Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Tomorrow we're doing guitars for our demo. We did drums/bass last weekend and it sounds surprisingly good for a few mics going into a focusrite interface into logic. Since I don't have a suitable amp right now I'll be using our 'producers' tweed Blues Deluxe, which is more than adequate. Anyway, last time I recorded (with MHDH) the guy recording us insisted we double track everything, and to my mind I wasn't happy with the end result. Double tracking seems to weaken the impact of the sound to me, creating that kinda chorused sound, especially on cleans. Do you guys like to just do single tracks on guitars, or do you double stuff up? We have two guitarists so I guess it shouldn't sound empty even if we only track everything once. Also, miking....we have an SM57, a Senn 421 (or maybe a 609) and a couple of condensors, an SE Electronics sE1 or something. The engineer I work with said just stick the 57 straight into the front, right in the middle of the cone, touching the grill and go from there, maybe using another mic nearer the edge of the speaker cone for a slightly different sound, then mix to taste. So, how do you like to record guitars? Hopefully the demo should be done in the next couple of weeks, and I think it'll be excellent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gregovertone Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 for me, i rarely double track cleans. it just never sounds good to me. if you're aiming for a beefy gain sound, that's where double tracking can be beneficial. i'd use at least 1/3 less gain than you usually do when double tracking. that should help with clarity. try out all the mics, see what fits. sometimes i'll throw all of the mics on a cab just to see what works in the mix. honestly, despite being a classic, the 57 is the last mic i try (normally). i just seem to like every other mic more. mutt lange: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gregovertone Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah, I'm gonna avoid double tracking the cleans. We'll give it a try on the heavier bits, although I prefer a more raw albini style sound to the guitars rather than a metal style crunch. Also, we don't have a ton of time tomorrow and there's two of us. Probably better not to rush than do it all haphazard. So, with double tracking heavier guitars, as long as it's played tightly and as close as possible to the first part, you shouldn't get that 'chorused' type sound? That second lot of pictures seem like overkill. Why do you need so many mics when at the end the guitar isn't going to be able to take up the whole frequency spectrum anyway. Aren't 99% of classic guitar sounds just a single mic (often a 57?) or at the most 2/3 mics? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Goldenglove Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Now, I don't have experience recording real amps - but from what I've done with my interface and an amp sim - I'd doubletrack stuff only for hi-gain stuff or if I wanted some different notes at some point. All the clean-ish stuff I do, I just track it once. As for double-tracking heavier guitars - I just pan them left and right (70% or something like that). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Modellers seem to sit funny in a mix to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gregovertone Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah, I'm gonna avoid double tracking the cleans. We'll give it a try on the heavier bits, although I prefer a more raw albini style sound to the guitars rather than a metal style crunch. Also, we don't have a ton of time tomorrow and there's two of us. Probably better not to rush than do it all haphazard. So, with double tracking heavier guitars, as long as it's played tightly and as close as possible to the first part, you shouldn't get that 'chorused' type sound? That second picture seems like overkill. Why do you need so many mics when at the end the guitar isn't going to be able to take up the whole frequency spectrum anyway. Aren't 99% of classic guitar sounds just a single mic (often a 57?) or at the most 2/3 mics? those pics are definitely overkill just posting for fun. you really want to play your parts as exact as possible. it is effective, but if you're aiming for the albini sound, it's not going to get you there. he's more of using a few different types of mics (dynamic, ribbon, condenser) at a certain distance away from the cab. this way, there is a little more of the room, and it's not as in your face. (he also hates the 57 ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Even though his stuff sounds super in your face and raw? I just want them to sound big and raw. (doesn't everyone?) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Dr. Goldenglove Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Modellers seem to sit funny in a mix to me. Well, I record for fun/demos mostly, and I usually use my pedalboard and just a clean amp/cab sim. But anyway, panning distorted tracks works fine for me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Word. Greg, do you believe that it's important in a two guitar band for both guitarists to get pretty different tones? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Poltergeist Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 :) that has to be the most awesomely ridiculous thing i've ever seen Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gregovertone Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Word. Greg, do you believe that it's important in a two guitar band for both guitarists to get pretty different tones? not necessarily. they need to fit differently, but they can't be too drastically different, as it will be awkward. some times when they are too different, it becomes an weird listen as parts don't sit right (at least to me). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gambit Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 since you have 2 guitars- Instead of double tracking i'd suggest a close mic on each guitar part panned a little left for 1 and right for 2. Plus an ambient/ room mic on the same amp panned the opposite direction. Gives a sene of space without cluttering the mix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gregovertone Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 since you have 2 guitars- Instead of double tracking i'd suggest a close mic on each guitar part panned a little left for 1 and right for 2. Plus an ambient/ room mic on the same amp panned the opposite direction. Gives a sene of space without cluttering the mix. i like this Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members vinnies Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 i like this me too Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Cool, we may try this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members gambit Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 i fin it best If you treat the ambient mics like reverbs too. Like mixing them much lower so its just noticeable and maybe eq the low end off and tame the highs (high/low pass filters) depending on the room.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members RoboPimp Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 40 guitar tracks on every song Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 i fin it best If you treat the ambient mics like reverbs too. Like mixing them much lower so its just noticeable and maybe eq the low end off and tame the highs (high/low pass filters) depending on the room.. I would, but with the quality of plug in reverbs available these days, is it even worth it? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members six acre lake Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Modellers seem to sit funny in a mix to me. Don't tell Zygoat. I have had great experience with using Guitar Rig and Logic modellers for overdubs and the like. I do like to get the meat of a track from the amps / mics however. As you know we both favor the Albini sound and for that just use one ribbon mic sitting back a bit to capture the room. How far back and how much room sound is of course to your taste but I also like how mic placement can give you certain bumps in EQ and or vary things tone wise. I use a Fathead ll ribbon mic and I love to pair it with a Shure SM7... (not a 57) both very affordable mics and they produce stellar results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Yeah, both nice mics. We don't got your kinda mula though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Operator Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 I would, but with the quality of plug in reverbs available these days, is it even worth it? The douche purist in me says it is. I mean, you could tailor a plugin to match a space pretty perfectly (especially if you're using impulse and convolution reverb ) but to me I'd rather have the sound of the actual space it was recorded in. I think gambit's idea is a good one. My personal {censored} is not to double track unless it's some kind of really heavy part, but your previous producer's idea of default double tracking on everything is, to me, not a good one, for the reasons you mentioned. My band only has one guitarist, so to get a full sound without cluttering everything up with double tracking, we ran it to two amps, stereo mic'd, and panned them hard. It gives the guitar a really awesome, full, stereo image. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cirrus Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Personally as a starting point I'd hard pan the guitars left and right (don't be afraid of that) and start with one track of each. I usually double track overdriven guitar parts but I don't always use both takes in the mix. It's a technique I tend to use as part of a one guitarist band to sound big on record without screwing my ability to play the songs live. But if you've got two guitarists there will be an extra level of complexity and variety that might be more condusive to one track of each, then you can listen and decide case by case whether extra layers would benefit the sound you're going after. My take with miking is that you've got to use your own ears and spend plenty of time playing and listening back, moving the mics around to get a sound that is good to you. There's no best mike technique because not only are the physical variables totally infinite, the subjective call on what "good sound" even MEANS in the context of what you're doing is something that only you can decide. Sounds obvious I know but so many people look for a magic bullet answer to questions of mic positioning. As far as general rules, there's some good basics you probably already know like near the centre of the cone is brighter, edge is both darker and has more of the speaker's character, you can twist the mic off axis to get a similar effect, close into the speaker you'll get an artificial bass boost which might be exactly what you need or make the track sound muddy... If you use two or more mics, be aware of phase issues but don't let that paralyse you - sometimes a wonky phase relationship can be great sounding for the track so always use your ears to decide. If you've got one mic up close and one far away in my experience it becomes a non issue anyway and you've just got to look for where the room sounds good. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members zygoat Posted February 17, 2012 Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Maybe consider double tracking on certain riffs, even just parts of riffs if it makes things better overall. I double track everything for a few reasons, the main two being that my bass playing is really bland and follows the guitars pretty much, and I'm not good at getting a stellar sound out of one guitar by itself. Pure laziness, I know. But lately I've been listening harder to what one-guitarist bands are doing and sometimes they'll double up just a few notes here and there and I like the effect it has on the song. I think if your engineer gets a really nice guitar sound happening, and your bass player's parts are interesting, you can get away tracking single guitars, with maybe another track of guitar in key areas. Have fun man. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Loobs Posted February 17, 2012 Author Members Share Posted February 17, 2012 Thanks dude. Our bassist is pretty {censored}ing good and gets about the neck, so it's not like he's just plodding on the root. I hope it turns out good. I'm stoked on it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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