Theory for Songwriters

[Mahuska]

Lee let's just face it your a songwriter bar none. But I cant see you over-thinking things in this thread I appreciate when you just let things flow. Just do what feels right brother. Might seem simple or lame
but this is my $.02

[Lee Knight]

Lee let's just face it your a songwriter bar none. But I cant see you over-thinking things in this thread I appreciate when you just let things flow. Just do what feels right brother. Might seem simple or lame but this is my $.02

 

 

I'm not sure what you just said. I'm sorry.

 

But let me try. "I appreciate when you just let things flow. Just do what feels right brother" If you're saying I should just set all the theory aside and just write with the flow, that is what I do. I don't think about theory when writing.

[rsadasiv]

Inspired by this thread (and a previous hint from shotchord) I've been trying to write this month's challenge song using (virtual) pencil and paper/notation in Finale.

 

It's slow going so far (mostly due to having to learn the mechanics of Finale) but hopefully I'll have some concrete examples to show soon...

[Lee Knight]

cool! ^^^

[shortchord]

Inspired by this thread (and a previous hint from shotchord) I've been trying to write this month's challenge song using (virtual) pencil and paper/notation in Finale. It's slow going so far (mostly due to having to learn the mechanics of Finale) but hopefully I'll have some concrete examples to show soon...

 

 

Yeah, the bad news is that Finale has a pretty high learning curve. The good news is that once you do learn it, it can do just about anything that you would ever need.

[BryanMichael]

Lee let's just face it your a songwriter bar none. But I cant see you over-thinking things in this thread I appreciate when you just let things flow. Just do what feels right brother. Might seem simple or lame but this is my $.02

I think it's more like a blueprint. Even the rudimentary theory I understand has helped me "make stronger choices" in composing, but it is usually after the fact, when I get stuck or decide that I need SOMETHING that I decide to sit down and try some different things by THINKING about them. It's not intuitive to me at all.

[Oswlek]

I think it's more like a blueprint. Even the rudimentary theory I understand has helped me "make stronger choices" in composing, but it is usually after the fact, when I get stuck or decide that I need SOMETHING that I decide to sit down and try some different things by THINKING about them. It's not intuitive to me at all.

 

That is how a lot of theory is applied. Virtually every songwriter I know who has a good theory base still has the same "cage free" approach when coming up with stuff, and then uses their brains to whittle it down afterward.

 

And I think you probably intuit more than you realize. For instance, you probably know that if you are going from G to C, making the G a 7th chord really heightens the desire to resolve to C. Whether you can speak to the process isn't as important as understanding the tonality.

 

Same goes for chords. I use a lot of variations on stuff and early on I had to invest a good deal of time just searching for the right one. Now, when the chord plays in my head, I am much more capable of hearing whether what it is. Whether I can name the chord properly isn't as important as knowing what notes are added/subtracted. I'd be willing to bet that is something you've absorbed over time as well.

[Folder]

Whether I can name the chord properly isn't as important as knowing what notes are added/subtracted.

 

 

I don't think I know what the proper names to most of the chords in my songs are.

Now if you were to ask me what they were I could probably figure them out and tell you what they are. But I would probably tell you something like it's an "a minor" in the right hand with a "f note" in the left hand. I know that technically this would be an "F major 7th" chord but I rarely ever think this way.

 

I'm sure that my songs have 6th chords and all kinds of 7th chords and diminished chords and chords I've probably never even heard of. But when I'm writing songs I'm only thinking about whether the notes of a chord are either in the key or out of the key.

 

I'm making up the chords as I go along.

[Mark Blackburn]

If you'll permit another short musical break -- to help with a question I have about the proverbial 'lost chord.' Thanks in advance to the assembled musical talent here (I can't read music but I'm loving this thread . . . and proceeding very slowly, on guitar). My question:

Remember the Michael Jackson song, "MAN IN THE MIRROR"?

[sheilaaellis44]

Well, I can suggest you to write your thoughs but in a disguised way... like you feel sad, like nobody cares about you don't write "I'm sad, nobody cares about me!!" instead, write "A new dark stage is coming now, who knows what happens next", when you wanna talk about yourself try to paint you as a second or third person, it's more poetic, mysterious.

Then if you play some instrument try to play regular chords progressions like C - F - G... or G - C - D... and try to make the melody of the lyrics you wrote, make them rime, then if you wanna change things up, leave fading little spaces... then add some other chords, if nothing of this works for you look for some poetry course or something like that.

Other thing, analyze the songs you like and try to find the stories behind the songs in biographies or wikipedia, you'll see they're about common feelings... find your style and luck!!!

[shortchord]

 

I'm making up the chords as I go along.

 

 

It's probably more accurate to say that you're discovering existing chords. The Beatles thought that they discovered a new chord when they added a sixth to the major chord on the last note of "She Loves You." But as we saw from the Mack the Knife example earlier in this thread, that I6 chord was in common use long before the Beatles.

[Marshal]

Music Theory for songwriters:

 

Find a pretty girl. Treat her nice. Fall in love. Be happy. Go out on double date with girlfriend's best friend. Best friend smiles at you. You smile back. Girlfriend gets upset. Both girls cry and make up and leave you all alone.

 

In your lonely spare time, pick up guitar and learn 3 chords.

 

Write sad song.

[Lee Knight]

Music Theory for songwriters: Find a pretty girl. Treat her nice. Fall in love. Be happy. Go out on double date with girlfriend's best friend. Best friend smiles at you. You smile back. Girlfriend gets upset. Both girls cry and make up and leave you all alone. In your lonely spare time, pick up guitar and learn 3 chords. Write sad song.

 

 

Oh boy... Reading Wayne Dyer again?

 

"Write sad song". Sure, if you have the vocabulary to do it. Three chords is plenty. And you can stay right there. But you don't have to. It's not like you're becoming less in touch with emotion or truth if you decide to go further with a study. God, I really hate that notion.

[shortchord]

I love a great three chord song. But man, what a boring place the musical world would be if there were only three chord songs.

[Oswlek]

 

It can be voiced on guitar like this: X5456x. Some other songs that use this chord include Purple Haze by Jimi Hendrix, Shining Star by EWF, and a lot of James Brown songs.

 

 

Probably my favorite usage:

 

 

 

If you can't tell, it is the second to last chord prior to the Em resolve at the end of the bridge (3:12 and 3:57). So cool how they then jump over E to a D# (would that be a b8?) making the return of the E even more pronounced.

[shortchord]

If you can't tell, it is the second to last chord prior to the Em resolve at the end of the bridge (3:12 and 3:57). So cool how they then jump over E to a D# (would that be a b8?) making the return of the E even more pronounced.

 

 

It's really a b9, so it's an Eb rather than a D#:

 

G D7(#9) D7(b9) | Em9

 

In interviews, Rick Wright has said that progression was inspired by Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.

[rsadasiv]

 

It's really a b9, so it's an Eb rather than a D#: G D7(#9) D7(b9) | Em9 In interviews, Rick Wright has said that progression was inspired by Miles Davis' Kind of Blue.

 

 

Whenever I hear a half-step modulation I think of "So What".

[Mark Blackburn]

You're my new favorite person around here (shhh, don't tell the two "Lees"). My wife just asked about the two adorable faces in your avatar. One of them you, when you were little? That's my guess.

 

You explained this D7#9 chord so well -- while reminding me of where I'd heard it ("the lost chord" effect). That EWF tune was my favorite from the 70s! And of course -- James Brown used it all the time! I am just so grateful for this -- thanks for your time and trouble.

 

[D7#9] can be voiced on guitar like this: X5456x. Some other songs that use this chord include Purple Haze by Jimi Hendrix, Shining Star by EWF, and a lot of James Brown songs.

 

Here's a tip that is employed frequently by jazz guitarists. You can voice a lot of complicated chords on guitar if you know which notes can be omitted without changing the essential character of the chord.

 

For example, you can almost always omit the fifth of a chord when voicing it on guitar without losing the essential character of the chord, unless the fifth itself is altered, because the root-perfect fifth interval is very consonant, so the fifth doesn't add much to the chord compared to some of the other chord tones. So with the D7#9 chord, for example, the voicing I show above includes the root (D), major third (F#), minor seventh © and sharp nine (E#) of the chord, but does not include the fifth (A). If a chord has an altered fifth (like an augmented chord, which would be root, major third, augmented fifth), then it would be important to include the fifth.

 

Believe it or not, the next most likely note to omit after the fifth is the root, particularly if the guitar is playing in an ensemble where the bass or piano will be playing it. Listen to the Count Basie Orchestra. Most of what Freddie Greene played in his guitar parts consisted of "shell voicings" that contained only root, third and seventh (or root, seventh and third, depending on the chord), and omitted fifths and upper extensions. In fact, because of the unique way that he held his guitar, most of the time he primarily struck just the third and seventh without the root.

[shortchord]

You're my new favorite person around here (shhh, don't tell the two "Lees"). My wife just asked about the two adorable faces in your avatar. One of them you, when you were little? That's my guess.

Nope, they're my sons, Drew and Luke. They're now 9 months old, but the picture is from about two months ago. I'll probably be updating the avatar pic soon with a more recent photo.

[Mark Blackburn]

We have a

[Folder]

Edit: Yes, it's a D7#9 chord, which is a D7 chord (D F# A C) with a raised ninth (E#).

 

I know D7#9 is the correct technical term for this chord.

But I have always thought of the #9 as a flat third.

 

You have the major third on the bottom and the minor third on top.

That's what I've always thought gives it that oomph !

[saturn1]

 

I know D7#9 is the correct technical term for this chord. But I have always thought of the #9 as a flat third. You have the major third on the bottom and the minor third on top. That's what I've always thought gives it that oomph !

 

 

I agree, that's what makes this chord so distinctive, it's major and minor at the same time. Much like sus4 chords seem neither major nor minor (as opposed to an 11th chord)

[Canvas]

I'll check it when I have an instrument in hand, but my first guess from listening to the link you posted is a 7#9 chord. Edit: Yes, it's a D7#9 chord, which is a D7 chord (D F# A C) with a raised ninth (E#).

 

I think the context is important as well... The song is in G major, and there is no E# in that scale. It's not a change to G Mixolydian either because there is no F# in that mode. Maybe there's a pivot chord before, I don't have time to check. Whoever asked, have some fun in G then throw in a F-F# trill, you'll see how weird it sounds.

It's also nice to use instead of iii in major keys and v in minor keys, because it stacks the leading note of the harmonic minor (or its fifth mode, if in a major key) and the subtonic of a natural minor, so it'll give you that jazz-funk feel. Try playing Am then E7#9 or C then E7#9 and rejoice. Cool way to use a leading tone in a minor key without sounding like Bach, I feel, not that that's ever a bad thing.

@Mark: He's adorable!

[shortchord]

 

I think the context is important as well... The song is in G major, and there is no E# in that scale.

 

 

True, but neither is there an F natural in that scale. The chord is not diatonic to G major.

 

 

It's also nice to use instead of iii in major keys and v in minor keys , because it stacks the leading note of the harmonic minor (or its fifth mode, if in a major key) and the subtonic of a natural minor, so it'll give you that jazz-funk feel.

 

 

I think that is what you see in this example, and the 7#9 chord is borrowed from G harmonic minor. It doesn't fit neatly into that analysis, but I think that discussion starts to get beyond the scope of this thread.

[Canvas]

Are E# and F not the same thing? I'm not talking about the name of the chord, if that's where the confusion is stemming from. What I'm saying is to understand why that chord has such an otherworldly sound, you have to see in which context it's used. The absence of an F in G major is what makes it sound so odd. Had it been used instead of the I chord it would have had a different sound, because then it would be playing on the absence of A#. I don't think the chord is diatonic to anything, doesn't even fit in the harmonic minor as far as I can tell. It does fit into the melodic minor if the root is the subtonic, but it's called melodic minor for a reason...