Need help with modes :(

[wader2k]

wader2k- Yeah shapes are important. That is how we learn WHERE everything is. But in order to "put all that under (your) fingers", you've got to put it in your ear.:poke: The best way I have found is to spend LOTS of improv time with each mode and it's harmony. LISTEN to each interval and how it deals with the root chord of that mode. Listen hard and concentrate on the notes and feel them. SCAT SING some simple melodies against that chord. FIND THE INTERVALS that really bring out the tonality and character of that mode. PLAY AND LISTEN. LISTEN, LISTEN, play, and LISTEN. Part of theory's job is to help you HEAR the qualities of its inherent organization. Hope I'm not over stepping here....I just read your post and couldn't help my teacher's instinct. I will STFU now.

 

Overstepping? Not a chance!

 

I understand where you're coming from.....but to play and hear as you say first I have to know WHERE/WHAT to play. It can't get in my ear if I don't play it first and to do that I need to actually figure out where it is on the fretboard...natch?

 

I haven't spent any time other than briefly reading about it here and there so I really don't know the modes yet ...I just understand the concept intellectually if that makes any sense. I haven't spent the time to physically learn them on the guitar yet in order to start getting them to my ear. I probably play some modal stuff already I just haven't tried to understand or intellectualize it to that degree. Kinda seems I'm contradicting my self a bit so I hope you follow me.

 

Hey I ain't proud, don't hesitate to offer advise/tips.....the more I know, the more I realize I don't know! What I find most frustrating is that I haven't found a place that has the modes in nice logical/USABLE shapes for those starting out with them....there doesn't seem to be much consistency out there. Most places seem to make it more difficult than it really is. Now that I have a grasp on what is being done I think I can better assess what I'm looking for.

[GreenAsJade]

Your chord choices will sometimes dictate what scales or modes to use. ex. if you are still in G major and play a chord progression that starts on say Aminor then you would consider using A dorian mode to solo with.

 

 

How would this be any different than keeping the thinking simple and playing G Major when in G Major?

 

Modes have a place, but I'm missing how thinking modally is helping in this simple example.

 

GaJ

[Jeffmo]

How would this be any different than keeping the thinking simple and playing G Major when in G Major? Modes have a place, but I'm missing how thinking modally is helping in this simple example. GaJ

 

 

 

 

because even though your key is G major (G-A-B-C-D-E-F#) Your actual tonal center is based around A Dorian (A-B-C-D-E-F#-G)

Notice the only thing making this different from A minor is the F#.

[Jed]

 

I understand where you're coming from.....but to play and hear as you say first I have to know WHERE/WHAT to play. It can't get in my ear if I don't play it first and to do that I need to actually figure out where it is on the fretboard...natch?

 

 

well actually, . . . .

You don't need to know where to play it 'cause it can be played in many different locations. What you need to know is what the notes are. We learn what the notes are by using our ears (OK and a bit of theory) once we know the fretboard and all (and yes I do mean ALL) of the major scales in all positions and in all possible fingerings . . . .

 

Now that's something Im sure you didn't want to hear . . . .

 

Modes won't make sense until you know your major scales (which the modes are derived from)

 

cheers,

(Jed runs for cover . . )

[GreenAsJade]

 

because even though your key is G major (G-A-B-C-D-E-F#) Your actual tonal center is based around A Dorian (A-B-C-D-E-F#-G) Notice the only thing making this different from A minor is the F#.

 

 

Sure, but you can keep it simple and say "when the song is in G major, solo using G major, and choose notes from the scale that match the chords ... when you hit Am, grab the A often".

 

The problem with saying "If your key is G major and you have an Am chord for a bar or two, choose A Dorian" is that it doesn't seem to help people learn really what mode are about. It's valid, no doubt, but it blurs the line. "If it's a rock chord progression, just solo with the basic scales, and choose

notes that match the chords" seems like wise advice.

 

This is different to "If you have 8 bars of C#m7b5 choose C Locrian".

 

In this case, 8 bars of one chord kinda leaves the original key signature behind, and I think you are choosing the mode against the pitch axis of C.

And it's more of a jazz kinda thing.

 

At least, this is how it seems to me...

 

GaJ

[3shiftgtr]

Overstepping? Not a chance! Hey I ain't proud, don't hesitate to offer advise/tips.....the more I know, the more I realize I don't know! What I find most frustrating is that I haven't found a place that has the modes in nice logical/USABLE shapes for those starting out with them....there doesn't seem to be much consistency out there. Most places seem to make it more difficult than it really is. Now that I have a grasp on what is being done I think I can better assess what I'm looking for.

Wow, a guitarist with humility....am I on a tuba forum by accident?

The problem with teaching modes is that there are several ways of looking at and approaching them as a player; different approaches for different playing/musical situations. Most methods focus on one way and overcompensate for the other 'points of view'. Seeing all of the approaches a once often helps the student choose what works best for them. Alfred publishing has a book called "The Encyclopedia of Modes and Scales" by Jody Fisher. It is as clear a book on all of the approaches I have seen. The book delineates 4 different approaches and the harmony for each mode as well as some common fingerings. Then they provide examples in notation and tab. No nonsense and to the point. Sweepmeister Frank Gambale's DVD "Modes: No More Mystery" is well above average, although he focuses on one approach. Plus, you get to see him in a mullet and day glo (the 80's)!!

Everything is easy once you know how to do it, right? Once the modes become a part of your vocabulary, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. Wader2k, if you need any specific questions answered, holla here or my inbox anytime.

[wader2k]

Wow, a guitarist with humility....am I on a tuba forum by accident? The problem with teaching modes is that there are several ways of looking at and approaching them as a player; different approaches for different playing/musical situations. Most methods focus on one way and overcompensate for the other 'points of view'. Seeing all of the approaches a once often helps the student choose what works best for them. Alfred publishing has a book called "The Encyclopedia of Modes and Scales" by Jody Fisher. It is as clear a book on all of the approaches I have seen. The book delineates 4 different approaches and the harmony for each mode as well as some common fingerings. Then they provide examples in notation and tab. No nonsense and to the point. Sweepmeister Frank Gambale's DVD "Modes: No More Mystery" is well above average, although he focuses on one approach. Plus, you get to see him in a mullet and day glo (the 80's)!! Everything is easy once you know how to do it, right? Once the modes become a part of your vocabulary, you'll wonder what all the fuss was about. Wader2k, if you need any specific questions answered, holla here or my inbox anytime.

Exactly right! I already wonder why the explanation of modes seems so convoluted in a lot of places. I'm kinda no nonsense that way....show me what you are doing, why you are doing it, and then how it's commonly done and I'll take it from there......of course we all know that applying these things often works themselves out over a lifetime!

[bigboy_78]

I didn't understand that the root it is played against is not the new modes root BUT the original major scale root that it was derived from.

 

 

This doesn't sound correct. The drone note is the root of the mode.

 

If you're playing Bb major scale, starting on the second degree, over a static C the sound is going to be of a dorian flavour, because C becomes the root and relationship of the melody to the harmony changes.

 

If you play C dorian over a Bb drone, it is going to sound like you are playing the major scale.

[wader2k]

If you knew them all, you would understand Jed's point. This doesn't sound correct. The drone note is the root of the mode. If you're playing Bb major scale, starting on the second degree, over a static C the sound is going to be of a dorian flavour, because C becomes the root and relationship of the melody to the harmony changes. If you play C dorian over a Bb drone, it is going to sound like you are playing the major scale.

 

 

i DO understand Jed's point.....but anyway....

 

yes, we are saying the same thing......but my lingo is not proper so you misunderstand me. In the key of C to play a dorian mode I would stay in the key of C with a C drone so to speak and play the notes in a Bb major scale.......way back when i first encountered modes i thought they meant i would also change the drone C to Bb...which made no sense as you say because then you are just back to playing a major scale.....

 

What gets in the way here is the lingo....and the lingo doesn't always seem to be consistent even amongst folks who KNOW musical theory.....which is what confuses the folks unfamiliar with modes.

 

Everybody learns differently......and there is a better way to teach this stuff. For me give the nuts and bolts mechanics of it and I'll get into my fingers and ears.......

 

just like do re mi fa so la ti !! doh!

[wader2k]

Ok. Recent posts made me wonder if I really did have it right in my head. So I went and worked out these scales:

C Ionian...C major scale of course.
C Dorian....same notes as Bb major scale
C Phrgian...same as G# major scale(ok, is proper lingo G# or Ab?)
C Lydian....same notes as G major scale
C Mixolydian .....same notes as E# major scale
C Aeolian......same notes as D#(Eb?) major scale
C Locrian.....same notes as C# major scale(again lingo-wise i don't know if C# or Db is proper)

And this is why folks were saying if I knew the major scale everywhere in every fingering I would understand......but you see I do understand, it just takes me a minute to work it out.

So someone correct the above if it is wrong please and I'll go back to the drawing board!

[Jeff1979]

 

Ok. Recent posts made me wonder if I really did have it right in my head. So I went and worked out these scales: C Ionian...C major scale of course. C Dorian....same notes as Bb major scale C Phrgian...same as G# major scale(ok, is proper lingo G# or Ab?) C Lydian....same notes as G major scale C Mixolydian .....same notes as E# major scale C Aeolian......same notes as D#(Eb?) major scale C Locrian.....same notes as C# major scale(again lingo-wise i don't know if C# or Db is proper) And this is why folks were saying if I knew the major scale everywhere in every fingering I would understand......but you see I do understand, it just takes me a minute to work it out.

 

 

Nearly there, there's no such thing as E#, it would be F, C is a 5th above F.

 

I figure it out the same way, but of course you wouldnt just play for example C Dorian the Bb scale starting on Bb, you would start on the C, the intervals for C major have changed to T S T T T S T T, so you now have a flat 3rd and flat 7

[Jeff1979]

Learn the major scale for all keys inside and out, name a 3rd above F# a 6th above D etc etc, the intervals, the chords it creates once you have done that everything is easy..

The Major scale is the key to it all..

[BerkleeBill]

C Locrian.....same notes as C# major scale(again lingo-wise i don't know if C# or Db is proper)

Enharmonically speaking, C Locrian would be proper in Db Major. There is no "C" in the key of C#. The 7th tone is a B#.

Aren't you glad you asked??

[Jed]

With respect, I know you believe you understand what I meant, but until you really have learned all the major scales - you won't have the frame of reference to hear what I wrote. This of course will sound like bullsh*t, but I can't help that. The nature of modes is very clear when you understand what they do and how they are derived from the major scales. It's more than just formulae. You'll want to have the sounds in your head and not just one sound but hundreds of sounds as examples of how the modes function relative to the major scales. And not just one major scale but every major scale.

 

The questions about how to play are eliminated once you know 2 things - what to play and an in-depth knowledge of the fretboard. Five different guitarists might play the same notes 5 different ways in 5 different positions depending on how they choose to say what it is they hear.

 

Below is my version of modes trivia for those just starting to learn about modes (note that this is the function view of modes, the rules are different for truly modal music). I you can't write this directly and without calculation then you don't have the basics down - and it's too early to try and tackle modes.

 

C Ionian - the C major scale - C D E F G A B C - 1 2 3 4 5 6 7

the notes you'd play over a C maj chord functioning as the I maj chord

the C major chord in the Key of C major

Chord tones = C, E, G - 1, 3, 5

Extensions = B, D, A - 7, 9, 13,

Tensions = F - 11

 

C Dorian - a C minor scale - C D Eb F G A Bb C - 1 2 b3 4 5 6 b7

the notes you'd play over a C min chord functioning as the II min chord

the C minor chord in the Key of Bb major

Chord tones = C, Eb, G = 1, b3, 5

Extensions = Bb, D, F, A - 7b, 9, 11, 13

Tensions = none

 

C Phrygian - a C minor scale - C Db Eb F G Ab Bb - 1 b2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

the notes you'd play over a C min chord functioning as the III min chord

the C minor chord in the Key of Ab major

Chord tones = C Eb G

Extensions = Bb, F - 7b, 11

Tensions = Db, Ab - 9, b13

 

C Lydian - a C major scale - C D E F# G A B C - 1 2 3 #4 5 6 7

the notes you'd play over a C maj chord functioning as the IV maj chord

the C major chord in the Key of G major

Chord tones = C, E, G - 1, 3, 5

Extensions = B, D, F#, A - 7, 9, #11, 13,

Tensions = none

 

C Mixolydian - a C major scale - C D E F G A Bb C - 1 2 3 4 5 6 b7

the notes you'd play over a C maj chord functioning as the V maj chord

the C major chord in the Key of F major

Chord tones = C, E, G - 1, 3, 5

Extensions = Bb, D, A - b7, 9, 13,

Tensions = F - 11

 

C Aeolian - the C natural minor scale - C D Eb F G Ab Bb C - 1 2 b3 4 5 b6 b7

the notes you'd play over a C min chord functioning as the VI min chord

the C minor chord in the Key of Eb major

Chord tones = C, Eb, G = 1, b3, 5

Extensions = Bb, D, F - 7b, 9, 11

Tensions = Ab - b13

 

C Locrian - a C diminished scale - C Db Eb F Gb Ab Bb C - 1 b2 b3 4 b5 b6 b7

the notes you'd play over a C dim chord functioning as the VII dim chord

the C dim chord in the Key of Db major

Chord tones = C, Eb, bG = 1, b3, b5

Extensions = Bb, F, Ab - 7b, 11, b13

Tensions = Db - b9

 

I know you said you know these things, but please allow me to point something out. What you know about this stuff is somewhat formulaic. You "understanding" is based on facts that while true, do not express the full spectrum of the thing they try to define. Real useful knowledge of modes, comes after you have created a personal relationship with every major scale. Not before, there's no shortcut here. There is much drifting around in the dark, and many drifters looking for the shortcuts that don't exist.

 

C Locrian is not a formula we apply to C major to get C dim, it's a view of the sound of a C tonality in the key of Db. Likewise with all of the other modes. Don't think formula, think in terms of how some temporary tonality functions and works within another key center.

 

The answers you are looking for are available, just not in the place and in the way you are looking for them. The major scales, as boring and repetitive as they seem, hold all of the information that you're looking for. But they won't give up their secrets willingly or easily. The major scales demand that you know them all before they will tell you much. But when they do start to tell you about modes, they'd give you all the information your seek - at the same time.

 

cheers,

[Jasco]

For ex. Take an E major scale ...the 2nd note in the scale is F#...now build a major scale starting with F# and play that scale against an E drone....that is modal....correct?

 

 

Incorrect.

 

 

Your job is to find out why it's incorrect.

 

 

 

Or better yet, do what Jed says, and what I said earlier in the thread. Forget about modes for a while and work on mastering all aspects of the major scale.

[Jed]

i think the main reason over the confusion in understanding modes in the fundamental stages, is that most teachers start off defining modes as a derivative of a parent scale. as a result, people think that modes are just fingering patterns of one parent scale starting from a different note other than the root; and the confusion arises when they are used to thinking of modes as the fingering patterns, and thus they have trouble grasping the proper approach to treating modes. personally, i think modes should be treated as scales of their own right FROM THE VERY BEGINNING if you are to understand how they actually work. all modes represent a distinct tonality of their own.

 

 

Agreed. Teachers and players will see some aspect of modes (a reflection of or one (of many possible) manifestations of the thing within a very constricted framework) and then turn around and try to define the modes in those terms. Unfortunately this is how many human brains work. We can try to fight it, but we'll lose. It's human nature.

 

But what they are seeing is a single, very limited view of the thing. In order to "see" the larger picture, to see what modes are - relative to the larger subject of music - one needs to see and understand these things in hundreds of different settings, from hundreds of different perspectives, after spending many mind-numbing years coming to grips with just the major scales in all it's various flavors.

 

How many players do we lose because the cost of this method? How many people are willing to study what appears to be music 101 when what they want to play is advanced studies music. How do we instill a love for the simplicity and power of music fundamentals to those people who so strongly feel the need to jump ahead - into territory they are neither ready nor equipped to understand?

 

But then the obvious question arises, . . . . when to teach or learn modes? My opinion and that of some of the LL regulars is that modes are only of value after one really understands the major scales (from which modes are derived).

 

Part of the "challenge" is that understanding modes is easiest once the musician understands the major scales. It's possible to learn some things about modes before one knows the major scales. But the real understanding of the most important aspects of modes is driven by an in-depth knowledge of and perceived through the framework of - the major scales.

 

Unfortunately, too many think that others are just holding back knowledge until a questioner pays his dues. But what's really happening is that I (we?) believe that you can't understand the modes without a very strong facility with the major scales.

 

cheers,

 

Disclaimer: The above refers to "modes" relative to how most players use the term. Which is to say "in a functional framework". Of course in this case, we're not talking about modes at all but rather chord scales.

[Jed]

we seem to have a slight disconnect .... i know what you are aiming at ..... but you seem to not like the idea that the physical layout of the guitar makes any learning only possible thru patterns and boxes..... i do understand that those boxes and patterns will be absolutely USELESS unless one learns what to do with them and that is done with one's EARS to put it another way....i think you are focusing on what to play.......whereas I am at more of a HOW do I play it at this point. And yes I realize there are any number of ways to play things. While I probably don't know ALL the possible fingerings of the major scale i do know several and can quickly come up with a major scale from any starting point as I know how it's built.

 

 

There's a disconnect but it's a bit different from what you think (or rather from what I think you think). Knowing a major scale is different from being able to play one or from being able to assemble one from any note and/or any place on the instrument. It's more than being able to hear the major scale or the various degrees or the major scale. It's more than knowing the notes. It's more than knowing various patterns.

 

Music exists outside and well beyond our instruments. Any single instrument is a best a poor representation of what's possible. Music is not in the instrument, it's in the musician. The instrument is just the tool we utilize to make some music. All instruments are limited in one way or another. But the music within the musician has no such limits.

 

It's kind of like the Matrix movie. "Do you think that's air that you are breathing?" In the musicians mind, all things are possible. We train the mind and the ears and the fingers and the totality of our bodies to be able to empower our bodies to allow the music to "flow" through us. The traditional way to get to that point is via an almost martial-arts style like dedication to all aspects of music fundamentals and internalization of all those fundamental aspects of music.

 

Listen, I know studying the major scale is boring. But it's also the basis of our whole music system. The major scale is the very core of how we perceive music. There is no single aspect more important than the major scale. And it's not just the major scale, but the chords that are formed from the harmonization of the major scale, the arpeggios that project that harmonization, the tensions that bend those projections, the re-harms that transform and transmute those projections. There is a lifetime of study to be found in that one simple concept we call the major scale.

 

Once you recognize it's importance you can start to learn to think in that language. Until then the best you can hope for is a bad translation. It's your choice to make.

 

cheers and good luck, sorry I couldn't help.

[Jed]

Sorry for all the verbose language guys.
Apparrently I had a lot I wanted to say today.
I'll try to go back to lurk mode for a while . . . . . .

cheers,

[Jasco]

i think the main reason over the confusion in understanding modes in the fundamental stages, is that most teachers start off defining modes as a derivative of a parent scale. as a result, people think that modes are just fingering patterns of one parent scale starting from a different note other than the root; and the confusion arises when they are used to thinking of modes as the fingering patterns, and thus they have trouble grasping the proper approach to treating modes. personally, i think modes should be treated as scales of their own right FROM THE VERY BEGINNING if you are to understand how they actually work. all modes represent a distinct tonality of their own.

 

 

While I generally agree with your premise. I'd disagree with the section I hi-lighted.

 

I don't think a teacher or student should even approach modes in the beginning. Wait until after several years of playing.

 

Learn (or teach) everything you can about the major scale first.

 

Then do the same with the minor scale.

 

At some point along that process, the student should have a lightbulb pop on in their head and realize "Oh, this minor scale is actually just an inversion of the major scale."

 

At that point, understanding the modes both as separate scales as well as inversions of the major scale is easy.

[stomias]

I think you should teach the major scale in all its traditional positions AND the modes at the same time. As a student works through each position they can see it as a fingering of the major scale and when you introduce the harmonized scale (also at the earliest chance you can) they can see the relationship of the chord and the mode tha'ts built off of it. Then when all modes have been covered you can show how over a minor chord you have a choice of minor modes to choose from to add color to your palette. Early in my lesson days I was taught chords and their inverions and proper voice leading and how to build chords on my own. Then modes and scales. ALL in the first year. Everything is built from that and you can never start too early. I can hear and see a player who hasn't mastered the basics in the blink of an eye. I've listened to hundreds of clips on this site and have heard only a few that I would say had the knowledge of any any of my FIRST YEAR students (when I was teaching 20 years ago). I hear so much wankage it's scary. People, as always, want all the skills without ANY of the hard work!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[girevik]

Epic posts by Jed.

If I play you a little melody out of the major scale and you can't tell me what notes are the 3rd, 5th, and 7th is out of the scale, you're probably not ready for modes.

If I play you the major scale straight up and down at slow speed and you still can't tell me what notes are the 3rd, 5th, and 7th, you're really not ready.

[wader2k]

Nearly there, there's no such thing as E#, it would be F, C is a 5th above F. I figure it out the same way, but of course you wouldnt just play for example C Dorian the Bb scale starting on Bb, you would start on the C, the intervals for C major have changed to T S T T T S T T, so you now have a flat 3rd and flat 7

Regarding E#/F....oops ....hey, it was rather late.

The way I figured these out isn't really conducive to using them on the fly. What I did was to take the C major scale and then figure out what major scale would have the c note as the 2nd,3rd,4th,5th,6th,and 7th interval of it. It's kinda like coming at it backwards.

And yes I realize that once I figured out the scale/notes I would then start on the c and end on the c to come up with the altered intervallic pattern of each mode(in reference to the major scale of course). What I need to do now is approach this differently to make it more useful to me. I need to look at it from the intervalic(is that a word!?) approach directly instead of going the long way around to get to it. In other words I need to look at what intervals of the major scale are changed with each mode and go there directly for it to be useful on the fly.


Now my brain hurts....it's harder describing this than it is doing it.....especially when one doesn't have the vocabulary/lingo down.

[stomias]

Scale degrees...........basics. Tuning.......basic........Vibrato.....bending......listening instead of playing......basics.....chords, inversions , voice leading, harmonized scale, modes.........ALL basics. I hear the same bad techniques and lack of musical instruction in todays up and coming guitarists as I did 40 years ago.

[Jed]

 

Scale degrees...........basics. Tuning.......basic........Vibrato.....bending......listening instead of playing......basics.....chords, inversions , voice leading, harmonized scale, modes.........ALL basics. I hear the same bad techniques and lack of musical instruction in todays up and coming guitarists as I did 40 years ago.

 

 

It's as if everyone wants so badly to be a guitarist, but so few are willing to go through the process and effort of becoming a guitarist.

 

An interesting read about related issues:

http://cumpiano.com/Home/Articles/Articles/pedagog.htm

 

"there are no old dilettantes or fakers in this business. It is too complex and too elusive a thing to do. It rewards only the pure in heart, the ones that give themselves completely to it, and ask nothing from it, except the privilege to be allowed to continue."

 

cheers

[wader2k]

Incorrect. Your job is to find out why it's incorrect. Or better yet, do what Jed says, and what I said earlier in the thread. Forget about modes for a while and work on mastering all aspects of the major scale.

 

yes, you are correct...my example there was incorrect.