new Yamaha Motif XS workstation

[sprech_stimme]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 Most of the Oasys preload sample memory is from the piano sounds

 

 

The OASYS preload samples include about 100 MB of pianos (which most people I talk to think are excellent - I can offer unsupported "most people" opinions just as well as the other guy). That leaves 500 MB without the new piano, compared to 32 MB on the original, or 160 MB on the Extreme.

 

The big EXs2 piano, at 500 MB, isn't part of the standard preload.

 

 

Originally posted by Mike51 Which parts? If you buy CPU's in bulk, you get them much cheaper.

 

 

If you buy anything in bulk, you can get them cheaper. But, if you're only buying a few thousand of something (like a synth company), you don't get the same discounts as if you're buying millions of them (like a computer company).

 

The standard markup used by niche-market companies, like synthesizer manufacturers, has nothing to do with buying in bulk, since the markup applies regardless of the initial price paid for the part. Instead, it relates to the cost of making a small run of product, with sales spread out over years instead of months.

 

 

Originally posted by Mike51 buttons/knobs/sliders are the same,

 

 

The main sliders are completely different, actually - just look at them; bigger, mixer-style. The value slider looks the same. Buttons may or may not be the same; I couldn't care less. LEDs on all the knobs and sliders are different. I don't understand how any of this could possibly matter; it's not like what I want in a synth is new buttons. These things are typically bought from standard sources anyway.

 

 

Originally posted by Mike51 sequencer is the same, keybed is the same, sampling rate is the same, etc etc.

 

 

Do you mean to say that the sequencer and sampling rate are physical parts?

 

But, since you bring it up...

 

Most of the internals, software and hardware, are completely different. That's pretty clear from both the specs, and from listening to the two instruments side-by-side. The sample playback oscillators are different (much cleaner and brighter). The filters are different (two multimode resonant filters per voice). The envelopes are different (faster/smoother, with curvature). The lfos are different (faster/smoother). And all of the other synths (analog, legacy, organ, plucked string modeller) are totally different from the MOSS stuff. Etc.

[NuSkoolTone]

Can you fags stop bickering about the OA$Y$ and development costs and get back on topic please?

 

That stuff is SO 2005 girlfriend.....

[mildbill]

Mike - here's another view:

 

Some people insist on getting 'the best'.

 

They may not have the knowledge to understand what constitutes 'the best', but they have to have some criteria, right?

 

The most common modern criteria is price.

 

In other words, most people think the most expensive product is the best product.

 

It's not about 'value', or 'bang for the buck', or 'unique technology at a reasonable price'.

It's more about status, and ego, and "I can afford it and {censored} you if you can't" type thing.

 

It's easy to see this in every area, from automobiles, to houses, to coffee. People think if it costs more, it must be better.

Never mind, does it meet your real needs, or does it have specific features that you've come to rely on, or does this do the same thing for less.

 

OK that's a really cynical outlook, and probably only partly true, and I'm not slamming any product, but psychological factors can't be denied.

 

Modern marketing techniques are almost powerful enough to make some people believe a {censored} sandwich is the best sandwich available.

 

 

 

[brzilian]

Originally posted by mildbill Modern marketing techniques are almost powerful enough to make some people believe a {censored} sandwich is the best sandwich available.

 

Isn't that what McDonald's is doing?

 

[MartinHines]

 

Originally posted by NuSkoolTone Can you fags stop bickering about the OA$Y$ and development costs and get back on topic please?

 

 

These posts are not about the OASYS; Mike is just using the OASYS as an example because he thinks he knows how much it costs to create it (he doesn't of course).

 

Mike's true feelings are revealed here:

 

Originally posted byMike51 [in response to a statement about Yamaha workstation prices] People will still buy their price gouged workstations.

 

Mike and I simply have a difference of opinion:

-- I think the big three workstation prices are fair, given the MI industry cost structure (ignoring whether you think the products are worth that much)

-- Mike thinks they are charging excessively high prices.

[MartinHines]

 

Originally posted by mildbill Some people insist on getting 'the best'. It's not about 'value', or 'bang for the buck', or 'unique technology at a reasonable price'.

 

 

With most high-end products (forget about keyboards for a moment), "the best" and "the best VALUE" are completely different.

 

Take 4-door passenger cars as an example.

 

"The BEST" 4-door passenger car:

-- Maybach (super premium brand by DaimlerChrysler)

http://www.maybachusa.com/

 

"The BEST VALUE" 4-door passenger car:

-- Toyota Corolla

http://www.toyota.com/corolla/ (warning -- rap music playing)

 

At least to me, the word "value" always includes some type of comparison of price to worth. "The best" removes price from the equation.

 

Yes, sometimes "the best" isn't always the "most expensive", but as a general rule there is some type of relationship between price and quality.

[mildbill]

Originally posted by brzilian Isn't that what McDonald's is doing?

 

 

 

I'm not at liberty to comment on that.

[mildbill]

MartinHines: I believe you have quoted me 'out of context'.

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by The Audacity Works Wrong. The Triton became huge in the hip hop world because it looked cool, had a touch screen, and because certain famous producers used it. A large majority of Triton (and Fantom and Motif) users never once touch the sampling engine, and almost none of them care about the MOSS board

[girevik]

Originally posted by brzilian Isn't that what McDonald's is doing?

 

Back in the day when I was working at a McDonald's, I had a customer say "Give me the best sandwich".

 

I ask "Do you want a Big Mac? Or a Quarter Pounder? A McBLT? Or another sandwich?"

 

His reply: "Just give me the best"

 

I sold him the most expensive burger on the menu.

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by MartinHines With most high-end products (forget about keyboards for a moment), "the best" and "the best VALUE" are completely different. Take 4-door passenger cars as an example. "The BEST" 4-door passenger car: -- Maybach (super premium brand by DaimlerChrysler) http://www.maybachusa.com/ "The BEST VALUE" 4-door passenger car: -- Toyota Corolla http://www.toyota.com/corolla/ (warning -- rap music playing) At least to me, the word "value" always includes some type of comparison of price to worth. "The best" removes price from the equation. Yes, sometimes "the best" isn't always the "most expensive", but as a general rule there is some type of relationship between price and quality.

 

 

 

The Maybach doesn't use Toyota Corolla parts. The Oasys recycles alot from the Triton.

 

(and on an off topic note, the Corolla will still be cruising the roads long after the Chrysler is in a junkyard).

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by The Audacity Works Whatever it takes to get through to Mike.

 

 

Good luck. I've had smoking hot Ukraine women lose that battle, lol.

[mildbill]

Originally posted by girevik Back in the day when I was working at a McDonald's, I had a customer say "Give me the best sandwich". I ask "Do you want a Big Mac? Or a Quarter Pounder? A McBLT? Or another sandwich?" His reply: "Just give me the best" I sold him the most expensive burger on the menu.

 

 

 

 

Good work. I'm sure he walked away a proud, self-satisfied man.

[sprech_stimme]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 The Maybach doesn't use Toyota Corolla parts. The Oasys recycles alot from the Triton.

 

 

Sure, just like the Maybach presumably uses the same general sort of nuts and bolts as the Corolla. Both also have steering wheels, four wheels, seats, etc.

 

As discussed earlier, most of the OASYS is both new and superior, in comparison to the Triton. This includes almost every aspect of the sample playback synth, including oscillators, filters, envelopes, lfos, modulation capabilities, etc. You've mentioned samples; these are mostly new, in terms of MB at least, although it keeps some favorites from the Triton, just like the Triton kept some from the Trinity, which kept some from the M1 for that matter. And, there's really no comparison between the Triton's MOSS and the OASYS analog, organ, physical modeling, and vintage analog synths.

 

Just about the only thing that isn't much different from the Triton is the MIDI part of the sequencer, although there are a few changes there as well - and of course there are the sixteen audio tracks. Personally, I don't really care about workstation sequencers - I'm very happy to use my computer for that.

[MartinHines]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 The Maybach doesn't use Toyota Corolla parts.

 

 

This is irrelevant to my point, which was, in the marketplace for ANYTHING, there is a difference between "the Best" and "the Best Value".

 

The car example I gave illustrates this clearly.

 

 

 

P.S. -- The Maybach does use Mercedes Benz parts, and lots of them (on a sheer number of parts basis). A modern automobile has thousands of parts on it.

[Diametro]

BTW, speculation is that Mercedes could be phasing out Maybach since sales have been much lower than promised.

 

Mercedes' super-ritzy four-door Ocean Drive convertible concept -- which will do doubt sell for Maybach-like prices -- is going to debut at the upcoming Detroit auto show.

 

The fact is ... Maybach sucks!

 

http://www.autoweek.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061227/FREE/61226004/1024/LATESTNEWS

[Mike51]

 

Originally posted by sprech_stimme Sure, just like the Maybach presumably uses the same general sort of nuts and bolts as the Corolla. Both also have steering wheels, four wheels, seats, etc.

 

 

That's only relevant in that all synths make noises.

 

 

 

As discussed earlier, most of the OASYS is both new and superior, in comparison to the Triton. This includes almost every aspect of the sample playback synth, including oscillators, filters, envelopes, lfos, modulation capabilities, etc. You've mentioned samples; these are mostly new, in terms of MB at least, although it keeps some favorites from the Triton, just like the Triton kept some from the Trinity, which kept some from the M1 for that matter. And, there's really no comparison between the Triton's MOSS and the OASYS analog, organ, physical modeling, and vintage analog synths.

 

 

I have heard some complaints about Oasys VA. It's not perfect by any means - and it still doesn't do the thimgs the MOSS does.

Much of the Oasys used Triton parts, the Triton sequencer, same sampling rate, etc.

 

 

 

Just about the only thing that isn't much different from the Triton is the MIDI part of the sequencer, although there are a few changes there as well - and of course there are the sixteen audio tracks. Personally, I don't really care about workstation sequencers - I'm very happy to use my computer for that.

 

 

 

See, that's the problem. The "all in one" hype is heavily promoted, yet the sequencer is the same as the Triton's. I agree computer audio/midi is superior, but for the money of the Oasys, why can't there be a competent seq/audio app?

[mildbill]

*

[orangefunk]

Why does every thread end up talking about the OASYS?

 

Its really disappointing to read the same conversations over and over and over again.

 

I think we should have a facilities to prune threads of this {censored}e or at least pay for Mike and Martin to find a room and get down to it...

 

 

 

[Tony Scharf]

Originally posted by orangefunk Why does every thread end up talking about the OASYS? Its really disappointing to read the same conversations over and over and over again. I think we should have a facilities to prune threads of this {censored}e or at least pay for Mike and Martin to find a room and get down to it...

 

+1000000000

[sprech_stimme]

 

Originally posted by Mike51 That's only relevant in that all synths make noises.

 

 

It's relevant in that most of the parts you've mentioned that the OASYS shares with the Triton are trivial, such as the buttons and knobs, as opposed to things central to the sound, such as the synth and effects algorithms, the A/D and D/A, etc.

 

There's also the keyboard action, which in OASYS is apparently the best-available Yamaha action; I'm not sure whether or not all of the various Tritons use these as well, but if so, it would be hard to go up from there, so there would be no point to change it.

 

 

Originally posted by Mike51 I have heard some complaints about Oasys VA. It's not perfect by any means - and it still doesn't do the thimgs the MOSS does.

 

 

Really? You were saying nice things about the VA before. Myself, I've heard nothing but glowing things about the AL1. The oscillators are great, the filters have that neat multi-filter thingy, the modulation is robust, etc. I wouldn't say it was perfect, of course, since it's something that exists in the real world, and the last time I checked perfection just wasn't on the menu here.

 

In re MOSS - what is it, exactly, that MOSS does in terms of VA that the OASYS AL1 and legacy synths do not? I don't think there's much if anything...but there's a ton of stuff that the OASYS does that MOSS does not (better oscillators, multi filter, different oscillator types in the AL1, step sequencing, audio inputs, faster and more complex envelopes and lfos, modular patchbay and different oscillators/filters in the ms20, different filter in the polysix etc.).

 

 

Originally posted by Mike51 Much of the Oasys used Triton parts, the Triton sequencer, same sampling rate, etc.

 

 

We may be going in circles here; wasn't this what I was responding to? So far, we've established that most of the OASYS hardware is different from the Triton, and that the sequencer adds sixteen audio tracks. I'm not sure that having the "same" 48kHz sampling rate is a matter of sharing things with the Triton; if so, it's the "same" as a whole lot of other gear as well. :-)

 

 

Originally posted by Mike51 See, that's the problem. The "all in one" hype is heavily promoted, yet the sequencer is the same as the Triton's. I agree computer audio/midi is superior, but for the money of the Oasys, why can't there be a competent seq/audio app?

 

 

So, is your main complaint that the MIDI portion of the sequencer hasn't evolved much? I could say the same for Cubase, Logic, and Digital Performer in their more recent updates; everyone's concentrating on audio and synths. It seems like the OASYS has the same relationship to the Triton in that respect.

 

My general impression is that while a few people (such as yourself) really like workstations as all-in-one environments, many others simply use them as synths in a larger studio. That's my personal application, so the sequencer doesn't matter so much to me. YMMV.

[NuSkoolTone]

 

Originally posted by MartinHines These posts are not about the OASYS; Mike is just using the OASYS as an example because he thinks he knows how much it costs to create it (he doesn't of course). Mike's true feelings are revealed here: Mike and I simply have a difference of opinion: -- I think the big three workstation prices are fair, given the MI industry cost structure (ignoring whether you think the products are worth that much) -- Mike thinks they are charging excessively high prices.

 

 

Sorry man, but I side with Mike on this one. When keyboards routinely start at $2k and get "Blown out" at $500 (And NO, I'm not talking about the Fusion) it says a lot about the "Costs" of the MI industry.

 

I do computers and software for a living, so I've got a clue. The R&D for the O, yup significant no doubt. Did they port a LOT of basic logic from the Trition? Yup, no doubt. Does the hardware(Knobs, buttons, etc..) look AWFULLY familiar? Sure do! Has the price for a 2.8 ghz P4/Aopen MB come down since 2005? Almost certainly. Has the OA$Y$? NO.

 

I'm not pretending to know what the R&D cost to build it, or what the per Unit cost is now. However they didn't develop ALL of this tech in the last couple years. It's a culmination of like 15 years+. They just coded it into linux.

So YES, I agree with MIKE the OA$Y$ is OVERPRICED.. STILL! Even more so now considering 2 years have almost gone by, and some of the off the shelf price reductions are not reflected. Perhaps they bought them in bulk at the time of release? No matter.....

 

THAT said, can we PLEASE get back to the Topic at hand and stop talking about last year's (And the year before) news and "Production costs"?

 

Yamaha raised the price $500, or it's the same as when the Motif ES came out (Anyone remember?) For new sounds (From the TYROS2 mainly, so WHERE is the R&D?, with basically the SAME sequencer duct taped on a pretty new interface. So yeah, they upped the price because unless Korg or Roland come out with something compelling at the same price or cheaper then that segment of the market is cornered....

 

Besides, you can ALWAYS lower your price. RARELY can you bring it up. Always better to start high from a business perspective and see how things sell. NEVER assume your projected market can't afford it or won't cough it up!

 

Now where were we...

[swardle]

Leave it to the Solaris clan to ruin another thread. Why won't the moderators do something about these thugs?

 

Yamaha is a wonderful company who create beautiful instruments for the right kind of people for the right reasons. But now days, you got these evil, decadent, Satan Worshippers who can't play good music and just want to sit around and make synth noise all day. How dare them!!

 

So for you Devil People out there. You better know that when you come onto a Motif thread and litter it with your disgusting filth, you are on sacred ground. May a big juicy lightening bolt destroy every last little knob on your demonic toy!!

[MartinHines]

 

Originally posted by NuSkoolTone Sorry man, but I side with Mike on this one. When keyboards routinely start at $2k and get "Blown out" at $500 (And NO, I'm not talking about the Fusion) it says a lot about the "Costs" of the MI industry.

 

 

Different industries have different cost structures (including costs all the way from design, through manfacturing, sales and distribution, and finally support).

 

The PC industry is an example of "high volume/low markup" industry. The volumes of products produced are so big, and the market is so big, each piece in the distribution chain settles for low profit per item in exchange for high volume. Put another way, the ratio of the retail price to the manufacturing cost is relatively low.

 

To contrast, the MI hardware industry is very small. The volumes of products produced are small, but you still have to support the same functions as in a larger industry (i.e. you still have manufacturers selling to Distributors who sell to Retailers who sell to customers). The MI hardware industry can be considered a "low volume/high markup" industry. This means the ratio of the retail price to the manufacturing cost is relatively high.

 

In your example of a $2,000 retail keyboard, the per unit manufacturing cost may be as low as 1/3 or $ 667 (I really don't know). Someone may look at that and say "someone is making a profit of $1,300, that's terrible". If they said that, they would be wrong. When you have a certain amount of fixed cost (e.g. salaried people, manufacturing facilities, office space, etc.) that is spread over a relatively small number volume of products, you have to apply a significant markup just to cover your costs.

 

To me, if you look at any publicly available data for any company along the MI hardware distribution chain (e.g. the Yamaha Annual Report and the Guitar Center annual report), I don't see these companies making tremendously large profits. This tells me:

-- there is competition among MI hardware companies

-- these high markups are necessary for companies to stay in business.

 

Also, when people complain about high prices they tend to look only at the manufacturer. Well, a large part of the end price you pay for a keyboard goes to the distributor and retailer. There are high markups all along the distribution chain, which leads to an overall "high markup" industry.

 

If someone can create a MI hardware company (or restructure an existing one) that can reduce these high markups, more power too them. I don't LIKE having to pay these prices (everyone would always like to buy something for less), but I think I understand why prices are what they are.

 

 

Originally posted by NuSkoolTone I do computers and software for a living, so I've got a clue. The R&D for the O, yup significant no doubt.

 

I have been in large system business software development for Fortune 100 companies for 15 years, and I have worked on software development projects as small as $100k and as large as $50 million. However, since I have never worked in the MI hardware industry, nor developed software for embedded systems like synths and keyboard workstations, I realize my own lack of knowledge about the REAL costs in the MI hardware industry.

 

Frankly, people who make statements like "just tweak your old code a bit, throw together some parts from your existing parts bin, and voila, you've got a new keyboard for practically nothing" really have no clue.

 

 

 

Originally posted by NuSkoolTone I agree with MIKE the OA$Y$ is OVERPRICED.. STILL!

 

To me, the word "overpriced" implies a VALUE assessment, which is not what I am talking about at all. Mike51 (and others) have made the assertion that MI companies, particularly the "big three" are "price gouging", implying they are setting retail prices that are excessive when compared to their real, underlying costs. I am simply disputing that assertion, saying these prices are normal given the economics involved.

 

 

Originally posted by NuSkoolTone THAT said, can we PLEASE get back to the Topic at hand and stop talking about last year's (And the year before) news and "Production costs"?

 

 

I am not sure what you expect to happen on this thread, given the fact that limited information has been released about the Motif XS AND additional information will not be released until January 10th.

 

I suppose we could all agree to stop posting until we have more information.

[MartinHines]

 

Originally posted by orangefunk Why does every thread end up talking about the OASYS?

 

 

I am trying to talk about the MI hardware industry in general, not about the OASYS at all. My reason for posting is an attempt to counteract the assertions that the Motif XS pricing is some type of "ripoff" or "excessive".

 

People may not think the price of the new XS is worth the money and that is fine by me, as long as they understand that is a VALUE judgement not rooted in the economics of the MI hardware industry.