Members Fatstrat57 Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 That's where the tone is. Power supplies and flying leads. Everyone knows it. 8^P No, it's a matter of build qaulity and reliability. Also, considering how many pedal consumers use AC power exclusively, and variable supplies for the dying battery nonsense, I'd say it's a sound decision to exclude a battery compartment. And that makes it okay. So if you write a song and someone covers it and doesn't pay you royalties, that's okay too. Because they're obviously not doing it for profit. Everything tells me that they're just doing it to dump the songs on a cd and dump them on the public. R-i-i-i-i-i-ight.Honestly, I don't give a rat's ass, but the rationale people use for cloning currently-made pedals is complete and utter {censored}e. As an "arm-chair" pedal builder I know how ridiculous it would be to try and clone and sell Zvex copies expecting profit, especially one that uses such rare parts in the case of the fuzz factory. The rational is sound. Considering the labor and parts costs, I'm quite sure he's not making a profit. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members forumbot#1992 Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Sheesh, here we go again. I think Zvex deserves every penny for his products. Sure, there may only be a few bucks worth of parts in his pedals, but the purchase price of the pedals has to pay for R&D, promotion, patents (not sure if any of his pedals are patented, but if they are, that's an easy ten grand to get one), and all the other stuff that's needed to bring a product to market, PLUS he's got to have a salary and that comes from selling pedals. I don't begrudge him for charging what he does. I don't own a Zvex, but if I were to buy one, I'd just get the original. Why save a few bucks on something like that?I guess I don't feel as bad about a tubescreamer copy because those pedals are pretty standard fare now. Zvex stuff is much more unique. A clone of a Zvex pedal somehow feels different than someone posting say a Keely mod to a Boss pedal.Final thoughts: this guy's from Germany? Maybe he should start working for Behringer. no no that logic doesn't fly sorry. A pedal copy is a pedal copy, you can't say zxex is unique and so should be protected. Somehow the thought of thinking it's tolerated to copy a tubescreamer because it's been around alot and therefore okay to do so, is irking me. It's either morally okay or morally not okay. Either legal or not legal. Since morals can be quite subjective, i'd stick to the legality of it all, which is (?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Devi Ever Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 edit- by the way, the idea that there is only $10 worth of parts to a pedal is ridiculous... Actually, if you buy in quantity and know where to find good, cheap parts, $10 is possible in a simple circuit (i.e. Zvex SHO, Lovepedal COT50, a lot of my pedals... ) You're right though... most dirt boxes are probably more like $25-$55 worth of parts. If you're paying more than that for parts, your paying too much. Overhead aside, I think most pedal makers are definitely a little greedy and lazy to boot. I'd love to see a new era of clones bring some true competition on a lot of levels to the boutique industry. IMHO it's become fat and complacent. Let's see some real innovation and inspiration people. Zvex got the ball rolling, now someone keep it going for god's sake. Oh wait... Malekko to the rescue!!!! devi- Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Actually, if you buy in quantity and know where to find good, cheap parts, $10 is possible in a simple circuit (i.e. Zvex SHO, Lovepedal COT50, a lot of my pedals... ) You're right though... most dirt boxes are probably more like $15-$25 worth of parts. If you're paying more than that for parts, your paying too much. Overhead aside, I think most pedal makers are definitely a little greedy and lazy to boot. I'd love to see a new era of clones bring some true competition on a lot of levels to the boutique industry. IMHO it's become fat and complacent. devi- Like Soda Meiser clones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shaun126 Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 I would be happy with anything that might happen that would bring on some kind of "price war", but then again im a consumer. I want things for as cheap as possible, period. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 I would be happy with anything that might happen that would bring on some kind of "price war", but then again im a consumer.I want things for as cheap as possible, period. Consumers don't win in a race to the bottom either. I bought a wall clock from Target months ago for $30 or something. It is battery powered and made in China. The movements still work. But after a month of ticking away the hour and minute hand fell off their posts so only the second hand moves. I get the feeling today that buying cheap stuff is like buying an approximation or a ghost of the real deal. It keeps getting worse and worse. The maker of that clock doesn't care if I have to buy another one already. As always you get what you pay for. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BandofThievesâ„¢ Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Immitation is a form of flattery. Unless it's a BYOC wah. RMC3 lame ass clone attempt.With not one mention of RMC.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L6Sguy Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 no no that logic doesn't fly sorry. A pedal copy is a pedal copy, you can't say zxex is unique and so should be protected. Somehow the thought of thinking it's tolerated to copy a tubescreamer because it's been around alot and therefore okay to do so, is irking me. It's either morally okay or morally not okay. Either legal or not legal. Since morals can be quite subjective, i'd stick to the legality of it all, which is (?)its quite a bit different ---- copies of the TS were coming out ages before the booteek thing happened. the boss sd-1 (1981) is a pretty straight across copy, and ibanez responded by doing.... nothing. then yamaha came along with the od-10mII, pretty much a TS.i'm pretty sure dod, and then peavey, came along with their TS w/slight variations.there were (dozens of) others, the names arent really important.but after doing nothing for so long, ibanez loses a little bit of ownership. and rightfully so.like strat copies. nobody runs a risk building a strat copy, and fender doesnt care, and at this point if they did, what judge would rule that the strat shape belongs to fender? it belongs to the guitar world, now.OTOH, try building/selling a ric copy. ric lawyers will be right up your ass in seconds. they continue to protect, and the guitar (shape/design/etc) remains theirs. zack is playing it rickenbacker. good for him Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t_e_l_e Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 just to clarify something: "Privatverkauf, keine Garantie" is a common used disclaimer on german/austrian even european auctions. its all about an EU law about selling used stuff. since 2 or 3 years we have the law, if you sell something used, the seller (not the producer or manufacture) have to give warranty and guarantee on the used product as it was sold new. so something between 6 months and 1 year, depending on the product, and this does not matter how old or how used the product is. the law was started out of the used car market, to avoid that consumers get ripped off with a almost dead car. like the eu always does they overshot their goal. you can't give warranty on everything you sell used, cause used is used and means used, and it is also ridiculous that the seller should provide the guarantee even if he has no contact to the producer. so it was to protect the end-consumer and they f...ed the seller on the used market. so thats why you see almost the same disclaimer on every german/austrian or europaen auction. i even don't know if this disclaimer is legit, or even with it you must give warranty as a used seller... as for this BoR clone, i haven't seen the auction, if it was new (from the builder) or second hand. anyhow if it was the builder himself, he doesn't want to give the same benefits as zvex himself with his life time guarantee, thats probably an additional reason why he can offer it cheaper.... anyhow, in general its hard to draw the line when cloneing/copying is ok and when its not but without copying/cloneing a lot of invention wouldn't have happened, a lot of songs wouldn't have been written and a lot of lawsuits wouldn't have been fought Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Its only a matter of time before someone gets their hands on a Centaur, reverse engeneers it and undercuts the {censored} out of Klon. If they do a {censored} job, it'll die a slow death. If they do a quality job, Klons profits will nosedive.The real question is would you buy one? I'd like to think I could hold off and save for the real thing......I mean it is ONLY an effects pedal....not like its crucial to my existance if I have that tone....... id disagree... there are lots of guys on ebay shilling clones, and stuff with ripped off PCB artwork from runoffgroove and general guitar gadgets .... most of it is god awful as far as looks, and you can see shoddy workmanship in quite a few of them from a low res ebay picture... Plus, the kind of people that buy Klons will probably continue to buy them... People that do this kind of stuff rarely get anywhere with it, and if they do, it's because they shift gears, and come up with something a bit more original. This business is pretty hard to make it in if your company lacks it's own personality. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members t_e_l_e Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Consumers don't win in a race to the bottom either. I bought a wall clock from Target months ago for $30 or something. It is battery powered and made in China. The movements still work. But after a month of ticking away the hour and minute hand fell off their posts so only the second hand moves. I get the feeling today that buying cheap stuff is like buying an approximation or a ghost of the real deal. It keeps getting worse and worse. The maker of that clock doesn't care if I have to buy another one already. As always you get what you pay for. welcome to the world of capitalism Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Final thoughts: this guy's from Germany? Maybe he should start working for Behringer. i think behringer has a PO box in germany, they certainly dont employ many people there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 welcome to the world of capitalism Call me old fashioned but I long for the days were capitalists brag about how well they pay their employees instead of how much longer their yacht will be once completed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 well to be technical, nothing is 100% clone. different brand caps, resistors, and hey what about the tolerance Even more than that though almost any guy that does this for a living has played around with that circuit before. You can get a TS7 for $50 which sounds pretty damn close to an original TS808. Thing is, that sound is pretty bland, and playing with the circuit a bit can yeild a sound that is somethign that people want... like a tubescreamer with more bass, or with out the mid hump, or a 3 band eq, or whatever else. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members dangerous dan Posted July 5, 2007 Author Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 i think behringer has a PO box in germany, they certainly dont employ many people there. I always thought tGermnay is where their R&R is located ? Or atleast thats the impression their website and press releases give. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shaun126 Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 I bought a wall clock from Target months ago for $30 or something. It is battery powered and made in China. The movements still work. But after a month of ticking away the hour and minute hand fell off their posts so only the second hand moves.I get the feeling today that buying cheap stuff is like buying an approximation or a ghost of the real deal. It keeps getting worse and worse. The maker of that clock doesn't care if I have to buy another one already.As always you get what you pay for. You can probably bet this isnt the norm, out of 10,000 of those clocks target sold, probably a handful of them crapped out. If its between taking that slim chance, or spending $200 for a nice USA made clock, i'll take my chances.. Maybe one day I'll be able to afford to do otherwise, but like many, I cant. SO until then... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members L6Sguy Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 ....As always you get what you pay for.like the woman who was under this pavement, who had paid for Boston's Big Dig. definitely got what she paid for.OTOH, sometimes it is the case, and that is exactly what is needed. to wit: i bought a pair of MIC scissors for $3 from a traveling salesman a few yrs back. scissors are still working daily around the house. i got what i paid for. cool. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 You can probably bet this isnt the norm, out of 10,000 of those clocks target sold, probably a handful of them crapped out. If its between taking that slim chance, or spending $200 a nuce, USA made clock, i'll take my chances. Maybe one day I'll be able to afford to do otherwise, but like many, I cant. SO until then... 1 in 10,000 is not remotely close to industry goals of six sigma 1 in a million. Crappy defense of the race to the bottom really. I bet if I bought the $200 clock the maker would repair or replace it. Maybe their employees would be able to earn enough to afford to buy better things and we could have a slow climb to the top rather than a race to the bottom... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members capnbringdown Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 So you'd also agree, if you released a song and someone covered it and didn't try to claim that they were you, they wouldn't owe you any royalties. That happens all the time. They call it rap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Fatstrat57 Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Call me old fashioned but I long for the days were capitalists brag about how well they pay their employees instead of how much longer their yacht will be once completed. I long for the days when people don't hate those who have prospered. Every bit of extravagance that an owner/ceo engages in employs many; of course you don't know any of them, but you benefit from their wealth. This sort of reactionary thinking is what gave Lenin is power. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members shaun126 Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 1 in 10,000 is not remotely close to industry goals of six sigma 1 in a million. Crappy defense of the race to the bottom really. I bet if I bought the $200 clock the maker would repair or replace it. Maybe their employees would be able to earn enough to afford to buy better things and we could have a slow climb to the top rather than a race to the bottom... I'm sure there are tons or reasons to buy the $200 clock. It might look prettier, it might be sturdier, it might have a LIFETIME warrenty! That doesnt change the fact that I cant afford the $200 clock, so I WILL choose the $20 chinese clock, as apposed to going clockless... THE END. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 That happens all the time. They call it rap. Sometimes they call it Jet. Other times they call it Nickelback except they copy themselves copying others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Brian Marshall Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Actually, if you buy in quantity and know where to find good, cheap parts, $10 is possible in a simple circuit (i.e. Zvex SHO, Lovepedal COT50, a lot of my pedals... ) You're right though... most dirt boxes are probably more like $25-$55 worth of parts. If you're paying more than that for parts, your paying too much. Overhead aside, I think most pedal makers are definitely a little greedy and lazy to boot. I'd love to see a new era of clones bring some true competition on a lot of levels to the boutique industry. IMHO it's become fat and complacent. Let's see some real innovation and inspiration people. Zvex got the ball rolling, now someone keep it going for god's sake. Oh wait... Malekko to the rescue!!!! devi- um, are you talking to me... honestly, there is no way i could make something for $10 that i would want to put my name on. hell for me once have a case, switch, screenprinting, and powder coating I'm over $10, especially if i add shipping in for the cases.Powder coating could probably be done cheaper, but the place is close, and i really dont want to drive down to portland in the middle of the day to pick {censored} up all the time.The way your are engaging me here is pretty annoying if im taking it the right way... and from the information you've offered up here on this forum and haunting mids in the last couple months, I'd say I'm buying more parts than you are. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members capnbringdown Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 Consumers don't win in a race to the bottom either. I bought a wall clock from Target months ago for $30 or something. It is battery powered and made in China. The movements still work. But after a month of ticking away the hour and minute hand fell off their posts so only the second hand moves.I get the feeling today that buying cheap stuff is like buying an approximation or a ghost of the real deal. It keeps getting worse and worse. The maker of that clock doesn't care if I have to buy another one already.As always you get what you pay for. That makes perfect sense. How many clocks do you really think you'll need in your lifetime? If they make it so it breaks, then you have to buy anohter one. If it lasted 20 years, they wouldn't sell as many clocks. Besides, they wouldn't want to have to pay someone a decent wage for making said clock. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members The Great Waldo Pepper Posted July 5, 2007 Members Share Posted July 5, 2007 I'm sure there are tons or reasons to buy the $200 clock. It might look prettier, it might be sturdier, it might have a LIFETIME warrenty!That doesnt change the fact that I cant afford the $200 clock, so I WILL choose the $20 chinese clock, as apposed to going clockless...THE END. You miss the point I am trying to make. If you buy quality you support businesses who are more likely paying their employees better than those in China. When the cycle continues those employees will buy the goods and services your employer offers and in turn your employer can pay you better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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