not going to read all the posts, but anyway....

I play alternate picking and after watching a lesson video by "Micheal Angelo Bandito" I am now practiceing, what he calls, Alternative picking.

[buddastrat]

Originally posted by Kinetic Give Paul Gilbert a telecaster and a Roland JC-120 and see if he can replicate it. .

 

 

 

 

I use a tele as my main guitar and I can get very aggressive and percussive AP, of course Paul can, he actually prefers hard tails. I bet he'd love a tele.

 

Paul Gilbert sounds like a friggin popcorn machine exploding through a tiny clean Peavey practice amp. I know, I was there in a small room with him. Watch him on his instructional video when he plays clean.

 

Lets see to summarize for anyone that's missed it, Gilbert, Morse, GIT, and many publications, that say AP gives a more percussive, aggressive sound over sweep and EP, and in my experience, it's true.

 

After that clip, I'm done debating this. I just don't think you're gonna get it.

 

But I had fun.

 

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat I use a tele as my main guitar and I can get very aggressive and percussive AP, of course Paul can, he actually prefers hard tails. I bet he'd love a tele.

You could get a very agressive, percussive EP. Using a tele through a JC-120 is not going to sound like Gilbert's tone on Scarified, it's not going to have that 'machine gun' quality.

Paul Gilbert sounds like a friggin popcorn machine exploding through a tiny clean Peavey practice amp. I know, I was there in a small room with him. Watch him on his instructional video when he plays clean.

It doesn't sound like a machine gun though does it?

Lets see to summarize for anyone that's missed it, Gilbert, Morse, GIT, and many publications, that say AP gives a more percussive, aggressive sound over sweep and EP, and in my experience, it's true.

Head. In. Sand. I've proved you to be wrong and the only way you can correct this in your head is to attempt to discredit me. GIT? Guitar magazines? Come on! Morse and Gilbert are well known AP's, got any quotes by them? Got any examples? Good job at lumping sweep picking in with EP again despite me telling you on numerous occasions that they're not the same

After that clip, I'm done debating this. I just don't think you're gonna get it.

The one undeniable fact remains that you couldn't tell the difference between economy picking and alternate picking and are now trying to turn it into a deabte about picking dynamics in an effort to win the argument.

[buddastrat]

It was about dynamics and articulation all along you limp wristed, fairy picker! But okay, you're right and the whole world's wrong!

All bow to the great kinetic who has mastered the art of picking like a two month beginner.

[Kinetic]

Originally posted by buddastrat It was about dynamics and articulation all along you limp wristed, fairy picker! But okay, you're right and the whole world's wrong!

LOL So now you're saying that it's not actually the picking directions which matter (main difference between EP and AP) but a completely independent facet
all together? Nice one cupcake.

All bow to the great kinetic who has mastered the art of picking like a two month beginner.

hehe, petulance.

[GorillaLover]

Originally posted by Auggie Doggie It just seemed like an appropriate point in time to observe women doing yoga.

Your books rock, man!

Just wanted to say