Members Urban Ghandi Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE Im dead serious Chris, I want to know what freedoms and liberties we have had stripped from us... I'd like to know too!Heck, I'd like some of my freedoms taken away...just tell me which ones so I can prepare. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Def_Pearl_Pilot Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE Im dead serious Chris, I want to know what freedoms and liberties we have had stripped from us... It's the precedent that it sets. Imagine that Italy becomes the next axis evil again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by Def_Pearl_Pilot It's the precedent that it sets. Imagine that Italy becomes the next axis evil again. Then {censored} them them up the ass Andrew, I very proud of my Italian heritage but Im American through and through even if I was born over there.... besides, Italy cant run their own damn country, what are they going to do? Throw Mozarrella and Cannolis at us? Fuggedaboutit!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members starsnuffer Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE What freedoms and Liberties have been taken away? I keep hearing this but Im wondering why it hasnt affected me yet? I travel abroad for work quite often. Did you know that you have more freedom in a Chineese airport then in a US airport? They don't frisk you, make you take off your shoes, or wait in lines. That's in a COMMUNIST country! Many international businesses, mine included, cannot conduct business over the phone as we once did because our clients are afraid they will be recorded and possibly have action taken against them for no reason other then expressing their opinions. This hurts our small businesses that are trying to work internationally. What liberties have been taken away? Privacy for one. The Patriot act was created to give the Government access to our private affairs. They call this "security". Our phones and our emails are tapped and monitored and logged. With the current regimes thinking that states, "if you're not with us, then you're not a patriot and you're anti-american", is it too far of a stretch to think that anyone speaking out against the regime could be considered a terrorist and held indefinatly without legal recourse simply because the Patriot act says so? Thats infringing on freedom of opinion, and is dangerously close to the government telling us how we should think, let alone act. Then we have the "department of homeland security". The last time we had to deal with an organization like this, it was called the Gestapo and we cited them as humanitarian terrorists. . . now, our government is embracing that facist control measure. I know that most Americans don't care. They're just sheep. They will do as they are told and think what the box in their living room tells them to think. So long as they can get in their SUV's, drive to the mall, and buy their clothes at the GAP, they could care less. With that in mind, it's not hard to see why our government thinks it can get away with telling people what to think. Media advertisment already does it, why shouldn't they? -W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by Def_Pearl_Pilot Kage, while the Patriot Act may not have personally affected you... actually, it might have but you may not know it... it has affected citizens of Middle Eastern descent. But who cares about them? They're not European immigrants. It makes sense though; Theyre the ones causing the problems...I havent seen any European immigrants blowing stuff up, not over here anyways.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members starsnuffer Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE It makes sense though; Theyre the ones causing the problems...I havent seen any European immigrants blowing stuff up, not over here anyways.... Well there was the Oaklahoma City bombing, oh, and all that Anthrax stuff. Plus, the biggest terrorist on Earth, the US government. Most of them are European immigrants and they love blowing stuff up on little pretext and even less good reason. Look, all people are capable of evil. Siding with a particular sect of evil people just because they are better at your personal brand of propaganda doesn't make a lot of moral sense, does it? -W Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Def_Pearl_Pilot Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE It makes sense though; Theyre the ones causing the problems...I havent seen any European immigrants blowing stuff up, not over here anyways.... I gotta be honest that this issue is something that I struggle with myself. In a way, profile is a necessary evil but at the same time it affects people that it doesn't need to. The bass player in my band is from Afghanistan. We would make jokes about him being a terrorist but one day he just snapped. Later on he apologized but explained that he saw this {censored} on a daily basis. I understood where he was coming from and felt he didn't owe me an apology of any sort. I had no idea how often he's been labeled a terrorist, even if in a passing "joke." I know that black people have been discriminated against but for what? Being lazy,stupid, or great athleticism, etc. How does that compare against being prejudged as a killer? That's at a much different level. And that's just based on how he looks. {censored} man, our bass player believes in bud(herb) more then he believes in god. LOL Imagine your privacy and rights taken away because you fit a certain profile? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by starsnuffer Well there was the Oaklahoma City bombing, oh, and all that Anthrax stuff.Plus, the biggest terrorist on Earth, the US government. Most of them are European immigrants and they love blowing stuff up on little pretext and even less good reason.Look, all people are capable of evil. Siding with a particular sect of evil people just because they are better at your personal brand of propaganda doesn't make a lot of moral sense, does it?-W LOL figures that youd mention mcveigh:rolleyes: as for the rest, If you say so and right back at ya.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE What freedoms and Liberties have been taken away? I keep hearing this but Im wondering why it hasnt affected me yet? If you've opened a bank account, you've been profiled. I know for a fact that certain brokerage firms require a drivers license to open an account with them, that information is then forwarded (with the new account application) to the office of Homeland Security. If there are any inconsistancies, you'll be contacted. Also, there have been numerous reports of people being detained for lengthy periods of time without representation or formal charges under the Patriot Act. Wasn't there a case where a suspected terrorist was held without being charged or having access to his attorney for over six months? (He was eventually released because there wasn't sufficient evidence.) Before the Patriot Act, that wouldn't have been possible...our Constitution didn't allow it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PlayboyChris Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by starsnuffer What liberties have been taken away? Privacy for one. The Patriot act was created to give the Government access to our private affairs. They call this "security". Our phones and our emails are tapped and monitored and logged. Wireless phones and e-mails have been tapped and monitored since their inception. Anyone who doesn't think so is clueless and naive. Originally posted by starsnuffer With the current regimes thinking that states, "if you're not with us, then you're not a patriot and you're anti-american", is it too far of a stretch to think that anyone speaking out against the regime could be considered a terrorist and held indefinatly without legal recourse simply because the Patriot act says so? If that were the case, don't you think half the people here, yourself included, would be sitting in a {censored}ing detention camp right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by starsnuffer I travel abroad for work quite often. Did you know that you have more freedom in a Chineese airport then in a US airport? They don't frisk you, make you take off your shoes, or wait in lines. That's in a COMMUNIST country! Good For China!!! Id be willing to bet that the amount of countries with strict airport securrity measures far outweighs the ones that dont.... Ill ask you again, How does this infringe upon your liberties and freedoms? Sorry dude, the rest read like typical rambling rhetoric and I couldnt be bothered. I also think that its a lot of BS as well... Hundreds if thousands of People all over the world voice their displeasure of our government and leadership on a daily basis, I have yet to see any McCarthian witchhunts as a result. you ll have to forgive me if I think that it has prevented your clients from doing business with you... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members ratter Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by Urban Ghandi I'd like to know too! Heck, I'd like some of my freedoms taken away...just tell me which ones so I can prepare. Amongst other things, it eliminates the need for the gov't to have probable cause before conducting certain types of searches. And in some cases no longer requires the gov't to notify someone that they have been the target of such a search.Probable cause being the reasonable belief, given the facts at hand, that a crime has been/is being committed. That's a pretty big f'ing deal, if you ask me. Whether or not it applies to me specifically, it's one of the foundations of our legal system, and it's a GOOD thing. When the gov't stops respecting the bill of rights, applying it only when/where they see fit, you're sliding down a very slippery slope, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PlayboyChris Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin If you've opened a bank account, you've been profiled. I know for a fact that certain brokerage firms require a drivers license to open an account with them, that information is then forwarded (with the new account application) to the office of Homeland Security. If there are any inconsistancies, you'll be contacted. If you were contacted in the absence of any inconsistencies, then I'd be concerned. Originally posted by Craggin Also, there have been numerous reports of people being detained for lengthy periods of time without representation or formal charges under the Patriot Act. Wasn't there a case where a suspected terrorist was held without being charged or having access to his attorney for over six months? (He was eventually released because there wasn't sufficient evidence.) Before the Patriot Act, that wouldn't have been possible...our Constitution didn't allow it. Define "numerous." And were these people American citizens? If not, they're not entitled to Constitutional protection, so that part of the argument doesn't apply to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin If you've opened a bank account, you've been profiled. I know for a fact that certain brokerage firms require a drivers license to open an account with them, that information is then forwarded (with the new account application) to the office of Homeland Security. If there are any inconsistancies, you'll be contacted.Also, there have been numerous reports of people being detained for lengthy periods of time without representation or formal charges under the Patriot Act. Wasn't there a case where a suspected terrorist was held without being charged or having access to his attorney for over six months? (He was eventually released because there wasn't sufficient evidence.) Before the Patriot Act, that wouldn't have been possible...our Constitution didn't allow it. All brokerage firms require a licensce now Erik... I wont deny that there is a very real danger of abuse where the PA is concerned; Someone needs to watch the watchers. Desperate times require desperate measures. That doesnt advocate trading freedom and liberty for safety either.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members jshaft37 Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE Good For China!!! Id be willing to bet that the amount of countries with strict airport securrity measures far outweighs the ones that dont.... Ill ask you again, How does this infringe upon your liberties and freedoms? have you done any international travelling? every airport i've been to outside the US (6 in europe) has been more relaxed than any i've been to in the US. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE All brokerage firms require a licensce now Erik...I wont deny that there is a very real danger of abuse where the PA is concerned; Someone needs to watch the watchers.Desperate times require desperate measures. That doesnt advocate trading freedom and liberty for safety either.... No arguments from me...I was just answering the question about how it affects our lives. (Truthfully, I doubt any of us even notice.) I suspect the majority of us have nothing to worry about, but if the watchers aren't watched... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by jshaft37 have you done any international travelling? every airport i've been to outside the US (6 in europe) has been more relaxed than any i've been to in the US. I have...and as much of a pain in the ass as it is, I'd rather have the extra security and bag checking over the alternative. (and for some reason...I always get singled out at the airports...I'm white and I have blue eyes...WTF???) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by jshaft37 have you done any international travelling? every airport i've been to outside the US (6 in europe) has been more relaxed than any i've been to in the US. Ive been all over the Globe, many times... That still doesnt answer the question about Freedoms and liberties... Especially in light of the things that have happened here.. By all means, pitch me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BrendanO Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 What does it matter if it's one, or numerous, or you yourself personally? Rights have been revoked, and erroded, and undermined. Who gives a {censored} if you personally have had a cop's hand up your ass? The fact that it's happening to anyone should be a cause for alarm and action. And even if they're not American citizens, shouldn't we afford the right to the same legal due process as our citizens? So what if they're not our citizens, does that mean they should get a basket of different treatments? (Even if they're illegally in the country, they should have the same right to due process for the deportation process). Y'know, the idea of being the better man, and extending them the courtesy to be given the rights (and civil liberties) of the legal system we're trying them under? I could care less if one person was deprived of a civil liberty once, or millions are deprived of all of them, every day. Same/Same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members STEEL KAGE Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by Craggin I have...and as much of a pain in the ass as it is, I'd rather have the extra security and bag checking over the alternative.(and for some reason...I always get singled out at the airports...I'm white and I have blue eyes...WTF???) Ditto to both!! why the hell is that? In the end, it doesnt bother me, My shoes go on and off in seconds... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by PlayboyChris Define "numerous." 70. Originally posted by PlayboyChris And were these people American citizens? If not, they're not entitled to Constitutional protection, so that part of the argument doesn't apply to them. 13 of the 70 were citizens, they were held less than 2 months...and were given apologies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members fancynapkin Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 His whole rant seems pretty undeveloped, for all the failures this administration encountered, he criticizes them for not putting up a memorial and for having a mini-series which he says: "possibly financed by -- the most radical and cold of domestic political Machiavellis," I mean, it makes you wonder why no one in power takes the anti-war crowd seriously. 13 million people have protested around the world against the war, yet they cant seem to change anything. Either we really are being run by facists, or maybe our methods of influencing the government should be through more reasonable ways, without the common socialist, defeatist, anti-capitalist taint, which has seemingly usurped these movements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Craggin Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE Ditto to both!! why the hell is that? ... Must be some covert conspiracy against us blue eyed degos. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Def_Pearl_Pilot Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by STEEL KAGE I wont deny that there is a very real danger of abuse where the PA is concerned; Someone needs to watch the watchers. That's the whole point bro. Who's watching the government? I don't care what party is in office. I want somebody watching them. But I'm certainly more concerned about the Bush Administration. They've been caught in so many lies(that are far more serious then lying about a blowjob) that I can't stand the thought of them having so much power. Ben Franklin: They who would give up an essential liberty for temporary security, deserve neither liberty or security Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members PlayboyChris Posted September 12, 2006 Members Share Posted September 12, 2006 Originally posted by Def_Pearl_Pilot Who's watching the government? And who's watching the watchers of the government? And then who's watching the watchers of the watchers of the government? As you can see, you can blow smoke about that forever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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