new Yamaha Motif XS workstation

[orangefunk]

Originally posted by assaf Ah, finally someone has the guts to complain. Sometimes musicians are the worst consumers in the world. They act more like junkies than intelligent, educated people..

Perhaps, I notice you said sometimes and sure there are people who just don't learn anything about music and just buy gear month in month out... because they're just bored silly.

but there are people who can play fairly well who like gear too... I consider myself as one of those people... I'm also a few months off getting a PhD and think the XS would be a wonderful present to myself for the past 5 years of hard work...

The 128 polyphony doesn't bother me as a player though if it was meant to be an all in one keyboard it might.. but does anyone still use MIDI these days for that? I record audio direct as I want to capture exactly what I played and how the sound was affected... MIDI doesn't always work for that... sometimes everytime you play back a sequence you get a slightly different performance because the sound might be cyclic.

Also you are wrong about the FX, they are different as they use the VCM stuff from their high end digital mixers. Its all about the articulation and arpeggiators...

[The Pro]

Originally posted by malfunkt so I bought an old K2000 And you know what, sure it can't match some of the specs, but it fill the Rompler void and it can STILL do things that the Motif can't!

And it's the right color.

[tonyrobbins]

Originally posted by Mike51 No physical modelling = no purchase. It's been fun watching synth companies shoot themselves in the feet these past couple years. You have to wonder if these companies are just nothing but Yes-Men these days. The Fusion was a failure, the Oasys was a debacle, and now Yamaha is stepping backwards. I can't wait for Roland's offerings this year.

Yea .. can wait lol.

Darn !!! no physical modelling Darn it !!i was really hopping for that .!

[malfunkt]

Originally posted by The Pro And it's the right color.

Actually, this is quite important... as right now, the K2000 is in my living room on its own, no monitors or anything, just for plugging into the Monomachine and using headphones (some sennheisers HD 555 - not critical but pleasant).

The Motif ES6 I had before was more imposing and looked like it was off the set of Battlestar Galactica... the '80s show - not the new one.

At first I thought the K2000 looked horrible, but now I realize it is somehat elegant being just plain black.

But instruments shouldn't be furniture!!

Anyhow, I do think the street prices will be a bit more reasonable. I hope they put some serious DSP power behind this thing, but don't kid yourself... there is some serious markup behind this stuff.

But there is also serious R&D efforts into creating perhaps the most sophisticated Rompling power ever!

The most important thing from a workstation is ease-of-use... quality of sounds??? As long as they are close enough you can do better in the engineering phase of your work. But might as well get it right first.

I am a bit of Yamaha fan, but don't own anything from them anymore.

I used to own an FS1R as well... did anyone really tap the full potential of this instrument? It was such a chore to program but honestly I got pretty fast using the front interface! It made sense once you melded with it... this seems like how it is with most Yamaha gear.

One peice of gear that I'm pretty interested in is the RS7000. Has anyone used the sequencer of this and the MotifES? How do they compare?

Was very impressed listening to some breaks compositions by Matt Dopamine.

Check out Halo remix here

wicked RS7000 sequencing and sampling

I read up on this guy, and unbelievably he used to only use an RS7000 with its 16-tracks and basic effects to make his tracks! He has analog gear that he resamples into it of course... but I'm really inspired to see someone use their gear like this!

oh and something totally unrelated but just stunning that I have to share!

The new Pentatonik album!!!

Neo-classical electronic music at its best with additional vocals by Kirsty Hawkshaw (anyone remember the voice to Opus III - 'It's a Fine Day'?).

Listen to 'Sapphire Turns to Dust'.

[stikygum]

See my other RS7000 thread Malfunkt.

[malfunkt]

Originally posted by stikygum See my other RS7000 thread Malfunkt.

 

 

Thanks. I think i found the one you mentioned...

 

I went through a bit of debacle last year..

 

After looking into the MC-909, RS7k, Fantoms, Motif ES I setled on the Motif.

 

I still ended up writing songs on the computer.

 

However, I do write strange electronic compositions on the Elektron instruments (primarily the Monomachine).

 

I think it all depends on what you want to create and how you want to use it.

 

word of caution for anyone with G.A.S. - careful what you sell to get that new shiny toy. I sold my Elektron instruments to get the Motif!!! I got them back thankfully!

[Jez]

At least this will drive ES prices down should I ever wish to get hold of another I was very happy with mine and regret having to sell it... but there we go.

I really want to be excited by the XS but it just doesn't quite seem different enough, and I can't honestly say I'm "surprised" by the spec. I've never been much of a polyphony whore but to cripple a workstation like that with a mere 128-note polyphony seems a bit "WTF" to me. Why not develop a 512-voice chip, stick it in everything, and be done with it?

It'll be nice to hear some good demos, and of course to see Bert's vid... I have no doubt in my mind that it'll sound THE TITS, regardless of it's few supposed shortcomings.

[Tony Scharf]

everyone lamenting about the polyphony on the motif as being so terrible and inadequate is just...funny to me.

I got a long for years with the sum total polyphony of my whole studio being under 128 notes. currently I only have one instrument that makes it that high.

something i would like any of you to actually try, is to find a way to USE all 128 notes at ONCE in a track.

Now, I know if your trying to recreate an orchestral score in exacting excruciating detail, then you may run into an issue. but I would counter that if your doing that, you probably have the budget for more than one synthesizer. Also, with digital multitracks being the NORM and not the exception, if you did run into a limit with poly...you could always track it.

and yes, I realize that stacking notes kills polyphony. so with 8 layers, you actually only have 16 voices. Id make a bet that in the real world, a patch that had 16 layers going all at once is probably not going to be something your going to be playing a 16 note chord with.

Now I know someone is going to pop up and say that they are limited by this every day..its a tragedy that modern technology should be limited by this arbitrary value. Id call BS on that one. I want to HEAR you using 128 notes and getting noticible note steeling without you being a smartass and just doing it on purpose.

so yeah..maybe a few people do have a problem with 128 note poly, and it is a real problem for them. I would bet that its a very small minority of the people who actually *use* synthesizers every day instead of just those who talk about them and play arm chair quarterback over spec sheets and press releases.

people will always find a reason to complain, and almost never a reason to praise. Sad.

[Diametro]

It's easy to max out my X's 128 note polyphony ...

It's also easy to keep it under control ...

I think the point the poo-poo people are trying to make is that maybe Yamaha should have tried a little harder in that regard (it's not like the XS is a flaming bargain) ...

I doubt it would be a deal-breaker if I was looking for a new workstation, but I don't think anybody is going to be selling their Fantom X's or Extremes to get with the XS ...

The changes Yamaha has made are merely keeping the Motif in the game ...

[MartinHines]

Originally posted by Diametro It's easy to max out my X's 128 note polyphony ... It's also easy to keep it under control ... I think the point the poo-poo people are trying to make is that maybe Yamaha should have tried a little harder in that regard ...

 

 

With the Motif ES, Yamaha stated that they considered introducing a bigger screen, but nixed the idea in favor of spending that "extra money" somewhere else AND maintaining a Motif ES price point similar to the original Motif price.

 

I would assume the "answer" about not increasing the Motif XS polyphony past the current 128 voices is COST. I am positive that Yamaha could have increased polyphony to 256 if they wanted to (just double the number of procssing chips inside), but this would have added to the cost, and therefore the end price paid by the customer.

 

As a side note, I own a Kurzweil PC2R (Rack) with the optional XP-1 Polyphony Expansion module, which doubles the polyphony from 64 to 128 voices. This "module" looks nearly identical to the main PC2R circuit board, and when the module is installed, the operating system sends alternating notes to both boards (i.e. the first note to the original board, the second note to the option board, etc.). I am sure the Motif wouldn't work exactly like this, but it demonstrates the idea that extra polyphony adds to the cost of the product.

 

I have probably said this 50 times, but the "big three" have an excellent record of building products to achieve specific price points. Whenever you build to a specific price point whether that is $1,000 or $10,000, you are going to have to make hard choices about the different features in a particular product.

 

Yamaha is an excellent example for wide-ranging keyboard price points. Currently you can walk into your local BestBuy or WalMart and buy a $60 Yamaha arranger keyboard, or now place an order for a new Motif XS8 for $4,000. I assume there are HUGE production cost differences between these two products.

[Diametro]

Originally posted by MartinHines I assume there are HUGE production cost differences between these two products.

 

 

Really? I think it might not be as disparate as their MSRPs would indicate.

 

Do you think the profit margin on their consumer stuff is nearly as sweet as the pro gear? ... It's just like luxury cars or expensive trucks compared with more reasonably priced transportation.

 

The reason there are different price points is because that is what Yamaha thinks the market will bear ... If Yamaha could sell a Motif at Best Buy, they probably would ... (Imagine how many features Yamaha could include in its budget boards that it doesn't simply because they are considered "pro" features.)

 

Personally, I've always thought the Motif was overpriced (not radically, though) and appeals primarily to the audience that HAS TO play a Motif for whatever reason (primarily, IMO, gigging musicians who feel comfortable with that board) ...

 

Still, I wouldn't exactly cry if I had to use one of these things ...

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by MartinHines I would assume the "answer" about not increasing the Motif XS polyphony past the current 128 voices is COST.

But but but but but...! Yamaha should give us 256 voices anyway and VA synthesis and FM synthesis, and physical modeling, and sixteen motorized faders, and analog filter section, and a huge color touch screen and ADAT lightpipe out and wordclock in and VST plugin support and realtime disk streaming and 200GB of samples and free in-house training AND a full lifetime replacement guarantee!

How out of touch can one manufacturer be? It's completely ASININE that a company as established as Yamaha can't give us something like the above for around $1200. This plainly shows they're a greedy money-grubbing monolith more interested in raping babies and clubbing baby seals than meeting the needs of poor, whiny, clueless, socialist musicians.

[Don Solaris]

and a VEGAS mode !

[mildbill]

Originally posted by The Audacity Works But but but but but...! Yamaha should give us 256 voices anyway and VA synthesis and FM synthesis, and physical modeling, and sixteen motorized faders, and analog filter section, and a huge color touch screen and ADAT lightpipe out and wordclock in and VST plugin support and realtime disk streaming and 200GB of samples and free in-house training AND a full lifetime replacement guarantee! How out of touch can one manufacturer be? It's completely ASININE that a company as established as Yamaha can't give us something like the above for around $1200. This plainly shows they're a greedy money-grubbing monolith more interested in raping babies and clubbing baby seals than meeting the needs of poor, whiny, clueless, socialist musicians.

I don't know, man. $1,200 seems pretty high for that.

[Tony Scharf]

Originally posted by mildbill I don't know, man. $1,200 seems pretty high for that.

yeah, if I am going to take that garbage, they should pay ME to play it!

[MartinHines]

Originally posted by Diametro Really? I think it might not be as disparate as their MSRPs would indicate. Do you think the profit margin on their consumer stuff is nearly as sweet as the pro gear? ... It's just like luxury cars or expensive trucks compared with more reasonably priced transportation.

 

 

Given we are talking about retail prices versus manufacturing costs, I am sure there is less of a difference in manufacturing cost between a retail $60 arranger and a retail $4,000 Motif XS.

 

I would also assume the per unit profit margin on the XS would be alot higher (this would be a normal economic assumption given their relative markets and the relative production volumes -- i.e. I am sure Yamaha cranks out a significantly higher number of cheap arranger keyboards than they will ever produce Motif XS's).

 

However, that does not negate my points that:

-- there is a strong relationship between retail cost and manufacturing cost (i.e. I am positive the Motif XS costs a lot more to make than the cheap arranger keyboard)

-- manufacturers like Yamaha DO build products to achieve specific price points, which means they make tough desicions about what potential features to keep and ones to discard.

 

 

Originally posted by Diametro The reason there are different price points is because that is what Yamaha thinks the market will bear

 

 

The price consumers are willing to pay (demand) does have some bearing, but I am sure there are real, significant "cost of what is inside" differences between a $4,000 Motif XS8 and a $60 keyboard. It's not like both products cost Yamaha only $50 to make and they make $10 profit on one, while $3,950 profit on the other.

 

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by MartinHines It's not like both products cost Yamaha only $50 to make and they make $10 profit on one, while $3,500 profit on the other.

I don't think anyone's saying that, but there certainly is this whole "The big three are screwing us over" mentality, which is pretty disheartening. Everyone wants their specific needs filled, and if 99.99% of everyone else is blissfully happy with Product X, the remaining .01% will vehemently insist (with foaming mouths, fire, and brimstone) that Product X's manufacturer "is hopelessly clueless". Such is internet forum logic.

 

I design product, and spend waaayyy too much time preemptively figuring out how to placate stupifyingly demanding naysayers.

[Mike51]

Originally posted by The Audacity Works But but but but but...! Yamaha should give us 256 voices anyway and VA synthesis and FM synthesis, and physical modeling, and sixteen motorized faders, and analog filter section, and a huge color touch screen and ADAT lightpipe out and wordclock in and VST plugin support and realtime disk streaming and 200GB of samples and free in-house training AND a full lifetime replacement guarantee! How out of touch can one manufacturer be? It's completely ASININE that a company as established as Yamaha can't give us something like the above for around $1200. This plainly shows they're a greedy money-grubbing monolith more interested in raping babies and clubbing baby seals than meeting the needs of poor, whiny, clueless, socialist musicians.

The problem is that these companies are recycling past technologies and not passing the savings onto the consumer. It's not like the car analogy where they are actually putting HUGE r&d into redesigns. Were talking about the same mechanical parts, the same synth technology, the same cpu's, etc.

It's 2007, not 1975. And the innovation in the workstation market just isn't there. Anyone can build their own synth these days, and slap a nice controller onto it.

We get new synth colors, a few new rompler samples (if we're lucky), the same synth engine (or slightly altered if we are lucky).

It's the same thing over and over. There's no point in buying a new workstation these days. In five years, just turn off the internal effects engine and run your workstation through a higher quality unit and it will sound better than the "upgrade" model workstation.

For example, the Oasys even uses Linux and a standard CPU. Where's the R and D in that to charge such a high price? And if you are telling me, "well the software had to be engineered"....

If that's the case, why isn't Cubase 5000$? Or Reaktor 5?

Value is seeping out of the workstation market. VA makers seem to be adjusting to the software reality. Workstation makers don't seem to be.

[Diametro]

To defend my car industry analogy (and the workstation market to a degree) ... you need to look at the size of the overall markets ... one is much much bigger than the other and can afford to pour money into R&D (and needs to in oder to be competitive as there are many car companies in the world - but that's changing, too... )

The Synth Big Three are in lockstep and that's exactly the reason the XS is what it is.

One could argue we're lucky to have workstations at all these days (if you're a fan of workstations, that is).

[mildbill]

Originally posted by The Audacity Works .... I design product, and spend waaayyy too much time preemptively figuring out how to placate stupifyingly demanding naysayers.

 

 

 

 

so how long do you have to wait before you can leak what roland's got coming for namm?

[mildbill]

take your $60 keyboard. (which is still making a small profit),

give it a tad bit better set of keys, add a few extra knobs/sliders, give it a bit more sample rom, and slap on a couple more bucks for better converters,

and you've got a workstation worth $3,940 more?

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by Mike51 Value is seeping out of the workstation market. VA makers seem to be adjusting to the software reality. Workstation makers don't seem to be.

You and I are both Reaktor users, and the type of people who could build the most basic oscillator in Reaktor are maybe 1% of the ROMpler market. Am I saying workstations couldn't use a bunch of high-end features? Of course not; I'm simply stating that studies are done, market research is analyzed, and we get what we get because of the result, not in spite of it.

 

MI manufacturers aren't in it to make Mike51 or Audacity Works happy. They're in it to make money (or in the case of Yamaha, Mackie, and others, keep stockholders happy). If market research tells them that ROMplers with features x, y, and z at a pricepoint of q will make them the most money, that's exactly what they'll build.

 

Look at the V-Synth. Freaking brilliant. And it hasn't performed nearly as well as the Fantom, because the masses don't care about what you and I care about. The masses don't care about VA, or FM, or analog, or crazy-ass sample manipulation, or disk streaming. They care about color screens, thousands of instantly accessible (i.e. pedestrian) sounds, and a slick new-agey demo drenched in reverb. And they're perfectly willing to pay $2000 for the privilege.

 

So Yamaha, Korg, and Roland will continue to give the masses color screens, 2000 pedestrian sounds, and a slick new-agey demo drenched in reverb.

 

In other words, we are not the ROMpler market, nor will we ever be. The difference is that I'm thankful for that, and others here seem to be pissed off about it.

 

The other thing that irks me are all the people who are obviously not engineers or even software developers, yet insist they know how much it *should* cost to research, conceive, design, program, manage, build, test, manufacture, insure, test, distribute, market, and support hardware synthesizers across the entire globe. To be frank, they're absolutely, positively clueless.

 

 

 

 

Of course the music industry, film industry, advertising industry, and political figureheads placate us even less and insult us WAY more, so maybe I'm just comparison shopping.

[mildbill]

Originally posted by Mike51 ....If that's the case, why isn't Cubase 5000$? Or Reaktor 5? ....

 

 

 

 

 

With software, they get you in the long run, thru update costs.

 

My original $325 cost for Cubase is up around to about $1,300 now.

(over quite a few years and updates).

 

Also, the top of line program that i bought way back when, goes for about $799 now to start.

 

 

If you live long enough, and get every update, they'll get that 5,000 out of you eventually (assuming the company stays in business).

[The Audacity Works]

Originally posted by mildbill so how long do you have to wait before you can leak what roland's got coming for namm?

January 18th, around 10AM PST.

[mildbill]

Originally posted by The Audacity Works January 18th, around 10AM PST.