Members Knottyhed Posted September 10, 2008 Members Share Posted September 10, 2008 regular old school vintage trem can do amazing stuff if you learn how to do it. I get mine to stay in tune as well as any Floyd and no stupid wrenches needed. What a pain. I used to use Floyds for years and know how to set them up well, to overtune to compensate for tuning up so that the bridge equalizes etc.. They're still a pain and I got to the point where it was not only a hassle but I felt a little embarassed, that I couldn't just grab a strat and do it, because I seen people do it. I sat there for a couple hours with an old strat '66) and figured it out. Now, no more training wheels. I agree that vintage trems can stay in tune better than most people realise, particularly if you've got locking tuners at the other end and the trem is set hard against the body with plenty of spring tension... my Silhouette's vintage trem is more solid than my kahler trem for example, in fact it is very solid indeed tuning wise... of course it isn't a fully floating system so can't do everything a floyd can and isn't quite as stable. If you FR is a decent model, is not worn out and is set up/installed properly it is almost impossible to send it out of tune. You can't say the same of any other trem out there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted September 10, 2008 Members Share Posted September 10, 2008 These video's demonstrate that quite nicely. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jy1eiMZ5nUkhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0K350...eature=relatedhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U41Fj...eature=related Cool vids. Thanks for the education, I see your point now. EDIT: from the "related links" -- "Gypsy Guitar with Floyd Rose Tremolo" "Be Patience"... EDIT #2: SWEET JESUS! Same crazy bastard tapping out Always With Me: Dear god I need to go practice... I HEART YOUTUBE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted September 11, 2008 Members Share Posted September 11, 2008 Yeh Carlos Vamos is incredible - check out his Little Wing cover if you didn't already! I gather that he busks for a living!? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted September 11, 2008 Members Share Posted September 11, 2008 Incredible. Yes he appears to with "Lindsay Buckland" and also he sells a CD. I am going to go buy one. This guy is one of the finest axemen I've ever heard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members buddastrat Posted September 11, 2008 Members Share Posted September 11, 2008 I agree that vintage trems can stay in tune better than most people realise, particularly if you've got locking tuners at the other end and the trem is set hard against the body with plenty of spring tension... my Silhouette's vintage trem is more solid than my kahler trem for example, in fact it is very solid indeed tuning wise... of course it isn't a fully floating system so can't do everything a floyd can and isn't quite as stable. QUOTE] ernie Ball makes a nice trem. But I don't even like locking tuners. The pins get stuck after awhile or the wheel comes loose. Just give me regular old strat tuners like Klusons where there are no string ends. The cheapies work fine. You can pick up the guitar and shake it by the bar, and stay in tune. It's all in proper stringing, stretching and understanding how the system works together. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted September 12, 2008 Members Share Posted September 12, 2008 You can pick up the guitar and shake it by the bar, and stay in tune. It's all in proper stringing, stretching and understanding how the system works together. 2 examples of diving on a vintage trem leaves you having to spend half the song trying to retune your guitar... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=R_nO0F4ugss&feature=related Maybe you need to these guys and their guitar techs how to string a strat? I have never seen anyone, ever abuse a strat trem and get away with, and I have never got a strat trem to stay 100% in tune. I have got them to perform better than alot of people realise though -it definately is true you can get good performance if you avoid too many windings, stretch the strings extremely well, lubricate the nut/saddles with graphite, set the spring tension hard against the body . Do all that, and you'll get a tremolo system that is usable, but hardly 100% trust worthy and frankly it is at least as much hassle as using a floyd! If you install locking tuners you'll get a trem that is far more solid, if you install a Floyd Rose, then and only then can you swing the guitar around by the trem arm and expect it to come back in tune. The vintage style trems will allow you get away with the odd dive bomb and are really only trustworthy for add vibrato to notes/chords. I'd say you're either deliberately play devil's advocate, are kidding yourself about how stable your vintage trem is, or you're simply tone deaf and don't know when you're playing out of tune! :poke: I've not seen the jamming problem Schaller locking tuners, but the Sperzel's are absolutely crap for doing that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members axolotls Posted September 28, 2008 Members Share Posted September 28, 2008 i have one original floyd on a bernie and it stays pretty much in tune (sometime need a 1/4 turn on a fine tuner) after pulling up +2-1/2 and dropping and warbling. I had a FRII on a cheap guitar that would never stay in tune w/o one of them aftermarket things you put in the trem cavity. It's a massive pain to restring, reintonate a FR, but it's worth it and I am thinking it's the quality of the guitar, as well as proper setup that makes it stay "in tune" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted September 28, 2008 Members Share Posted September 28, 2008 Hey Knottyhed my guitar tech says you're wrong. He was here to pick up my guitar (/w Kahler) and I showed him your post. He laughed and said, "Trust me, Kahlers are much better than Floyd Roses". I'm not getting in between it but this guy knows guitars. So... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 1, 2008 Members Share Posted October 1, 2008 Hey Knottyhed my guitar tech says you're wrong. He was here to pick up my guitar (/w Kahler) and I showed him your post. He laughed and said, "Trust me, Kahlers are much better than Floyd Roses". I'm not getting in between it but this guy knows guitars. So... Yeh - well the guy who built one of my electrics says the same thing. It's the difference between guys that play guitar and guys that make guitars. The kahler is superior in that it you can fully adjust it, you don't need to rout huge amounts of wood and there's no knife edges to wear out, or mounting posts that can shift over time. A guitar tech thinks that's bloody marvellous. The Floyd is superior in terms in staying in tune, and as I'm not a guitar tech or luthier who has to install and adjust these things for customers, that's all I care about. If FR hadn't patented the fully locking at both ends idea, I'd prefer kahler. But there's no getting around the fact that without that feature the kahler will never be as good. You've got a kahler guitar, I'm assuming you can put it out of tune with a combination of extreme whammy abuse and hard string bending? Try that on a FR, it'll not only be in tune, it will be exactly as in tune as it was when you started. Ergo your tech is wrong . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted October 2, 2008 Members Share Posted October 2, 2008 t's the difference between guys that play guitar and guys that make guitars.The kahler is superior in that it you can fully adjust it, you don't need to rout huge amounts of wood and there's no knife edges to wear out, or mounting posts that can shift over time. A guitar tech thinks that's bloody marvellous. My guy's a decent guitarist, he has a band, etc. Anyhow I see your point. I have a Charvel with a Floyd Rose here also, it's about as good. I like them both. What about this Schaller Knottyhed?http://www.kyowashokai.co.jp/caparison-eng/e-07product/e07applehorn.html I'm thinking of buying an SE Orange... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members mosiddiqi Posted October 2, 2008 Members Share Posted October 2, 2008 My guy's a decent guitarist, he has a band, etc.Anyhow I see your point. I have a Charvel with a Floyd Rose here also, it's about as good. I like them both.What about this Schaller Knottyhed?http://www.kyowashokai.co.jp/caparison-eng/e-07product/e07applehorn.htmlI'm thinking of buying an SE Orange... That looks like a pretty nice guitar...I have a Schaller Floyd fitted to my Hamer, it's fantastic. Pretty much as good as the original FR imo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 2, 2008 Members Share Posted October 2, 2008 My guy's a decent guitarist, he has a band, etc. Anyhow I see your point. I have a Charvel with a Floyd Rose here also, it's about as good. I like them both. What about this Schaller Knottyhed? http://www.kyowashokai.co.jp/caparison-eng/e-07product/e07applehorn.html I'm thinking of buying an SE Orange... Heh - you can be a decent guitarist with abusing the trem Anyway, that's my argument and I'm sticking to it... it's borne out by my own experience and that of alot of other people and yeh - techs and luthiers often prefer the Kahler because it is easier to install and setup. I've no experience with the Schaller, but I've heard nothing but good things about it, general consensus is that is as good as the OFR. FYI - I've used several guitars with the gotoh FR copy, it is every bit as good as the OFR in my opinion and is cheaper than both the schaller and OFR (handy to know if you're doing a project guitar). Don't get me wrong though, I don't dislike the kahler exactly... in fact I prefer the feel and like the adjustability, but given the choice I'd take a FR every time because the one thing it undoutedly does better is stay in tune! For some people their needs/style of playing might mean the kahler is good enough stability wise, but not me. Love the colour on the SE Orange by the way! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stricken Posted October 3, 2008 Members Share Posted October 3, 2008 I've heard a lot about the Ibanez Edge III before I bought my RG.Today marks two months, and all I can say is that it takes a little paitence and getting-used-to. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Music Calgary Posted October 3, 2008 Members Share Posted October 3, 2008 I detest those Ibanez systems. I'd rather have piss in my eye than deal with an Edge system in the heat of a gig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members SLEEPER 86 Posted October 3, 2008 Members Share Posted October 3, 2008 interesting, i have never tried a floyd rose trem but i have a vintage kahler with a floyd locking nut on my warmoth strat. i can beat the piss out of the strings until i break one and maybe need a 1/4 turn of a fine tuner or two after an hour or two of really hard playing and up and down abuse! the way my guitar is set up though, i am limited to reasonable dive bomb travel before bottoming out on the body. the flat mount and the knobs kind of dictate where the bar can be. BUT that sweet spot was very easy to adjust to. i am building a new warmoth, and tossing the trem idea around again. this body came with a hipshot which seems very well built. problem is it's not black and i have never tried one before. i'd be suprised if it came close to either the floyd or the kahler. also looked at the wilkinson vs-100 but again, never tried one. keep the opinions coming! that's what i love about this forum! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Knottyhed Posted October 3, 2008 Members Share Posted October 3, 2008 Wilkinsons are nice units, a modern take on your vintage strat trem really, with the same tuning stability issues. IOW's you'll want to pair it up with a neck that has a shallow break angle over the nut, a straight string pull and ideally some locking tuners. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members eyesonly Posted November 18, 2008 Members Share Posted November 18, 2008 If you install locking tuners you'll get a trem that is far more solid, if you install a Floyd Rose, then and only then can you swing the guitar around by the trem arm and expect it to come back in tune. The vintage style trems will allow you get away with the odd dive bomb and are really only trustworthy for add vibrato to notes/chords. Ages ago....I had a Strat, a Samick Valley Arts one, with a WIlkinson tremolo full floating. I got an lsr roller nut installed. My other guitar at the time was also a Samick, a Blues Saraceno TV20 with Floyd Rose. You could pickup the TV20 by the bar and shake it around and then bend it till the strings went flat and the neck creaked and it would come up in tune pretty much perfectly. I also had an old Ibanez RG470 and it had almost dead perfect tuning. Ie you could play Major7th chords in tune still after trem abuse. With the Strat, I would say no way could you firstly get anything like the same pitch bends up or down but it too remained in tune fairly well, but if you did extremes of bending it would go out of tune noticibly. I definately only felt comfortable with gentle true vibrato up down sounds which is all I used it for. Lovely feeling trem BTW. 2cents Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted November 18, 2008 Members Share Posted November 18, 2008 Vintage fender-style tremolos stay in tune fine for me. And for floating action, modern fender bridges stay in tune just fine too, even under heavy abuse, dive bombs, swinging the guitar around by the bar, ect... Roller nut or not. Locking tuners don't seem to affect tuning stability much. Standard ones and vintage ones work fine if you string your axe up well. The only problem I've had is about every 8 months or so the bar breaks off and it's a minor nuisance to get the 'stump' out of the bridge. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members cyberman2 Posted December 22, 2008 Members Share Posted December 22, 2008 "I still havent encountered a floyd that will return perfectly to pitch from down and up trem movement. Mine will return from one or the other so I set it for for whammy down because this is usually what I use it for." I have: It's called a Vigier ball-bearing Floyd Rose (Unfortunately now only available on Vigier Excalibur Custom & Standard Guitars as well as the Bumblefoot model. However, I lucked out & got one that I now use on my Kramer Pro Axe standard before Patrice Vigier stopped selling them to non-customers of those guitars. Always returns to point zero everytime I use it(Both with up and down movement). I've tried convincing him to mine this goldmine he's got, but sadly, he won't. Says, "It's too much trouble." In other words, he'd rather concentrate on making guitars than being the guy who made the Floyd Rose tremolo even better[Which, in fact, he did. Sigh!].). Oh well, can't blame me for tryin'. And no, my Pro Axe w/ the Vigier trem on it's not for sale! Sorry! I love "my baby" & she's stickin' wid me! Now if only I could become an Ibanez endorser & convince them to custom make me an RG style guitar w/ a ZR trem on it... But I digress! Oh well, laters! Sincerely, Van Birmingham, Alabama Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jamingguitarist Posted December 22, 2008 Members Share Posted December 22, 2008 The only problem I've had is about every 8 months or so the bar breaks off and it's a minor nuisance to get the 'stump' out of the bridge. How do you get the stump out? Because I've had this problem a few times too, and still haven't found a good way to get it out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Jasco Posted December 22, 2008 Members Share Posted December 22, 2008 How do you get the stump out? Give my guitar and a $10 bill to the local repair guy and wait 10 mintutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Li Shenron Posted December 22, 2008 Members Share Posted December 22, 2008 Hi guys, I'm quite a newbie here.I've been told numerous times that Floyd Rose trem are a bitch to deal with in terms of ease of adjustment. I've never play around with them, but still curious IF there is any alternative to the current system. In this age of technology, there should have already been hundreds of innovations to solve this! I'd love to try them myself, but are discouraged by these tales of frustrations.any thoughts? I don't know what you're talking about. I had a Floyd Rose for more than 10 years and I rarely needed to adjust it... It may take longer to put on new strings, but really it's not a big deal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GreenAsJade Posted December 22, 2008 Members Share Posted December 22, 2008 I read scary stuff about FR, then I googled for a few tips, got on and have had no probs. I really don't know what the fuss is about in terms of "it's hard to setup". It just isn't! It _is_ a pain if you break a string, because you can't keep playing. That's the one downside. I hear the tremsetter fixes that, I might have to try one... GaJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members GreenAsJade Posted December 22, 2008 Members Share Posted December 22, 2008 So, after I typed that I went and looked at tremsetter on youtube, and from there to a video about how to block the pull up; then I did that ... an hour later my floyd rose is "down only", and no more "string break" emergencies! GaJ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Li Shenron Posted December 22, 2008 Members Share Posted December 22, 2008 It _is_ a pain if you break a string, because you can't keep playing. That's the one downside. That's true. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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