Need help with modes :(

[1979ckhtt]

I'm a bit lost with modes but I have a few simple questions.

 

Okay ill use the key of G Major.

 

G,A,B,C,D,E,F#,G

 

G Ionian

A Dorian

B Phrygian

C Lydian

D Mixolydian

E Aeolian

F# Locrian

 

lets say my chord progressive is I,IV,V. So G maj to C maj to D maj. Now over C maj and D maj do I play C Lydian (C,D,E,F#,G,A,B,C) and D Mixolydian (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D) or C Major (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C) and D Major (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#,D)?

 

Also I know that the modes create "different sounds" for example phrygian sounds very "spanish", but in my analysis I've seen that the modes are all the same notes of the major scale but in a different order based on the root note, so why do they even exist? How do I create the "spanish" sound that phrygian is associated with? Or the Diminshed sound Locrian is associated with?

 

Lastly, is there a point to modes? Why not just completely ignore them and just stick to the key of G Major (in this example)?

[girevik]

lets say my chord progressive is I,IV,V. So G maj to C maj to D maj. Now over C maj and D maj do I play C Lydian (C,D,E,F#,G,A,B,C) and D Mixolydian (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D) or C Major (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C) and D Major (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#,D)?

The shortest answer is try all of the above and let your ear decide.

It's true that C Lydian and D Mixolydian has exactly the same pool of notes as G Major - the only difference you will hear is in which note (C, D, or G) you emphasize more.

The relevance of modes to improvisation is a bit controversial in the jazz world. Obviously, those who are really into it are also into modal jazz. When I used to think in terms of "find the correct mode" in my improv thinking, modes were useful to me for finding things to play over chord changes. Practicing the most unusual sounding modes (Phrygian, Locrian) consistently helped open my mind to soloing ideas that didn't sound as boring as Ionian (aka the major scale) or the "correct" pentatonic scale.

Now I don't use them at all for soloing ideas. My approach is more oriented around jazz lines and licks - taking them from great jazz soloists, learning how to play them, then reusing them for my own playing. I also write my own lines.

[MetalJon]

Well, I'm not sure if I can answer the question, "Why do modes exist?" Modes exist because they do. It's sort of like asking, why are there diatonic scales? The human ear and brain are just arranged in such a way that these intervals sound musical.

 

Now, as to the question, "Why would I use modes?" that's a bit easier to answer. You'd use a mode of the major scale when you wanted to convey an idea sonically that you could not otherwise. For instance, the major scale contains a major third. The major third interval sounds "happy." When you play P1, M2, M3 (perfect unison (i.e. tonic, root), major second, major third) it conveys a lighter, happier feel than P1, M2, m3 (minor third), which sounds heavier or sadder. The minor third is an instantly recognizable difference between the major and minor scales. It's hard to answer this question with any more detail than that. You just need to hear the difference. Have you tried playing each of the modes? You should pretty much immediately recognize the difference.

 

Should you use anything beyond the major and minor scales? I leave that up to you. Most people don't. There are other scales that are used, such as the Blues scale, which is the minor pentatonic scale with an added diminished fifth. There is also a "Spanish scale," which is the Phrygian Dominant Scale, which differs from the Phrygian mode in that the third is major, instead of minor, so the interval between the second and third is an augmented second (step and a half). Maybe these are just academic to you. To other musicians, they offer the ability to express things melodically that cannot otherwise be conveyed using other scales.

 

I suggest just trying them out.

[SlaveNewWorld0]

 

How do I create the "spanish" sound that phrygian is associated with? Or the Diminshed sound Locrian is associated with?

 

 

This all depends on the tonic (i) chord of the progression corresponding with the root of the mode you're playing. So if you want that Phrygian flavour, the progression would most likely have to be i - bII (iii - IV from the major chord scale).

 

The progression must be able to properly resolve to the root chord of that corresponding mode in order to get the full "flavour" of that specific mode.

 

Similarly, to get the Locrian effect, it needs to correspond with a tonic diminished chord - however, it's very difficult to resolve a progression to a diminished chord, since it has a naturally unresolved sound.

 

A better example would by Mixolydian - tonic (I) becomes the corresponding V chord of the major scale, and a typical movement would be between V and IV or V and ii.

[SlaveNewWorld0]

 

There is also a "Spanish scale," which is the Phrygian Dominant Scale, which differs from the Phrygian mode in that the third is major, instead of minor, so the interval between the second and third is an augmented second (step and a half). Maybe these are just academic to you. To other musicians, they offer the ability to express things melodically that cannot otherwise be conveyed using other scales.

 

 

Excellent suggestion. Phrygian dominant provides a more harmonically weighted V chord in a minor progression, in place of a more "natural" minor v chord.

 

http://www.fretjam.com/harmonic-minor-phrygian.html

[1979ckhtt]

Now, as to the question, "Why would I use modes?" that's a bit easier to answer. You'd use a mode of the major scale when you wanted to convey an idea sonically that you could not otherwise. For instance, the major scale contains a major third. The major third interval sounds "happy." When you play P1, M2, M3 (perfect unison (i.e. tonic, root), major second, major third) it conveys a lighter, happier feel than P1, M2, m3 (minor third), which sounds heavier or sadder. The minor third is an instantly recognizable difference between the major and minor scales. It's hard to answer this question with any more detail than that. You just need to hear the difference. Have you tried playing each of the modes? You should pretty much immediately recognize the difference.

 

 

yea but what you're saying only makes sense if I play the mode from the root to the root an octave higher. If I don't do that and it was still able to make the sound that modes are known for, well then modes wouldn't exist now would they?

 

So with this in mind...ah {censored} it

 

could someone recommend me some metal/rock/prog solos that have the use of modes?

[SlaveNewWorld0]

 

yea but what you're saying only makes sense if I play the mode from the root to the root an octave higher. If I don't do that and it was still able to make the sound that modes are known for, well then modes wouldn't exist now would they? So with this in mind...ah {censored} it could someone recommend me some metal/rock/prog solos that have the use of modes?

 

 

No, not "{censored} it". Bad guitar player! Bad! Spank that arse so I don't have to!

 

Don't resort to parrot fashion learning. Look, you sound as though you're half way there. You've identified it's the root note that determines the flavour of the mode. Therefore, this is also the root note of your tonic/resolution chord.

 

Try playing E phrygian over the backing track below. This is a basic Phrygian inspired chord progression, the tonic chord being Em (i) (iii of the major scale). The progression moves between iii and IV of the major scale. It's the resolution to that tonic chord that defines the mode.

 

Download here

[MetalJon]

could someone recommend me some metal/rock/prog solos that have the use of modes?

 

Satriani is a big Phrygian dominant fan. I don't know which songs of his utilize it off the top of my head, but I'm sure Google does.

[Brian May]

To the OP - your suggestion over a I IV V in G - G C D to use G major (ionian) over the G then C Lydian over the C chord and D Mixolydian over the D chord is totally not getting the mode thing!! Essentially all your doing there is playing in G major!!

To get the mode sounds and use them like they're supposed to be used - ie to give your music different different flavours you have to look at them like for like ie all in 1 key - say G Ionian....play that over a G chord or drone...hear how the scale sounds what flavour it brings to your music. Then play G Dorian over a Gm chord (because dorian is a minor mode - it has a minor 3rd) hear that scale and the flavour that lends to a piece of music...do the same with G Phrygian over a G minor chord (the mode has a minor 3rd!) then try G Lydian over a G chord (Lydian has a major 3rd) and G Mixolydian over a G major chord....then G Aeolian over a G minor chord (Aeolian has a minor 3rd and is what we commonly know as E natural minor scale) then G Locrian over a Gm b5 chord. (this is the least user friendly of the 7 modes due to its b5 interval....how many chords sequences do you know having a b5 for its tonic chord??


So to clarify....

essentially we have 7 modes. 3 major sounding modes as they contain major 3rd intervals - Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian. And 4 minor modes - Dorian, Phrygian, Aeolian and Locrian. Just like our diatonic chords we have 7 but 6 are commonly used - the first 6.

Now play over a Gm chord and use the following modes - one at a time listening to their sound and feel

Gm - with Dorian scale for basis of your improv or composition. Record your feelings and thoughts on how this scale sounds and feels to you.

then...

Gm - playing Phrygian scale for the basis of your improv or composition. Record your feelings and thoughts on how this scale sounds and feels to you. You will notice it causes your music to have a different sound or mood to when you used Dorian - because in relation to the root note you have a different set of intervals!!

Gm - playing Aeolian scale for the basis of your improv or composition. Record your feelings and thoughts on how this scale sounds and feels to you. You will notice it causes your music to have a different sound or mood to when you used Phrygian - because in relation to the root note you have a different set of intervals!!

Now with the 3 major modes - Ionian, Lydian and Mixolydian do exactly the same thing with a G major chord.


Now you may be left wondering "but that was all over just one chord" well thats just for a start - to show you the basic feel or mood of a given mode. Now what chord sequences fit those modes? Well, starting with each scale take every other note - 1 3 5 of the scale what chord does that give? Then 2 4 6 of that scale what chord does that give? And so on till you have harmonised all the scales 7 intervals...you will end up with 7 sets of 3 notes which will be 7 chords!! Now the 1st chord is the key chord for that mode...and you can arrange the rest as you please as long as they pull back to that chord.


Oh this post is getting long so I'll leave it at that - someone else can
elaborate on chord progressions for the modes.

a few common examples - G Dorian - Gm>C7 or G>F>C>G for G mixolydian. Gm>Ab>Bb for G phrygian. bla bla bla

Just a final note - although this example isn't a mode just changing 1 note in a scale can massively change the sound of your music that you can make with a scale, its like a an artist all of a sudden having 1 colour taken off his palette and replaced with another totally different colour - the resulting painting with that 1 new colour (*in our musical case tone or note) makes a huge difference. Look at the difference say the natural minor has to the Harmonic minor - only 1 note is different - a major 7th in the Harmonic minor and this makes for a huge sound difference to the minor 7th in the natural minor scale.

[GreenAsJade]

 

To the OP - your suggestion over a I IV V in G - G C D to use G major (ionian) over the G then C Lydian over the C chord and D Mixolydian over the D chord is totally not getting the mode thing!! Essentially all your doing there is playing in G major!!

 

 

EXACTLY!

 

And the OP even worked this out himself.

 

For something to sound "modal" you have to be playing the mode over the corresponding root.

 

For example, if the song is rooted in G, strongly, then G Lydian will sound Lydian, G Phrygian will sound Phrygian etc. C Lydian over G is just G major.

 

This gets more confusing when you try to think of modes over chord progressions. If you know what you are doing, this is "advanced modal thinking" ... being able to make the mode work against the implied key, even when the chord changes. If you do _not_ know what you are doing, then you are totally confused in trying to do this. Because Modes are relative to a ROOT.

 

Have a look at this video to see a reasonable demonstration of this at work, and how you can experiment:

 

JKbPIGnqt80

 

There are a few poor explanations in here, and modes definitely will not be the answer to all your prayers, which this dude says they will. But this is the best demonstration I've seen of how modes relate to the ROOT.

 

Modes are all about G ionian G dorian G phrygian. Not about G ionan A dorian B phrygian etc.... in answer to the question "why do modes exist" ... modes sound different because each mode of a root (G ionan, G dorian etc) causes you to play _different_ intervals *against the root*.

 

And obviously if your root is G, then G ionan and C lydian don't do this: they result in the _same_ intervals against G.

 

GaJ

[strings&things]

Joe Satriani's "Flying in a Blue Dream" is a good example of the use of the Lydian mode ....

[ispytunes]

It's simple, your first analysis was correct. In G major, G - C - D. Ionian - Lydian - Mixolydian.

Now, no matter how you think about it, you will be playing those modes, that's how music works, how aware you are of this is a completely different matter...
it has nothing to do with jazz, it's just the basics of musical harmony.

It's like singing, you might not know what note you're singing, but it will still have a connection to the chord you sing it over. If it's in the key of G, the chord is a C, and you sing a E, you are singing a third of the Lydian mode. It really doesn't matter if you know what Lydian is or not, you still are singing the third of Lydian. If the chord change to a D, and ou keep singing the E, it's now a 9th of the mixolydian mode.

If you learn the modal shapes and improvise using the modes with full awareness you might sound better than if you are just guessing.

So understand the intervals in relation to the mode and you can be in control of the modes (that you are all ready playing)

the link is to a blog of how stairway to heaven use modes. but any song can be looked at in a modal way.

http://blog.spytunes.com/2009/09/09/how-stairway-to-heaven-use-modal-scales-to-reach-the-top/

[wader2k]

Music is really a series of intervals set to a tempo. Think about the fact that while A = 440 Hz is considered the standard, it has historically varied considerably. And yet, any song written for C can be playing with A equal to just about anything and it will still have C tonality because of the intervals .

 

 

I was with you until this.....

Say we transpose a song from the key of C to the key of G......the intervals are gonna be the same, no? I'm not sure I follow why it would still have C tonality. I can play a major scale in any key and the intervals are always gonna be the same. Unless something is meant by interval that i'm just not getting? A whole step is a whole step is a whole step!

 

Where am I going wrong?

[MetalJon]

I was with you until this..... Say we transpose a song from the key of C to the key of G......the intervals are gonna be the same, no? I'm not sure I follow why it would still have C tonality. I can play a major scale in any key and the intervals are always gonna be the same. Unless something is meant by interval that i'm just not getting? A whole step is a whole step is a whole step! Where am I going wrong?

 

Sorry, I was trying to drive home the point that pitch is relative, not absolute. I meant to illustrate that whether A = 440 or A = 480, the C scale will still be the C scale. The fact that C4 (middle C) is 261.60 Hz at A440 does not change the function of the intervals. The pitches will be different, but the scale will still sound the same.

 

I think where I screwed you up was in using C as a specific example instead of just saying "the major scale."

[wader2k]

Sorry, I was trying to drive home the point that pitch is relative, not absolute. I meant to illustrate that whether A = 440 or A = 480, the C scale will still be the C scale. The fact that C4 (middle C) is 261.60 Hz at A440 does not change the function of the intervals. The pitches will be different, but the scale will still sound the same. I think where I screwed you up was in using C as a specific example instead of just saying "the major scale."

ok we're back on the same page....

and i think i finally understand the USE of modes.....I understood a lot of it before as far as finding the notes of a mode.....but not the actual USE of it once I found the notes.....

I'm still a long way from putting all that under my fingers though.....and that gets back to shapes on the fretboard.....

[Brian May]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTQolymKmDA

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DCdZwASSKuk&feature=related

 

These are great Joe Satriani lessons on modes. The audio is out of sync a little but if you can get over that they are great for helping you understand the modes - Joe is a great teacher!!

[jonfinn]

yea but what you're saying only makes sense if I play the mode from the root to the root an octave higher. If I don't do that and it was still able to make the sound that modes are known for, well then modes wouldn't exist now would they? So with this in mind...ah {censored} it could someone recommend me some metal/rock/prog solos that have the use of modes?

 

 

Well, yes. If you can make the sound you want without being able to identify what music theory concept it's drawn from, then you're good. No further effort necessary.

 

I'd like to point out a coupla things tho:

 

-The concept of "mode" is simply a way of organizing tonality. It's possible to use the without knowing what they are. It's even legal! There are many other ways to arrive at roughly the same sound.

 

-It's possible to create a modal sound without playing the scale from root to root. In fact, modes are commonly used to create melodies. To me, something is "modal" when the "strongest note" in the phrase isn't the tonic of the major scale it comes from.

 

-If you play a G major scale over the G, C, D G chord progression, you'll get roughly the same result as playing G Ionian, C Lydian, D Mixo and G Ionian. So you're right in that example. G Ionian over all of it is simpler to think of.

 

-If you think mostly about scales when improvising, then the sound you'll make will tend to be "listen to my scales."

 

The good news is that you're on the right track. The bad news (and this applies to me as much as you....) is that the road is at least 400 times longer that I ever imagined.

 

Yikes!

[Jasco]

I'm a bit lost with modes but I have a few simple questions. Now over C maj and D maj do I play C Lydian (C,D,E,F#,G,A,B,C) and D Mixolydian (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C,D) or C Major (C,D,E,F,G,A,B,C) and D Major (D,E,F#,G,A,B,C#,D)? Also I know that the modes create "different sounds" for example phrygian sounds very "spanish", but in my analysis I've seen that the modes are all the same notes of the major scale but in a different order based on the root note, so why do they even exist? How do I create the "spanish" sound that phrygian is associated with? Or the Diminshed sound Locrian is associated with? Lastly, is there a point to modes? Why not just completely ignore them and just stick to the key of G Major (in this example)?

 

 

 

You may not want to hear my opinion, but if I were you I wouldn't worry to much about modes yet. Just get major and minor scale harmony and melody down really well. Usually I find if someone has questions like these they're not ready for modes yet. When you're ready for them, the knowledge will seem really obvious.

 

If you're determined to get into modes, and you want the really simple way to conceptualize them, then try to apply this one statement:

 

To use any given mode, let the scale tone associated with that mode function as your root note - both harmonically and melodically.

[MetalJon]

You may not want to hear my opinion, but if I were you I wouldn't worry to much about modes yet. Just get major and minor scale harmony and melody down really well. Usually I find if someone has questions like these they're not ready for modes yet. When you're ready for them, the knowledge will seem really obvious.

 

Probably the best advice, yet.

[SoldierStape01]

Did anyone realize in the video that his naming of modes was actually off...

 

He is talking in the key of E, so....

Ionian

E F# G# A B C# D#

Dorian

F# G# A B C# D# E

Phrygian

G# A B C# D# E F#

Lydian

A B C# D# E F# G#

Mixolydian

B C# D# E F# G# A

Aeolian

C# D# E F# G# A B

Locrian

D# E F# G# A B C#

 

He names all the modes backwards... I don't know just an oddity that bugged for like 2 min, that I had to type about....

[Jeffmo]

Your chord choices will sometimes dictate what scales or modes to use.

ex. if you are still in G major and play a chord progression that starts on say Aminor then you would consider using A dorian mode to solo with.

[BerkleeBill]

Lydian b7 over secondary dominants.








That's all I'm sayin...

[3shiftgtr]

Lotsa good stuff here on this thread.

But I think you want a shorter answer to your questions.

Dude, it is about how the intervals sound against the chord in the mode.
EACH INTERVAL HAS ITS OWN INHERENT CHARACTER (TONALITY) WHEN PLAYED AGAINST EACH CHORD IN ANY GIVEN DIATONIC PROGRESSION.

Therefore, each melodic interval structure will sound and function differently within each chordal context. Using your example in the key of G: playing a B note to a C note, back to a B note over a G major chord, will sound like happy resolution. B to C to B over a B minor chord will give you the spanish sound you mentioned. That's how each mode creates it's character and tonality.

So spend a little time really LISTENING to how the notes of any given mode REACT and COLOR the root chord of that mode. Get inside those intervals!!!!!

Hope this helps U to cut through.

[3shiftgtr]

and i think i finally understand the USE of modes.....I understood a lot of it before as far as finding the notes of a mode.....but not the actual USE of it once I found the notes..... I'm still a long way from putting all that under my fingers though.....and that gets back to shapes on the fretboard.....

wader2k- Yeah shapes are important. That is how we learn WHERE everything is. But in order to "put all that under (your) fingers", you've got to put it in your ear.:poke:

The best way I have found is to spend LOTS of improv time with each mode and it's harmony. LISTEN to each interval and how it deals with the root chord of that mode. Listen hard and concentrate on the notes and feel them. SCAT SING some simple melodies against that chord. FIND THE INTERVALS that really bring out the tonality and character of that mode. PLAY AND LISTEN. LISTEN, LISTEN, play, and LISTEN.

Part of theory's job is to help you HEAR the qualities of its inherent organization.

Hope I'm not over stepping here....I just read your post and couldn't help my teacher's instinct. I will STFU now.

[BerkleeBill]

So spend a little time really LISTENING to how the notes of any given mode REACT and COLOR the root chord of that mode. Get inside those intervals!!!!!

This.