Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I've been carrying this song in my head for a while now and I just did a quick sketch of it in GarageBand: http://dropbox.befuddles.me/files/Dance_with_Me_Sketch.mp3 It's a little different from my usual songs, since it's a lot more repetitive and sparse and not as obviously melodic, so I kind of feel a bit lost with it. But I like it for now, wondering if others see much potential in it. Yeah I know, the singing's off. My singing's always off. And the guitar, I haven't figured out what they should play, although I was trying to do a David Byrne thing. And the drums, I haven't figured out the exact swing it needs. But anyway, I just want to know if this song is worth working on, or if it's crap. Thanks Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted February 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2011 I love the verse. I don't like the chorus. After the clever unraveling of the groove, then the voice (which I like a lot by BTW), we end up at the chorus which is bit too Hokey Pokey for my taste. Without any irony. So... my input: Don't worry about the things you expressed concern for. The drum groove, the voice. That's all good. Develop the very cool melody of the verse more. Not enough variation and development of the initial verse motive. Then explode into a chorus more fitting. As far as feel goes. You go from a mildly staccato feel in the verse to something very staccato in the chorus. I'd do what you did as far as more rhythm motion in the chorus but add under it a groove. Not a jerk. So, I think it is well worth working on. I'm just not sure what it is yet. What are you saying? Is there irony? Play that up. Sincerity? Play that up. That's my off the cuff, honest reaction. Good stuff that needs development with a target. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 Do you find that the chorus melody is no good, or that the groove behind it is lacking? The former would be tough to fix, although I could try, but the latter is easier to work it. Then again, I had a song I had in my head for 9 years before I wrote the right chorus for it, so sometimes, I have to do what I have to do. I always tend to write better verses than choruses. Sometimes I have a chorus melody in my head, then write what I consider to be throwaway verses for it, then two months later, I only like the verses. I would definitely agree that I'm not building it up correctly. The chorus is definitely not as huge as it needs to be. If I'm going to play fewer notes in the chorus, each one needs to be bigger. As for developing the verse, it's just a bit alarming how long the song becomes at the current pacing and I really don't want the song to get in the 4 minute range. I've just never tried something like this before. The song's not ironic at all, it's just supposed to be a happy song, like most things I write. Oh, and thanks for listening! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Oswlek Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 The verse vocal melody almost sounds more like a backing track to me. The kind of gentle swaying track that balances the more quirky, rapidfire lead vocal. The verse music is defintely doable. The drums work, but sound like a loop. Get a real kit in there and toss a few changes in and the whole thing would sound much more alive. I really like the keys around the 2:00 mark. They're a great lead back to the verse. I'm with Lee on the chorus. I'd scrap it and completely move on to something new. If you are really married to it, perhaps use that part as a bridge, or a change at the very end of the song. But it doesn't work as the hook, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted February 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2011 OK. So there's no irony. I get it. I think the chorus is a bit too lightweight for the great verse. If you were to keep the melody, I'd still sing it more legato. You're emphasizing the sharp rhythm. No need. The rhythm itself does that. And... I'd work a more traditional groove with your kick and snare and a driving bass on 8ths. Just some ideas. As it stands now, the reason I ask about intended irony or not, the chorus, doesn't really need to be built up as much a kick into a groove. A real groove. The groove you have now when you're talking about dancing is counter that. Play with some rock and pop stuff to get it to push and glide. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted February 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2011 As for developing the verse, it's just a bit alarming how long the song becomes at the current pacing and I really don't want the song to get in the 4 minute range. I'm not suggesting you add more to the verse. I think you could do more when you repeat some of the melody. The second half of the verse tends to repeat when it could be developing the theme. Same amount of bars. Just changing what you have a bit... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 Yeah, I have no means for a drummer right now, it's definitely a loop. I think the part of the problem for me right now is the swing, though. Right now, it's just not the right swing (it's more thirds than swing) and when I try to have a busier beat, it just doesn't sound right. I definitely can't have a situation where the verses have more of a groove than the chorus, that I see now. Maybe I should have a similar beat and held chords. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I really enjoyed the keyboard melody (with the bass carrying the chorus melody) at the end of the first chorus. And the chorus melody is usable imo -- it has a real innocent nursery rhyme quality to it. I think that would make a great interlude between verses (without lyrics or different ones). Just a note, not all songs have to have a chorus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I really enjoyed the keyboard melody (with the bass carrying the chorus melody) at the end of the first chorus. And the chorus melody is usable imo -- it has a real innocent nursery rhyme quality to it. I think that would make a great interlude between verses (without lyrics or different ones). Just a note, not all songs have to have a chorus.Thanks! That's actually currently my favorite part of the song, I call it the "Mozart." It comes from an effort to have an instrumental break or a solo in all my songs in an attempt to make them three minute songs instead of two. And maybe that's kind of what Lee's suggesting at, that the chorus melody can be part of a more interesting groove and the chorus should be more like that. Yeah, I'm leaning toward keeping the "chorus" since it's definitely in my style and just making it sound really cool, though not necessarily catchy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 It seems like you are concentrating on production issues rather than songwriting issues in some of your posts. Strip down the production concerns and issues and just concentrate on songwriting ones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 It seems like you are concentrating on production issues rather than songwriting issues in some of your posts. Strip down the production concerns and issues and just concentrate on songwriting ones.Oh, of course. It's just that I think a lot of my songs require the right arrangement or just fall flat. I think it's tough to separate pop songs from the production. Also, the "Girl Next Door" song I posted is a song that I wrote as a 16 year old, note for note, and I'd never change it because then, I couldn't say I wrote it when I was 16. Anyway, I completely overwrote my last post, haha. http://dropbox.befuddles.me/files/Les_Kapowskis_New_Girl_Next_Door.mp3 I just wanted some feedback whether this song is too sloppy (other than the obviously autotuned vocals that I will replace). I know there are some blatant mistakes on second guitar but I kept them in there and I want to know if they add or subtract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted February 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2011 It seems like you are concentrating on production issues rather than songwriting issues in some of your posts. Strip down the production concerns and issues and just concentrate on songwriting ones. I agree. The reason I mention groove is because to some extent, the subject matter is about groove. Bit I think you're right. Concentrate on the song itself. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I agree. The reason I mention groove is because to some extent, the subject matter is about groove. Bit I think you're right. Concentrate on the song itself.I personally find it a bit difficult to focus on the song itself because I'm so inspired by the way that my favorite bands sound, more than just the songs themselves. My #1 inspiration for songwriting is Tiger Trap. Have you heard them before? They're best all girl band ever in my books. Here's one of their songs: [video=youtube;km9VJgSKEPg] I copy this band a lot. Tiger Trap wrote some great songs, but for me, the thing that makes the band for me is the way the vocals weave with the lead guitar and how this makes simple songs that much more interesting. I know I can't copy them songwriting-wise because Rose always seemed like she's one of those people who fits music to words, whereas I fit words to music, which results in a different vibe altogether. But the sound, I feel like I can capture that in a bottle. And since there are not very many Tiger Trap fans out there and I'm not a pop punk band, I can copy the sound and still sound fresh enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 A bad arrangement won't ruin a good song; a bad song can't be saved by a good arrangement. Pop music is filled with great songs that don't need production or arrangements to make them great. Listen past the surface production and go deep into the song. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 A bad arrangement won't ruin a good song; a bad song can't be saved by a good arrangement.Although mostly true, I feel like I write pretty standard guitar pop songs and without an interesting arrangement full of personality, they're just not very remarkable. Also, I never write a song without some idea of how it should sound in my head. Sometimes the whole point of a song I'll write will be because I wanted to find two weaving melodies that sound interesting, things like that. Without worrying about production and arrangement, many of my songs wouldn't exist. I don't particularly feel that my preoccupation with the sound of songs prevents me from writing well. This song that I posted in this thread is obviously a work in progress and I felt a bit out of my element and a little stuck, so I wanted input, and I feel like I have a better idea now. For the most part, though, I think that I write pretty good songs. At least I like them. Or when I don't, that's fine because I write enough songs that I have good and bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rockinrobby Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 The singing's a little off. And the guitar, it seems like maybe you haven't figured out what they should play, although I was getting a David Byrne vibe. And the drums, don't have the exact swing it needs. And it seems a lot more repetitive and sparse than your other stuff, and not as obviously melodic. (sorry about that, I couldn't help myself :-) It seems like a fun tune? But it's not doin it for me personally. But a lot of people like stuff like this, I'm more oriented toward pop/country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Moderators Lee Knight Posted February 4, 2011 Moderators Share Posted February 4, 2011 Although mostly true, I feel like I write pretty standard guitar pop songs and without an interesting arrangement full of personality, they're just not very remarkable. Which is all the more reason to pay attention to the song, sans arrangement. I agree with what you're saying to some extent, but personally, I think the most improvement for what I listened to of yours would be in the songwriting phase. Prior to any arrangement. I don't feel arrangement is going to alleviate those issues. Having said that... what the eff do I know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 If you feel that your songs are unremarkable without an "interesting arrangement full of personality", then I'm not really sure what to say. You sound more like a producer than a songwriter, though even producers will admit that you need great songs before you can apply great productions. The song's the thing -- this isn't mostly true, it's truth. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members honeyiscool Posted February 4, 2011 Author Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 Well, I haven't posted a song that's actually representative of my style, the song in the original post is hardly done, and the other song is one I wrote as a 16 yr old. I actually think it's a very well written song, though, some of the better lyrics I've written, but it's not a very arrangement-dependent song, it'd be a fun little song no matter how I played it. But take this song, for instance: http://dropbox.befuddles.me/files/Les_Kapowskis_When_You_Smile.mp3 The arrangement is critical to this song. Sure, it could be arranged another way, but then it'd go away from what I want from the song, and then the song is meaningless to me because I feel like all my songs should be very me, whether at the writing or the arrangement stage. Please, I don't mean to sound defensive, but I am convinced that if I started just writing songs in a vacuum, I would definitely have a more different sound, and I'm not sure I want that. I want my songs to reflect who I am. And of course I'm the producer, too. You have to be when you do everything. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Stackabones Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 I get the feeling we're talking about radically different things, so I'll step out of this thread and let it roll. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members LeonardScaper Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 Although mostly true, I feel like I write pretty standard guitar pop songs and without an interesting arrangement full of personality, they're just not very remarkable. I just listened to all of the songs that you referenced here in this thread. They may well be pop songs, but I didn't come away thinking of them as 'standard'. You have a very unique style, both vocally and arrangement...ally. I got an interesting glimpse of your personality from this brief listening experience. I think that is an important aspect of songwriting. Put yourself into your songs....sincerely....and they are bound to be different. Oh...btw....none of them are crap. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members DukeOfBoom Posted February 4, 2011 Members Share Posted February 4, 2011 woah, this is whacky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members Chicken Monkey Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 Really dig the verse groove. The robot drums and the very human guitar mesh beautifully. The melody is good; the singing style is too mush-mouthed to get your lyrical point across. The chorus sounds like you're taking the piss. I like sing-songy, but you're singing exactly what the guitar is doing (or vice versa). It sounds like you're making it up as you go along. And I still can't hear the lyrics. "The Mozart" is killer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members rsadasiv Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 Really dig the verse groove. The robot drums and the very human guitar mesh beautifully. The melody is good; the singing style is too mush-mouthed to get your lyrical point across.The chorus sounds like you're taking the piss. I like sing-songy, but you're singing exactly what the guitar is doing (or vice versa). It sounds like you're making it up as you go along. And I still can't hear the lyrics."The Mozart" is killer. +1. Certainly not crap. The chorus could use some work. I'm on the fence about the drums in the verse, but I'm pretty picky about my reggae grooves and I was not at all offended. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Members blue2blue Posted February 5, 2011 Members Share Posted February 5, 2011 I've been carrying this song in my head for a while now and I just did a quick sketch of it in GarageBand:http://dropbox.befuddles.me/files/Dance_with_Me_Sketch.mp3It's a little different from my usual songs, since it's a lot more repetitive and sparse and not as obviously melodic, so I kind of feel a bit lost with it. But I like it for now, wondering if others see much potential in it.Yeah I know, the singing's off. My singing's always off. And the guitar, I haven't figured out what they should play, although I was trying to do a David Byrne thing. And the drums, I haven't figured out the exact swing it needs. But anyway, I just want to know if this song is worth working on, or if it's crap.Thanks Certainly not Crap. And I appreciate how it combines a number of stylistic threads not normally found in the same sonic tapestry... everything from reggae to music hall, and a number of things not in between. Unlike others, I didn't warm up to the keyboard thing. I'll maybe wait and see on how the beat develops. I wasn't sure it was working for me here. I wasn't able to make out much of the words -- and I usually don't give extended comment on lyrics, anyhow, unless they're posted somewhere, as I have a tendency to mondegreenize them ("Excuse me, while I KISS disguise"). I'm not sure the the current approach is really working for me, but it's certainly intriguing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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