What to do with Arppegios?

[Jeff1979]

How do you use them for soloing?

Ive got them down as a basic run up and down in all five CAGED positions but they dont sound musical, ive recorded backing tracks (C G Am F) and played along, not much is coming from it though, still sounds, well basic.....

 

Any pointers ?

[sfarfsky]

[Virgman]

Shredders play arpeggios at lightning speed in their solo. Look up Yngwie Malmsteen on Youtube. You've probably seen shredder run arpeggios like this.

 

Jazz players improvise with arpeggios in a melodic way using them to find chord tones. They don't just play them up and down. They combine the arpeggio notes with scale notes, chromatic notes, to create melodies.

 

Over your chord progression...

 

Improvise with the arpeggios over the chords. Use your ear. Come up with something that sounds good. Make up a lick using your arpeggios as a guide. Mix and match notes by ear. Come up with something you like.

 

Don't be a robot.

[mosiddiqi]

Virgman is right. As a rock player, most of my lines are based on pentatonic/diatonic scales and I think of arpeggios as my "safe" notes...and also as a "genre specific" tool, if I'm trying to fake my way through an Yngwie style thing or completely failing to fake my way through jazz

 

I get most use from them by superimposing different arps over certain chords. For example, in your progression, over the Am Chord...and Em arp or triad will sound pretty cool..even played straight up or down..the notes being E G B..giving you the 5th, 7th and 9th of the Amin...instant "jazzy" feel.

 

If I'm improvising in a rock/fusion kind of style then I use arps a lot..to get all those "hip" sounding extensions against the underlying chords or even more use over a single chord vamp...this type of thing:

 

http://www.box.net/shared/zfllpc72ot

 

which is just a Bbm jam and I used primarily the Dorian mode and the triads/arps in that tonality.

 

I hope this is useful.

[Jeff1979]

I get most use from them by superimposing different arps over certain chords. For example, in your progression, over the Am Chord...and Em arp or triad will sound pretty cool..even played straight up or down..the notes being E G B..giving you the 5th, 7th and 9th of the Amin...instant "jazzy" feel. .

 

 

Thats the kinda stuff, playing the upper extensions, ill give that a go, thanks

[Poparad]

Thats the kinda stuff, playing the upper extensions, ill give that a go, thanks

 

 

If you're having trouble effectively using basic arpeggios, I think getting into substitutions might be getting a bit ahead of yourself.

 

Most likely the problem lies in two things that are still going to be an issue even if you're trying more advanced uses of arpeggios:

 

1) Rhythm. Try being more creative and organized with the rhythms you're playing. Don't try to just playing the arpeggio as fast as you can (until you can hear rhythms that fast for an arpeggio), and don't just play the entire pattern up and down, as that will probably not have the right number of notes to line up with the music that you're playing over. If you're playing in eighth notes, you have 8 notes to work with per measure. Try coming up with an 8 note pattern for the arpeggio to play, and try repeating it with the other chords/arpeggio shapes. Also, don't just play only eighth notes all the time. Break it up with longer notes, just like you would in a melody.

 

2) Only playing arpeggios. You might be so fixed on the idea of playing arpeggios right now that you haven't quite gotten comfortable with including some scale fragments in between the arpeggios to link things together. Most melodies are a combination of scales and arpeggios, and are rarely just one or the other.

[FlatFive]

 

How do you use them for soloing? Ive got them down as a basic run up and down in all five CAGED positions but they dont sound musical, ive recorded backing tracks (C G Am F) and played along, not much is coming from it though, still sounds, well basic..... Any pointers ?

 

 

 

Could someone give me a good website the explains the arppegios of the "five CAGED positions"??

 

I understand arppegios, and I understand the CAGED system (I think)

[meganutt7]

As ususal, Poparad comes throughi nthe clutch with sagely advice...

I will add this.. If you want to learn how to use arpeggios in a way that is not so obvious and is one of the most gloabally appealing sounds, in my opinion, listen to guys like David Gilmour, from Pink Floyd.

You may THINK that all he is doing is playing a pentatonic scale, and ESSENTIALLY he is... BUT... If you analyze the notes he is playing from that pentatonic relative to the chord he is playing over, you will find that 90% of the time he lands on root, third or fifth... sometimes he ventures into higher extensions... But that is a big reason why so many people think of Gilmour as such a tasty player.. He always seems to land on the "right" note, which is almost always a chord tone... I think this bears a very thorough examination, alongside trying to sweep pick these triads really fast... Sweep picking is nice, and so are substitutions.. but using ONE note from an arpeggio over the appropriate chord is better than sloppily sweeping through them for whatever reason....

Start simple. Those are my two Cents.

[jeremy_green]

Some great advice here as usual. Let me add:

 

Try playing your arps along the length of the string as well. So grab the top two notes here, shift positions then carry on. That type of thing. Learn where the different forms of the same arp reside and practice working off the forms.

 

Once you are solid add some chromatic passing tones or leading tones. Try putting the arp (chord) tone on the beat and a chromatic note (leading or passing) on the "ands" of the beat. You end up with an "out,in,out,in" type of sound. You can also add major scale tones in place of the chromatic if you want a less "out" or jazzy sound.

 

Honestly getting one arp form in your hands, in all 12 keys, in all positions is a big job. If you only ever view it from top to bottom as a sweep type it would get mundane pretty fast. Set up a loop of 2 bars of a major chord, 2 bars of a minor chord (you pick em) then practice switching between major and minor arps all across the neck. They switch keys going around the circle of fifths and do it all over again.

 

Apply the same creativity to your physical routine as you would a composition. Ask yourself "how else can I do this same thing" if you continually do that most of these questions answer themselves.

 

Good luck bro!

[meganutt7]

As ususal, Poparad comes throughi nthe clutch with sagely advice... I will add this.. If you want to learn how to use arpeggios in a way that is not so obvious and is one of the most gloabally appealing sounds, in my opinion, listen to guys like David Gilmour, from Pink Floyd. You may THINK that all he is doing is playing a pentatonic scale, and ESSENTIALLY he is... BUT... If you analyze the notes he is playing from that pentatonic relative to the chord he is playing over, you will find that 90% of the time he lands on root, third or fifth... sometimes he ventures into higher extensions... But that is a big reason why so many people think of Gilmour as such a tasty player.. He always seems to land on the "right" note, which is almost always a chord tone... I think this bears a very thorough examination, alongside trying to sweep pick these triads really fast... Sweep picking is nice, and so are substitutions.. but using ONE note from an arpeggio over the appropriate chord is better than sloppily sweeping through them for whatever reason.... Start simple. Those are my two Cents.

 

 

Just a little addendum...

 

You said you had a backing track that you made that was: C-G-Am-F...

 

Let's take a look at the notes in those chords:

 

C = C,E,G; G = G,B,D; Am = A,C,E; F = F,A,C

 

Now, if you take the pentatonic I suggested (per our David Gilmour idea...) it would be Am Pentatonic. Here are the notes.... A,C,D,E,G. So the only chord that only has one note in this scale is the G chord, the others have two or all three in the scale... So what you COULD do, as this is (to me) the more PRACTICAL application of arpeggios (not SWEEPS, which is what many guitarists think of when you say the word arpeggio) is this:

 

Play "blues licks" but make sure that on the downbeat of every new chord, you land into a chord tone (even if you think of it as coming from the blues scale and not an arpeggio...) I guarantee you that if you tape yourself doing this, and slowly expanding to include the B note (over the G chord), you will be very pleased with how melodic and focused your melodies/leads will sound all of a sudden...

 

Also, what Jeremy suggested is something I do with my students alot... Limitation exercises... This teaches you things in a much more focused way... I have my kids solo over a progression on one string only. This forces you to see things more pianistically, in the sense that it's straight up and down... You can "see" the intervals better and if you want to make a wide intervallic leap, you have to work on your shifting too, which is good and important. Once you got it down on onje string, try a different one... This will really help alot.

 

THEN, try playing across ALL the strings, but only across 4 frets. say you're in the Am Pentatonic land, playing a 4 fret area with your index finger on the 5th fret is easy, as that is where the familiar root position pentatonic "box" shape falls.. but try playing the same notes (but only those available to you) with your index finger on the 6th fret, then 7th, 8th, 9th, etc.

 

Say you do that with the indexon the 6th fret... you then do not have ANY notes on the 5th fret, and you gain only 1 on the 9th fret, on the G string. This makes the notes available to you LESSENED, but this FORCES YOU to create melodies and lines with what you are given.

 

I assure you, the results will be to your benefit.

 

Have fun.

[3shiftgtr]

I remember in the eighties when all the sweeping stuff was the rage. I learned the technique and a few shapes and went "That's it?"

 

I thought "You bust your ass to learn this {censored} and all I get is what amounts to a measure or two of bdddddup and bdddddown." And don't forget the ubiquitous hammer-pull on the high E.

 

So I tried to approach it differently. I harmonized the arpeggios in a key...Em for example is Em, F#dim, Gmaj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, and Dmaj. I did it up and down the neck for 3 string arps 5 string arps (since they are easiest to make triplets with). And yes, using the hammer-pull thing. And instead of just sweeping, I tried to think melodically, just like Ol' Virg and the others have suggested. That led to a whole 'nuther basket I hadn't reached into yet.

 

I would jam over vamps, forcing myself to play melodically with NOTHING else but arps. No scale stuff, just arps. For an alternate picking Steve Morse nut, this was a brand new concept and way of looking at the fretboard. I felt like Daniel-son trying to catch the fly with the chop sticks.

 

It took some time, but pretty soon, the arps just began to flow into my solos.

 

Hope this helps....

[Jeff1979]

Cool, thanks for all the input, good to know i can get some quality help with my questions

Just to clarify though, i didnt mean sweeping, i cant do that stuff, i meant more of creating intresting solo's over intresting chords, other than playing my rock pentatonic/dorian licks over power chords.

[TrickyBoy]

I don't have time to read the above posts and I'm sure Danny, Jeremy and/or Pops, hit on this, but don't think you have to use arps linearly. An Amin7 arp is A - C - E - G. That doesn't mean you have to play A -C - E -G in succession over and over up the neck and then descend with G-E-C-A over and over. Creatively tons of melodies can be made with those 4 notes. Have fun and play with them. Get the feel of how it sounds to land on each of the 4 notes when playing over an Amin chord. Do it with other chords/arps.

Then you can start adding the other notes of the scale intelligently understanding their relationship to the notes in the chord.

I hope that makes sense.

[gennation]

There are specific arpeggios that are built from certain chords. Knowing these allows you to create line based on harmonies directly related to the chord.

 

These "certain chords" are maj7, m7, and dom7 chords. For instance use these arps for these types of chord:

 

Cmaj7 - use Cmaj7, Em7, and Am9

 

Dm7 - use Dm7, Fmaj7, and Am9

 

G7 - use G7, Bm7b5, and Dm7

 

This covers common arps used for any maj7, m7, and dom7 you run into. Until you get into altered sounds, you may never need any other arps for these chord type.

 

In your studies have realized yet that a maj13 chord contains all the notes of a Major Scale? Or that a m13 chord contains all the notes in a Dorian Scale? Or that a dom13 chord contains all the notes in Mixolydian Scale?

[girevik]

How do you use them for soloing? Ive got them down as a basic run up and down in all five CAGED positions but they dont sound musical, ive recorded backing tracks (C G Am F) and played along, not much is coming from it though, still sounds, well basic..... Any pointers ?

 

I'm not as qualified as Poparad, M. Dodge, 3shift, Danny, etc. so I'm not going to tell you what to do, only how I got around to using them.

 

Basically, I didn't use arpeggios until I started creating my own solo lines. What I mean by "creating a line" is actually thinking about the music I want to play and then playing it, not just noodling on the guitar with my fingers going wherever they "felt like going" or visualizing a pattern on the fretboard and noodling all over that pattern (I did both in the past ).

 

I didn't start creating my own solo lines, I mean, really creating them, until I'd absorbed enough vocabulary by listening to the solos of the great players that I liked and taking little ideas from them, like the famous "Honeysuckle Rose lick" that has been used a million times by just about every jazz soloist.

 

But in order to analyze these solos and steal little licks, I needed to be able to pick out the intervals, chords, etc. And that is where theory helped.

 

Anyway, the result to date of my ongoing education is that arpeggios do not exist as separate entities - they are organically interweaved into melodic ideas and such for me.

[meganutt7]

There are specific arpeggios that are built from certain chords. Knowing these allows you to create line based on harmonies directly related to the chord. These "certain chords" are maj7, m7, and dom7 chords. For instance use these arps for these types of chord: Cmaj7 - use Cmaj7, Em7, and Am9 Dm7 - use Dm7, Fmaj7, and Am9 G7 - use G7, Bm7b5, and Dm7 This covers common arps used for any maj7, m7, and dom7 you run into. Until you get into altered sounds, you may never need any other arps for these chord type. In your studies have realized yet that a maj13 chord contains all the notes of a Major Scale? Or that a m13 chord contains all the notes in a Dorian Scale? Or that a dom13 chord contains all the notes in Mixolydian Scale?

 

 

It seems to me that this is a bit much with respect to what the man needs/is capable of sinking his teeth into right now... Substitutions can get really confusing really fast if you don't have a firm grip on how to use the basic "root position" arpeggios yet... I would start as simply as possible and slowly evolve it. But what Mr. Dodge (Gennation) is saying is absolutely true... Another thing I like to do, that is related to what Mike suggested, is taking a CHORD SCALE, then playing the 7th chord arpeggios in what is called their Tertian Order.. This means, if you're in C major (Lydian), you play Cmaj7, Em7, Gmaj7, Bm7, D7, F#dim7, Am7, Cmaj7.

 

What happens is that every time you move a third up, you will notice the lowest note in the arp goes away and you add another note on top, which is a non-chord tone... That is a trick I have always ghotten alot of milage out of when trying to slowly morph a line to being as far from the most conjsonant notes, while still remaining in a given scale (not resorting to actual "outside" playing...)

 

Food for thought... But start simple. Triads and continuity. and limitation exercises.

[3shiftgtr]

Another thing I like to do, that is related to what Mike suggested, is taking a CHORD SCALE, then playing the 7th chord arpeggios in what is called their Tertian Order.. This means, if you're in C major (Lydian), you play Cmaj7, Em7, Gmaj7, Bm7, D7, F#dim7, Am7, Cmaj7. .

 

 

Cool. Why didn't I think of that? There is a million ways to do it, but when you are teaching, do you teach it on the same string sets, or by the closest shape?

[Jeff1979]

Cool stuff, thanks.

I was playing around with the first part of Autumn Leaves last night
Cm7 / F7 / BbMaj7 / EbMaj7 / Am7b5 / D7 / Gm

I found using Gminor pentatonic (G Bb C D F G) covered alot of ground, apart from the Eb A and F# notes in those chords, so i used the G pentatonic and the Bb Major scale combined.
Going back into the melody then a few bars of pentatonic, melody etc etc.

I kinda know whats going on, its just useing it all in a creative way i need to practice on.

[sfarfsky]

I remember in the eighties when all the sweeping stuff was the rage. I learned the technique and a few shapes and went "That's it?" I thought "You bust your ass to learn this {censored} and all I get is what amounts to a measure or two of bdddddup and bdddddown." And don't forget the ubiquitous hammer-pull on the high E. So I tried to approach it differently. I harmonized the arpeggios in a key...Em for example is Em, F#dim, Gmaj, Amin, Bmin, Cmaj, and Dmaj. I did it up and down the neck for 3 string arps 5 string arps (since they are easiest to make triplets with). And yes, using the hammer-pull thing. And instead of just sweeping, I tried to think melodically, just like Ol' Virg and the others have suggested. That led to a whole 'nuther basket I hadn't reached into yet. I would jam over vamps, forcing myself to play melodically with NOTHING else but arps. No scale stuff, just arps. For an alternate picking Steve Morse nut, this was a brand new concept and way of looking at the fretboard. I felt like Daniel-son trying to catch the fly with the chop sticks. It took some time, but pretty soon, the arps just began to flow into my solos. Hope this helps....

clips

[gennation]

Cool stuff, thanks. I was playing around with the first part of Autumn Leaves last night Cm7 / F7 / BbMaj7 / EbMaj7 / Am7b5 / D7 / Gm I found using Gminor pentatonic (G Bb C D F G) covered alot of ground, apart from the Eb A and F# notes in those chords, so i used the G pentatonic and the Bb Major scale combined. Going back into the melody then a few bars of pentatonic, melody etc etc. I kinda know whats going on, its just useing it all in a creative way i need to practice on.

 

 

 

That's the idea, you don't need to think full scales for each chord, you can use the most vocal scale and then just make changes to as you need to follow the music. Autumn Leaves is a prefect tune for applying this concept.

[gennation]

 

It seems to me that this is a bit much with respect to what the man needs/is capable of sinking his teeth into right now... Substitutions can get really confusing really fast if you don't have a firm grip on how to use the basic "root position" arpeggios yet... I would start as simply as possible and slowly evolve it. But what Mr. Dodge (Gennation) is saying is absolutely true... Another thing I like to do, that is related to what Mike suggested, is taking a CHORD SCALE, then playing the 7th chord arpeggios in what is called their Tertian Order.. This means, if you're in C major (Lydian), you play Cmaj7, Em7, Gmaj7, Bm7, D7, F#dim7, Am7, Cmaj7. What happens is that every time you move a third up, you will notice the lowest note in the arp goes away and you add another note on top, which is a non-chord tone... That is a trick I have always ghotten alot of milage out of when trying to slowly morph a line to being as far from the most conjsonant notes, while still remaining in a given scale (not resorting to actual "outside" playing...) Food for thought... But start simple. Triads and continuity. and limitation exercises.

 

 

What you posted is a common arp exercise (moving traids or 4-note chords in 3rds Diatonically, IOW stacking them in 3rds).

 

He's says he's learned his arps and wants to know what to do with them...

 

What I was explaining is the application of using arps (and less info too), BUT it's based directly on the chord and not just "another Diatonic list". And, with just this little idea you cover pretty much every arp related directly to the chord, making it a less academic or contrived sound...hence, more applicable musically.

 

It's pretty easy to grasps since it's shorter list than your and covers what your list does, but does it in a musical application.

 

Like I said, "Until you get into altered sounds, you may never need any other arps for these chord type."

[gennation]

OP, you might be interested in this little tutorial of how the the maj13 arpeggio is nothing but a Major scale played in thirds through two octaves: http://mikedodge.freeforums.org/using-maj13-arpeggio-in-place-of-a-linear-major-scale-t39.html

 

Like I said earlier, this is also true for m13=Dorian played in 3rds, and dom13=Mixolydian played in 3rds.

 

Someday I'll type up the the Super-Arpeggio lesson and you'll see how you can cover EVERY arp in a Key across six strings with only two forms!

[Jeff1979]

There are specific arpeggios that are built from certain chords. Knowing these allows you to create line based on harmonies directly related to the chord. These "certain chords" are maj7, m7, and dom7 chords. For instance use these arps for these types of chord: Cmaj7 - use Cmaj7, Em7, and Am9 Dm7 - use Dm7, Fmaj7, and Am9 G7 - use G7, Bm7b5, and Dm7 This covers common arps used for any maj7, m7, and dom7 you run into. Until you get into altered sounds, you may never need any other arps for these chord type. In your studies have realized yet that a maj13 chord contains all the notes of a Major Scale? Or that a m13 chord contains all the notes in a Dorian Scale? Or that a dom13 chord contains all the notes in Mixolydian Scale?

 

 

So if ive got say Amaj7 i could play a C#min7 Arppegio.

 

Would it not be eaiser (i might be missing a really big point here) that if all my chords are in the same key just to use the whole Major scale, instead of thinking this Arppegio goes here and this one here etc.

Would that not make all Arppegio practice redundent?? Of course i know its good to know were the Root, 3rd, 5th etc are but If i know what notes are in my chords and i know my major scale, that should take care of everything, right????

 

Am i missing something sat right in front of me ???

[Poparad]

So if ive got say Amaj7 i could play a C#min7 Arppegio. Would it not be eaiser (i might be missing a really big point here) that if all my chords are in the same key just to use the whole Major scale, instead of thinking this Arppegio goes here and this one here etc. Would that not make all Arppegio practice redundent?? Of course i know its good to know were the Root, 3rd, 5th etc are but If i know what notes are in my chords and i know my major scale, that should take care of everything, right???? Am i missing something sat right in front of me ???

 

 

Not every note in the major scale fits perfectly with every chord. That's why there's different chords within the scale and not just one big single chord. The reason why C#m7 works with Amaj7 is because C#m7 contains the 3rd, 5th, and 7th of Amaj7. If you picked a different chord from the same scale, it won't have as many of the primary notes of Amaj7 and won't fit as well. It's important to differentiate the different chords within the scale so what you play as a melody fits them the best. This is why I was stressing to just forget about substitutions for now, as you need to really be solid on just playing the original chord first before thinking about anything fancier than that.

[Jeff1979]

Also, what Jeremy suggested is something I do with my students alot... Limitation exercises... This teaches you things in a much more focused way... I have my kids solo over a progression on one string only. This forces you to see things more pianistically, in the sense that it's straight up and down... You can "see" the intervals better and if you want to make a wide intervallic leap, you have to work on your shifting too, which is good and important. Once you got it down on onje string, try a different one... This will really help alot. THEN, try playing across ALL the strings, but only across 4 frets. say you're in the Am Pentatonic land, playing a 4 fret area with your index finger on the 5th fret is easy, as that is where the familiar root position pentatonic "box" shape falls.. but try playing the same notes (but only those available to you) with your index finger on the 6th fret, then 7th, 8th, 9th, etc. .

 

 

Half my problem is trying to play over the whole neck, cool idea, ill try and keep a solo on say top 3 strings in a 4 fret range....