Members Weathered Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 This message is hidden because thefyn is on your ignore list. Uh oh, Chris. You must have said something to really piss of the little fella with bad teeth and a weaker mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Cibyl Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 We're not fighting terrorist in iraq, we're fighting insurgents. :lol: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members BrendanO Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 How is that having fun? Who said you had the monopoly on fun? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DoubleBarrel Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 I think its time for the UN (with a large amount of troops and gear supplied by the US) to take over as a peacekeeping force with a mandate to train troops and rules of engagement that permit firing to protect civilians rather than just fire if fired upon. That would provide a more respected entity in Iraq with a clear mandate, and it would free up some American resources to be spent in Afghanistan and Pakistan. I actually agree with most of what you and weathered have said in this thread. Exafro has also made a lot of sense the one part I disagree with you on is the UN. I agree they should be involved however.With a large amount of troops and gear supplied by the rest of the world except for the US & UK.Any involvement by the US will just be seen as more "imperialism" by the radical muslims. If we leave, we must leave completely, and let the UN handle it without our help or money. I hate the UN and think it's the biggest waste of money and resources ever. It's time for them to earn thier keep. If they can't, then it's time to scrap the UN and the World Bank, and start from scratch. Is it scary when I agree with you RD ? :poke: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 "Please lay out an argument next time rather than trying to educate me with knowledge I could have gotten from the newspaper this morning. I don't mean that to be an ass, but I have a lot of interest in this stuff and I study it academically. I'd love for a bit more in-depth of a conversation."How is that having fun? Your image of yourself "roughing it" it here with the common folk is sickening/patronizing.You are just here TO GET FRUSTRATION off your chest. Not to have a good time. You are frustrated at your treatment in this forum and you want "small internet persons revenge". When did I say anything about "roughing it"? It's because the academic world gets quite insular and can be removed from reality. It's not just academic vs. non-academic either -- there are all kinds of people on this board, and it's refreshing (if sometimes frustrating) to see all different viewpoints. You can keep repeating your bull{censored} accusation until your face turns blue. It's wrong and obviously so. I'm here for a bunch of reasons, but that's not one of them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 I actually agree with most of what you and weathered have said in this thread. Exafro has also made a lot of sense the one part I disagree with you on is the UN. I agree they should be involved however. With a large amount of troops and gear supplied by the rest of the world except for the US & UK. Any involvement by the US will just be seen as more "imperialism" by the radical muslims. If we leave, we must leave completely, and let the UN handle it without our help or money. I hate the UN and think it's the biggest waste of money and resources ever. It's time for them to earn thier keep. If they can't, then it's time to scrap the UN and the World Bank, and start from scratch. Is it scary when I agree with you RD ? :poke: I'm glad to hear that you do. :poke: I see what you're saying but there just won't be enough troops in that case. If, in some scenario, there were, we still need to finance and furnish the mission. Iraq is America's responsibility, and we have to live up to it somehow. We're not going to get anyone else on board with the attitude of "whoops, okay here you go, you guys clean up this giant cluste{censored} we created". While I agree with you that the UN, IMF, World Bank, WTO, NATO, and more should be scrapped and started from scratch, I think your approach shows a fundamental misunderstanding. The UN cannot "earn its keep". It only exists on the funding and support of its constituent countries. The reason it is in the shape its in today is largely because of that attitude exactly. Plus, in the words (I believe) of Dag Hammarskj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DoubleBarrel Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Plus, in the words (I believe) of Dag Hammarskj Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thefyn Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Who said you had the monopoly on fun? FYN = "FUN" in Renoir speak. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Actually I think the opposite. I think the UN makes things worse for the most part. Again, feel free to explain, citing historical examples. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the UN's place in international relations and world politics, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and see what you have to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Why? cuz the shock and awe never happened where it should have. cuz the radicals have the notion to set this situation up to bring their religious savior to bear and turn the world to islam. read about what ahminejihad endorses in his mind. Most that follow that legion HATE any western people that does not follow their outline. This war, terrorism, and the others that follow are religious. That is the most dangerous reason and compelling. Their fighters are promised a life of beauty and peace and prosper in death. Our guys get a reality check and maybe some GI bill or college credit. In death, they get whatever they believed would happen to them, although we don''t and are not nearly as convinced as islamic jihadists are in any comparison. The point of money being a driving factor for Western business has nothing to do with the war on the west. In many deeper studies, we've not seen the real events yet that this war on the west that radicals wish us to see. Theirs is one of religious conformity or death. Ours is business as usual. Our presence in those regions do slow things down a bit for their "goals". We just have not seen the worse of it from what I've read. When's the last time you saw Americans shouting in the streets and having large amounts of people burning other countries flags, dismembering captives and parading around ?? We don't do that, suggesting we are more civilized. If you look farther at them, you realize it's not being less civilized, its' being unified that is more enticing for them, more worry for the west. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Dude... HKSblade1.. I'm not trying to be an ass but I see no other way of saying this. What you just wrote shows that you know very little about what's up over there. Not least because you attributed a minority Shi'a (who are a minority anyway) belief to all radicals. Also -- Ahmadinejad. Or Ahmadi-Nejad. You're not wrong in feeling anger and frustration, but you should try to be better informed so you can give it a direction that is not self-destructive (and blind, misinformed anger always is). If you feel as strongly about it as you seem to, do a search for my name. I put up a reading list recently that will outline and put into perspective the inaccurate smattering of beliefs you threw up there. Sorry if I came off as an ass, but there was a lot of confusion in that post, and you seem very sure about a lot of inaccuracies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thefyn Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Why? cuz the shock and awe never happened where it should have.cuz the radicals have the notion to set this situation up to bring their religious savior to bear and turn the world to islam. read about what ahminejihad endorses in his mind. Most that follow that legion HATE any western people that does not follow their outline. This war, terrorism, and the others that follow are religious. That is the most dangerous reason and compelling. Their fighters are promised a life of beauty and peace and prosper in death. Our guys get a reality check and maybe some GI bill or college credit. In death, they get whatever they believed would happen to them, although we don''t and are not nearly as convinced as islamic jihadists are in any comparison.The point of money being a driving factor for Western business has nothing to do with the war on the west. In many deeper studies, we've not seen the real events yet that this war on the west that radicals wish us to see. Theirs is one of religious conformity or death. Ours is business as usual. Our presence in those regions do slow things down a bit for their "goals". We just have not seen the worse of it from what I've read.When's the last time you saw Americans shouting in the streets and having large amounts of people burning other countries flags, dismembering captives and parading around ?? We don't do that, suggesting we are more civilized. If you look farther at them, you realize it's not being less civilized, its' being unified that is more enticing for them, more worry for the west. Uh oh. He lives for these posts. EDIT. The snake has already struck. :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 No problem! There is a lot of misinformation. Depends on where you get it. I have friends stationed in AFG and Iraq, Egypt. Egypt being one that is guarded closely since that region is a target for overthrowing it's govt. At least acording to some people I've talked with. It's not just a threat anymore. I'm no expert in ME affairs and not meaning to spout things in teh wrong direction. Guys I work with from ME backgrounds have lived with those things I mentioned in their head. They said it's easy to bring desolate people to engage in terrorism when it is applied as religious duty. In the case of most terrorism, that is the objective.. martyr. I don't know, but the wars in the ME are not just Cheney and Haliburton. maybe on our part, but not on the ones we fight. Theirs is a bigger purpose than anything on earth. Most of my Muslim friends do not adhere to radical elements, but they are as fearful of the radical side. Most of these posts suggest the enemy as our GOVT. It's not. Go back to Israel's statehood and before that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DoubleBarrel Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Only if constituent countries have your attitude. And even then, it serves a purpose. Feel free to explain, using examples. I think you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the UN's place in international relations and world politics, but I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and see what you have to say. Explain to me your idea of what the UN's misson is, and what purpose they serve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBecker Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Dont get me wrong. I opposed the war in Iraq because I knew the american government was going to change Iraqi laws to bring males down and women up. For those who haven't figured it out, this is an old HC troll who used to come on all the time and spout his alpha-male hate speech until he was recently banned. Gayfagton or something like that was the old moniker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Weathered Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 For those who haven't figured it out, this is an old HC troll who used to come on all the time and spout his alpha-male hate speech until he was recently banned. Gayfagton or something like that was the old moniker. Ah.....Explains a lot. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Uh oh. He lives for these posts.EDIT. The snake has already struck. :-) Some others do too :poke: think about it another way. Most fighting against the west or this war on terror are unified. We are divided as it gets. Good thing, bad thing?? who knows Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 No problem! There is a lot of misinformation. Depends on where you get it. I have friends stationed in AFG and Iraq, Egypt. Egypt being one that is guarded closely since that region is a target for overthrowing it's govt. At least acording to some people I've talked with. It's not just a threat anymore.I'm no expert in ME affairs and not meaning to spout things in teh wrong direction. Guys I work with from ME backgrounds have lived with those things I mentioned in their head. They said it's easy to bring desolate people to engage in terrorism when it is applied as religious duty.In the case of most terrorism, that is the objective.. martyr. I don't know, but the wars in the ME are not just Cheney and Haliburton. maybe on our part, but not on the ones we fight. Theirs is a bigger purpose than anything on earth. You definitely have the right idea, and I agree with your last paragraph. It's important to keep it confined to talking about radicals though -- not everybody feels that way, as I'm sure you know. I definitely agree with what you said about bringing desolate people to engage in terrorism when it is applied as religious duty. I think that, combined with a few other factors, is the crux of the issue. Although I will say most suicide bombers actually come from middle class, relatively educated backgrounds -- weird, huh? You don't have to be an expert to learn about this stuff for sure. There are some really good books that will sort it out a bit if you're interested. Esposito's written some really good works on introducing Islam, and like I said, I wrote a book list on here a while back, but they may be longer than you want to bother with. Esposito's stuff can be pretty short. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Explain to me your idea of what the UN's misson is, and what purpose they serve. I asked you to explain your assertions first. Why did you ignore that part of my post? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members JBecker Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 FWIW, DB, the UN is largely ineffective, from what I've learned, because of the lack of US support (mostly due to anger over the tremendous disadvantage the US is at having the most money to spend but way less representation due to a 1 country, 1 delegate system that's flawed). Things the UN has done that are crucial to international cooperation... I think of one thing that is astonishingly important. They established that no one can fly international flights or be an Air Traffic Controller without speaking English. It was crucial for our network of international travel and cargo that there is a single language spoken by all the people coordinating this traffic and that was a UN mandated and enforced rule. The reason the UN doesn't work is because most countries, and most especially the US, don't want to give up even a modest amount of sovereignty to any world cooperative force because we just don't like each other that much. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Some others do too :poke: think about it another way. Most fighting against the west or this war on terror are unified. We are divided as it gets. Good thing, bad thing?? who knows Precisely man. We need to work together to understand our enemy, which will enable us to better defeat them. Oh, and part of that is knowing who is and who isn't the enemy. A better understanding of Islam and the cultural beliefs of the peoples that spread from Indonesia all the way to Morocco as a majority is vital to that understanding. It's so nuanced, it requires diligent learning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members HKSblade1 Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 I'm not just posting to get my message in. I post in areas of interest and if I have another side to toss out>> well. I can watch CNN, read a book, magz. All have spun things in many directions. As some Islamic friends of mine have told me is that WE don't really understand the whole situation. It's not taught, but in schools in the ME, they are shown and taught many things about the west. Most said they learned about how NON DEVOUT we are in ant religious form. That makes us "less" credible to them from any religious factor. I've asked these guys over and over what they think. When 9-11 hit, they were saddened. When we went into the war to remove SH, I was not enthused and thought here's a can of worms. My Islamic friends said this could be the start of a very very long war, not just on a people, but a way of life. I asked what does that mean??? He said study the 'crusades" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rememberduane Posted January 31, 2008 Author Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 I'm not just posting to get my message in. I post in areas of interest and if I have another side to toss out>> well. I can watch CNN, read a book, magz. All have spun things in many directions. As some Islamic friends of mine have told me is that WE don't really understand the whole situation. It's not taught, but in schools in the ME, they are shown and taught many things about the west. Most said they learned about how NON DEVOUT we are in ant religious form. That makes us "less" credible to them from any religious factor.I've asked these guys over and over what they think. When 9-11 hit, they were saddened. When we went into the war to remove SH, I was not enthused and thought here's a can of worms.My Islamic friends said this could be the start of a very very long war, not just on a people, but a way of life. I asked what does that mean??? He said study the 'crusades" Exactly man. The media is bad source for information on this because it just reinforces received wisdom. I'm actually at the University of Edinburgh and studying this stuff as part of a history degree. I plan on studying it post-grad as well. Its AMAZING to me how skewed and lacking the knowledge in media is. The books I offered, I've found in my studies. Hopefully they'll help if you're interested. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DoubleBarrel Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 The reason the UN doesn't work is because most countries, and most especially the US, don't want to give up even a modest amount of sovereignty to any world cooperative force because we just don't like each other that much.Couldn't agree more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members thefyn Posted January 31, 2008 Members Share Posted January 31, 2008 Some others do too :poke:think about it another way. Most fighting against the west or this war on terror are unified. We are divided as it gets. Good thing, bad thing?? who knows I just want to get the troops out of there, and let them manage themselves. To think they can't go on living without anyones help/policing in the aftermath is Western ego. If atrocities/huge corruption (larger than normal levels of corruption) take place then let the UN sort it out. Reparations SHOULD be made to them in the form of trade and GENEROUS forgien policy. And what is under their ground is theirs to regulate/negotiate. The way it stands, it is going to be years of talk, breakdowns and red tape while the US army stand in the quicksand. Its like Remeberduane...talk talk talk talk.. It was gung ho, quick as you like actions that got us in there before the rest of the world could figure out why the US and the UK were so eager (and that has come out in the wash) We need to get out just as fast. And pay the piper. The apologies should have $$$ tied to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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