Need help with modes :(

[stomias]

"there are no old dilettantes or fakers in this business. It is too complex and too elusive a thing to do. It rewards only the pure in heart, the ones that give themselves completely to it, and ask nothing from it, except the privilege to be allowed to continue."

 

 

This^^^^^^^

 

 

So many dilettantes

[wader2k]

Epic posts by Jed. If I play you a little melody out of the major scale and you can't tell me what notes are the 3rd, 5th, and 7th is out of the scale, you're probably not ready for modes. If I play you the major scale straight up and down at slow speed and you still can't tell me what notes are the 3rd, 5th, and 7th, you're really not ready.

The thing is I CAN do both of those things and JED still insists I am not ready for modes. I am really not sure where he is coming from at this point. Hell I've been playing guitar for 30 odd years. Granted a lot of those years were very casual, but am not a novice.

Just because I have not memorized a bunch of note NAMES does not mean I cannot HEAR those notes and intervals in action and play them. I am beginning to sense that some here are doing the very thing they accuse me of doing...confusing intellect/knowledge with ear/hearing.

I seem to have hijacked this thread so I must apologize to the OP.

[jeremy_green]

wader

 

Jed is one of the most learned and most helpful members of this site. In my experiences here his advice is ALWAYS bang on the money. I would listen to his advice. He is right.

 

Were it I, I would take his above post and work on internalizing all that. The major scale is DEEP. Dig into it as far as you can and your questions will be answered. I always get a chuckle when people say "yeah I know that" because they have memorized the scale patterns as boxes. It goes WAYYY deeper than that. Lifetimes deep. The more time you spend diggin the more stuff in there you find.

 

Not trying to knock you or be a goof, just my 2 cents

[Jed]

 

The thing is I CAN do both of those things and JED still insists I am not ready for modes. I am really not sure where he is coming from at this point. Hell I've been playing guitar for 30 odd years. Granted a lot of those years were very casual, but am not a novice. Just because I have not memorized a bunch of note NAMES does not mean I cannot HEAR those notes and intervals in action and play them. I am beginning to sense that some here are doing the very thing they accuse me of doing...confusing intellect/knowledge with ear/hearing.

 

 

wader,

 

I'm sorry if I came off that way. I don't even know you so I couldn't possibly be able to make any determination about wether or not you are ready for modes. My posts and responses have never said that you personally weren't ready. I did suggest that maybe you aren't, but I would have no way to know one way or the other.

 

We get a lot of questions on modes here. And most often the problem is that people are trying to learn modes before they understand all the other stuff. Additionally, many of the regulars here have had this same conversation time and time again. Have a look at Jasco's first post on this thread. I said that same thing as Jasco, just a different way. Jasco is better at saying what's on his mind without offending people, me . . not so much.

 

No one is attacking you personally, not even when we response to your posts. We have been having an ongoing conversation about these things. You just happened to walk into the conversation, but we've been discussing these topics for years. Please don't take anything I say personally. It's not about you - it's about people in general. Take the time to re-read that article I posted, then re-read my posts and I think you'll see my point. You don't need to agree with me, hell - most people don't. But all we're doing here is talking. No offense or slight meant.

 

Cheers and good luck,

 

Jed

[girevik]

The thing is I CAN do both of those things and JED still insists I am not ready for modes. I am really not sure where he is coming from at this point.

 

 

I'm sure Jed didn't mean anything too personal - he's just trying to help us learn, as this is a learning forum after all. If you can play C major scale anywhere the neck now and convince him you can, that might help. I learned it by practicing it under the CAGED system, then under the Gambale 3-note/string system. I haven't practiced either system for years now, but that's another topic.

 

His post #39 on this thread has the goods on the modes. To make sense of it, you should be comfortable with the basics of chord construction and chord function within major scale harmony (which chord is the I, which chord is the IV, which chord is the VII dim, etc.). I have no doubt that after 30 years of playing, you can recognize the sound of each interval (minor 3rd, perfect 5th, major 6th, etc.) but your life will be made 100x easier after you learn the name of each interval and how chords are built out of them.

[GreenAsJade]

I agree with Lotus Feet that _at the time that modes start to be learned_ ('from the beginning' he said) the way that it should be started is with showing "what is E ionian, E dorian, E phrygian..." IE that these are scales with a root of E. What matters about modes is that they are scales with different intervales relative to a root.

 

The common starting point of "the notes in modes come from a shared scale eg C ionian, D dorian, E phrygian" is desparately unhelpful. Who cares that these modes share the same notes as C major? What matters from the point of view of how modes work is that modes relative to a same root have different intervals. If this was taught first, I think that a lot less confusion would result. _Sure_ it's good to know that C Ionian and D Dorian both share the same notes, it's fasctinating. But it doesn't shed light on the musical meaning of modes. The fact that C Ionian sounds different to C Dorian is why these two modes are intersesting, even though they are modes of different scales. I wish someone hadn't called this "Pitch Axis Theory", because that makes this important and simple and basic point sound big and scary

 

GaJ

 

Edit: this is a rock-musician point of view. It may be that if you are starting out in Jazz, the first thing you learn is the mode for each chord, and that's how the C ionian D dorian thing makes sense.

 

From the point of view of "how do I make a solo over a rock progression", this is deep end stuff. At least, that's my experience of it. YMMV.

[GreenAsJade]

On a tangential topic in this thread:

 

 

It's as if everyone wants so badly to be a guitarist, but so few are willing to go through the process and effort of becoming a guitarist.

 

 

I don't think most people wanting to be a guitarist are too lazy to learn what matters. Especially most people who come here.

 

The problem is elsewhere.

 

It's as if there are people out there who are so keen to be the teacher (maybe make money from ads on their lesson video?) they they offer magic for soloing from exotic sounding things like modes, promising that it's all you need to learn. It's the _promise_ that these will make things easy that is the problem, not "lazy" the guitarists coming to try to learn.

 

I thought of another thing. It may even be genuine enthusiasm on the part of teachers to share something that will help people quickly that contributes to this. Whichever way it is, I think the problem is more that the message is put about that there is an easy way, not that there are so many people not willing to learn what it takes.

 

GaJ

[ispytunes]

this video demonstartes the different sounds of three modes
[YOUTUBE][/YOUTUBE]

[wader2k]

wader, I'm sorry if I came off that way. I don't even know you so I couldn't possibly be able to make any determination about wether or not you are ready for modes. My posts and responses have never said that you personally weren't ready. I did suggest that maybe you aren't, but I would have no way to know one way or the other. We get a lot of questions on modes here. And most often the problem is that people are trying to learn modes before they understand all the other stuff. Additionally, many of the regulars here have had this same conversation time and time again. Have a look at Jasco's first post on this thread. I said that same thing as Jasco, just a different way. Jasco is better at saying what's on his mind without offending people, me . . not so much. No one is attacking you personally, not even when we response to your posts. We have been having an ongoing conversation about these things. You just happened to walk into the conversation, but we've been discussing these topics for years. Please don't take anything I say personally. It's not about you - it's about people in general. Take the time to re-read that article I posted, then re-read my posts and I think you'll see my point. You don't need to agree with me, hell - most people don't. But all we're doing here is talking. No offense or slight meant. Cheers and good luck, Jed

No problem Jed!
The internet has a tendency to amplify miscommunications and does lend itself to misunderstandings at times. I haven't been a participant here for long but have lurked here and other forums for ages so I am very familiar with the regulars frustration with modal topics and the misinformation potential and difficulty of assessing a students knowledge/understanding. It kinda frustrated me that my knowledge/ understanding was assumed to be lacking when as you say you really couldn't be sure.

My responses (and errors ) didn't help I'm sure! I was also kinda of wishy washy in stating what I knew and didn't know which would have helped at the outset. To correct that now here is a brief rundown of my history with the guitar...

I started playing at age 13-14.....First instructor took me thru almost 2 solid years of Mel Bay....fairly solid foundation there of things like major scale, chord construction, circle of 5ths,intervals, etc.
2nd instructor was more of a "bring a song in and we'll learn it" type. Went thru things like One of these Nights, Stormy Monday, Uriah Heaps' Stealing, Domino etc. Most of the time he taught me the rhythm and he played the lead and about the time we were getting more into lead the music store closed down and my lesson days came to an end. Except for a brief stint with a Jazz guitarist/drummer who spent some time helping me learn how to quickly read/play a piece off of piano sheet music in a 4 pc combo setting.

For the next 10-20 years I played casually for my own enjoyment .....some years more off than on but never got serious about it. About 5 years ago I got back into it with a gusto. I ran through the CAGED system and fretboard logic. I play well over an hour a day and some days far more. A few times in this period I've been invited to play with some pros in a praise band situation. The last time I was the sole guitarist in a trio and that was nerve racking but i learned that i could actually do this without sounding like an idiot....

At this point, what can I say, I enjoy music and always have. I make music for my own enjoyment and occasionally play for others. That's all that matters to me. I will never be technical wiz or an expert on theory and I don't care. My goals are not the same as someone who is young and thinking of devoting their lives and livelihood to music. Shortcuts? There are none and I am not seeking them..... but I believe I am at a point where I can learn to apply some of the concepts referred to as modes and see no reason to not try. Kinda like learning the pentatonic scales....I have not mastered them and probably never will....but I can apply them and improve upon my mastery day by day..becoming a better musician is a journey not a destination and we all are at different points on the road. We all learn differently. We all have different goals.

Anyway....no harm no foul ....and i assure you there are no hard feelings on my part for you or any other here. Peace!

FWIW .....I would like to acknowledge BrianMays post #9 on page 1 of this thread as the one that after reading about modes for years finally put the pieces together for me ...bells started going off...that was closely followed by GreenAsJade's post#10 with a video that really sunk in.

Sheesh....sorry so longwinded!

Wade

[gennation]

I popped in here the other day and noticed something...this is a "Mode" thread and it's full of nothing but Diatonic Theory and really nothing to do with Modal Music! Nobody AT ALL has brought up Modal Music...so I gave it a day or two to see if someone would actually explain "Modes" from some other aspect other than Diatonic Theory...like using music examples that actually use Modes...4 pages and it still hasn't happened...shame, shame.

 

A few of the Modes were around WAY before Diatonic Theory was ever thought of and had NOTHING to do with being "derived" from any "scale", let alone a Major scale. They were independent scales that created melodies and music within themselves...and had nothing to do with each other until someone tried to make "logic" out of "music" they created. This "logic" has been the crutch for people getting into Modal Music forever...the reason being...

 

Modes are rarely ever taught from a "music" stand point and are instead taught through "text", a "system" of scales and chords", etc...

 

You won't learn much about Modal Music, which is where Modal structures are applied, by weeding endlessly through Diatonic Theory and "learning all the scales" or "memorize scales", or "this scale is derived from this scale" etc...those are nothing but memorization drills.

 

The #1 way Modal Players get from the term "modes" to playing "modal" is by listening and learning some music where "Modal" is the base of the song.

 

The tunes listed below are HUGE vehicles which many Modal Players have used in the learning process, START LISTENING AND THEN START PLAYING..."memorize" as you go...these songs are written and played by Modal Giants.

 

NOBODY here memorized everything and THEN tried using it, we ALL learn chunks and put it to use, then learn more chunks, etc, etc... The "chunks" you have RIGHT NOW are the bits and pieces you know as well as all this Classic, VERY CLEAR, examples of playing Modally (listed below).

 

Check out these tunes for practical modal application (poly-modal examples):

 

So What by Miles Davis - Dorian

Maiden Voyage by Herbie Handcock - Dorian

Song for John by Stanley Clarke and Chick Corea - Lydian with tensions

Km-Pee-Du-Wee by Steve Vai - Lydian

Norwegian Wood the Beatles - Mixolydian

In Memory of Elizabeth Reed by The Allman Brothers - Dorian

Windows by Chick Corea - Lydian

Tears of Rain by Pat Metheny - Poly-Modal

More Ravi Shankar and Shakti than you can shake a stick at!

 

Go to youtube now, search and listen to all those tunes. Then pick three of them and spend the next month working through them (more like a lifetime really). I suggest you start at the top of the list as they get more complicated as you go through the list.

 

You will find more "modal application" from those three tunes you choose than you will from 3 years of Diatonic Theory and chord to scale memorization...period.

 

If you need help along the way, ask here, but by all means check out this modal music before you get all hung up on Modes...and use this music to instruct others when learning/teaching Modes.

 

As yuo work through these tunes remember, ALL the notes not in the scale are just as important as the notes that are in the scale...together they create tension and release.

 

Also remember, if all you do it learn to play "over the chord" you'll have a hard time learning to "play to play from chord to chord" or how to "play within the chord". "Playing over the chord" leads you to a static sound that has no life, it never goes anywhere, no tension and resolve, pretty much like the playing in ispytunes "Minor Mode" video...it's just a confined set of notes that never goes anywhere...it's stuck over the chord and never digs into the chord, never rubs against the chord, and might never bring anything out musically. No offense to ispytunes, I'm just pointing out the "play over the chord...go nowhere" idea.

 

Anybody can learn the "system" but it's up to you to turn it into "music". By all means, listen to and learn the music that's out there, that what everyone else has done to learn "Modes".

[mosiddiqi]

I did try saying that "referring to playing modes without referring to modal music is meaningless"..but It kind of got overlooked

 

Hello! by the way.

[wader2k]

........ NOBODY here memorized everything and THEN tried using it, we ALL learn chunks and put it to use, then learn more chunks, etc, etc... ......

 

 

Excellent post, I agree wholeheartedly. The above describes my learning process exactly!

[3shiftgtr]

Wader,

The problem with people who offer fact then opinion about application of said fact, is that sometimes, they don't know anything about educational psychology. They try to pry understanding into a person's brain, all well meaning, but with no understanding of how discovery thought in humans works. If they have studied educational psychology concepts, they might have a leg to stand on. But evidence here by some, suggests that they do not. So....

Music theory is an organizational concept. What you are having trouble with is the APPLICATION of the concepts. So all the tutalage and opinion humbly, meticulously, and correctly offered throughout this thread, ain't gonna do you a bit of good until you get in the lab. Music theory is a finite subject. It's application is infinite. You can argue til you are blue in the face about how you are supposed to understand this stuff, but the bottom line, is that it is YOUR learning experience. You've got to do it YOUR way. Follow the signs of the experts yes, but do your own bidding. (read: git ta work!)

The perspective of the artist on the use of color shifts from artist to artist. As is the perspective of the artist/student in the learning process of said colors. While blue will always be blue in relation to the other colors, how the artist learned to think about the color is THE RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ARTIST. 'Tricks' and 'suggestions' notwithstanding. To say "this is how you must THINK about this", shows no understanding of the learning process. The human brain must accept and process information based on it's own background, experience, and knowledge. A teacher's job is to present the information clearly with good cognitive organization. A good teacher can help personalize the information for you. A great teacher has a knack for understanding YOUR perspective, and feeding the knowledge to you in a way that you "get it". Your responsibility as a seeker of knowledge (student), is to accept it the info and process it with discipline and vigor. And in the case of the modes, learn their organizational concepts, and then begin the application process. Period. There is no "correct" way to think this through before you do it. There is only concepts and application.

So here's what I'm sayin': everybody has offered some great perspectives and some great and accurate information. And a little bit of friendly geeking on the finer points. And it is allgood. So generous, all of you. But the bottom line is that when it comes to understanding this stuff inside YOUR brain, no one here is right except for you. YOU'VE got to not wait to understand before getting started in the application process. Get in there and get your hands dirty! Start mucking around in this stuff and keeping your eyes and ears open. And you will develop your own way of processing the information. And along the way, you'll develop YOUR opinions on how one should THINK about these modes. THE LEARNING OF APPLICABLE CONCEPTS COMES FROM APPLICATION OF SAID CONCEPTS. Perspective is created in the process of learning. So dive into the application process, wader! Do it with tireless drive and joyful determination! Get that guit fiddle in your hands, and a book, cd or dvd on the subject and get after it!!!! :rawk:WOOT!!!!:rawk:

[mosiddiqi]

^^

 

Great post!

 

I'd have summarised it as "shut up and play yer guitar!!!"

[Jed]

3shiftgtr,

Nicely said! Much more direct and concise than any of our attempts to help / instill understanding. I could not agree more with this sentiment.

cheers,

[wader2k]

Shut up and play yer guitar indeed!


[YOUTUBE]-pbVcC9nsyI&feature=player_profilepage#t=193[/YOUTUBE]



posting this is probably a mistake because any demo of me playing most probably demonstrates only my complete lack of talent and facility on the instrument.....

but i have fun!

[gennation]

I did try saying that "referring to playing modes without referring to modal music is meaningless"..but It kind of got overlooked Hello! by the way.

How's it going Mo?

[gennation]

 

Excellent post, I agree wholeheartedly. The above describes my learning process exactly!

 

 

Have you listened to those tunes??? It does take time but always take what you know and keep learning how to mold it.

 

With guitarists many times the term Modes is enough to perk their attention. But most of the time the guitarist really only finds Diatonic information and rarely anything about real Modal playing or Modal Music.

 

Diatonic concepts are worth the years of study and most it will come together pretty quickly in a few weeks to a couple of months, but it's the memorization, basic application, and the ability to recognize it in music that takes time...as you take the next step past the basics.

 

Since most guitarists use the term Modes as a "higher plateau", directing them to real Modal Music, where the Mode concepts are the fundamental, either sparks their further interest or doesn't. But, the mere knowledge of what Modal Music really is is a great lesson in itself that not many people actually learn about while learn about "Modes".

[mosiddiqi]

How's it going Mo?

 

Good thanks, busy doing lots of crazy short songs as usual ..check out "skullbonnet" or "sausage boy" below..you might enjoy them.

 

I saw your GJ post..sounds like a busy time for you too.

[gennation]

Good thanks, busy doing lots of crazy short songs as usual ..check out "skullbonnet" or "sausage boy" below..you might enjoy them. I saw your GJ post..sounds like a busy time for you too.

Very cool stuff as usual. There's something about your music, the vibe and vocals that remind me of something but I can't put my finger in it yet. Meatloaf comes to mind but that only a small portion of it. It'll come to me.

I really like your stuff though, that nice 70's vibe but very original, almost a "campy show tune" style.

[mosiddiqi]

Thanks!

[jeremy_green]

The problem I see is that most guitarists think of modes as a fingering pattern "boxes" so young players seek out these boxes and memorize them as "This is Lydian" then when they see someone demonstrating a "lydian concept" on YouTube or live and it is a different fingering than the one they are using their heads explode in confusion.

 

This is compounded by magazines and interviews with famous players constantly referring to playing modes. Makes it seem like there is some magic scale that makes that player sound so good.

 

Modes arent shapes - they can be to a degree, but they are more than that. Once they make the disassociation (between fingerings and modes) then they are ready to progress. As I have said a few times modes are quite simple to grip on a piano.

[GreenAsJade]

But most of the time the guitarist really only finds Diatonic information and rarely anything about real Modal playing or Modal Music. .

 

 

But this is exactly true. Your sentence reads as if its "bad". Is that what you mean?

 

Lots of guitarists are interested in modes as a means to enhance their rock or jazz soloing. They aren't interested in terms of "I want to play Modal Music" or really care if it's "Real Modal Music" or not. They are interested from the perspective of "here is a new branch of theory which I'm told can give me new tools to make my solos richer - tell me more".

 

It's OK that the answer to this is "well, to understand this new branch of theory, you're going to have to know what 'modal music' is". But I think this doesn't change the motivation for learning it - which is richer solos more than "gee, Modal Music is cool I want to learn about that".

 

GaJ

[gennation]

 

But this is exactly true. Your sentence reads as if its "bad". Is that what you mean? Lots of guitarists are interested in modes as a means to enhance their rock or jazz soloing. They aren't interested in terms of "I want to play Modal Music" or really care if it's "Real Modal Music" or not. They are interested from the perspective of "here is a new branch of theory which I'm told can give me new tools to make my solos richer - tell me more". It's OK that the answer to this is "well, to understand this new branch of theory, you're going to have to know what 'modal music' is". But I think this doesn't change the motivation for learning it - which is richer solos more than "gee, Modal Music is cool I want to learn about that". GaJ

 

 

No, it's not bad at all. It's the fundamentals! And they learn Diatonic Theory but think it's "Modes".

 

Common senario...the whole time they are learning "this scale goes with this chord, then this scale goes with this chord" or "these two chords get the same scale because they are related to the same scale"...they end up learning NOTHING about Cadences, or "tension and release" for instance.

 

So you get this staticized sound of "scale to chord" or "being stuck over the chord".

 

So, while they get to understanding this static sound, they have a hard time playing anything musical...IOW, no tension and release.

 

Playing "over the chord" is a static sound...it's the sound of release, IOW there's no tension. So to play a series of chords playing one scale then jumping to the next, they are playing a "released" sound over each chord. Even in a "progression" the movement is Static to Static to Static, etc...not too much life.

 

For example...play

 

3/4 ||: C#m - - | C#m - - | C#m - - | C#m - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - :||

 

Scale-wise this is pretty much C# Natural Minor, and A Lydian if you will (one in the same pitch-wise), correct?

 

So, play either of those scales and weedly-dee through all the scale patterns you know for C# Nat Min as is will cover both chords. Then, go ahead and "think" C# Nat Min and A Lydian to "expand" the sound. Beside you targeting the chord tones a little better it doesn't really do a whole lot as far as "expanding" your playing goes, it's still stuck in a "released" sound. It's nothing but a static sound over one chord then a static sound over the next, right?

 

Let's throw some tension in here and make it come alive and lose the static sound...let's make it musically FEEL like we are actually finding our way from one chord then to the next...

 

I'll keep it based in Diatonicland...

 

3/4 ||: C#m - - | C#m - - | C#m - - | C#m/E - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7/B - - :||

 

Let's add a little more movement:

 

3/4 ||: C#m - - | C#m - - | C#m/E - - | C#m/F# - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7/G# - - | Amaj7/B - - :||

 

Now start playing off those notes that are creating the movement. an you'll start playing from chord to chord instead over one chord then over the next.

 

Let's start changing it up, leaving Diatonicland a bit...

 

3/4 ||: C#m - - | C#m - - | C#m - - | B7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | G#7 - - :||

 

Now the B7 is a walk down from C#->B->A adding some direction, but the G#7 is our first non-Diatonic chord introduced into the progression, but Cadence wise the G#7 takes us back to the C#m chord by way of a V7-Im Cadence...using Cadences in these progression is where the 'movement' happens that aren't in the scale you've been stuck in up to now.

 

Now that we have a Cadence in the picture, let's alter it...

 

3/4 ||: C#m - - | C#m - - | C#m - - | Cdim7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Adim7 - - :||

 

Remember, in Modal music you need to flush out the "I chords" and learn to know where to go to play over them...

 

But you can turn that around back to your Diatonic knowledge and target those "I chords" by way of V-I progressions, like this:

 

3/4 ||: C#m - - | C#m - - | C#m - - | Emaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | Amaj7 - - | G#m - - :||

 

This again is creating V-I Cadences for each new chord but keeping it ALL Diatonic Emaj7->Amaj7 and G#m->C#m are V-I Cadences within the C# Natural Minor/A Lydian Diatonic structure.

 

So, NOW we have turned this static "two chords, one scale" progression into all kind of great things by adding movement by realizing each of those chord might be created from the same scale, but there's no tension and release, only release, when playing only that one scale.

 

There's much more about this progression and creating movement for it here: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/chord-progressions-t40.html

[Virgman]

Dodgeman,

Good to see you!